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Cap Acceleration for Cutting Jordan?
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m52876


Joined: 27 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:49 pm    Post subject: Cap Acceleration for Cutting Jordan? Reply with quote

Does anyone know more about what it would cost us to cut Lamont Jordan? I have seen quite a few "cut Jordan" posts on this board. I do not necessarily agree with that, but I do understand how the Nation could feel that way. That being said, is there a resident capologist in the midst? This is the best detail I can find on his contract.

Five-year deal worth $27.5 million -- including a $7 million signing bonus -- $11million in guaranteed money and $17.8 million over the first three years, includes $15.7 in bonuses.

Does anyone know how much $$ would accelerate? I know that based on 17.8 for the first three years he is on the books for just under 6 million next year. I am not sure how much of that would accelerate though. It is easy to SAY, "cut him," but depending on how much dead money would be on the books I am not sure that is so wise.
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nickdawg


Joined: 07 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm usually good at this, but there's no way to be accurate, because we don't know how much money is due in which year. But, for the sake of doing some math...

4.2 mil in dead money, if we were just talking the 7 mil bonus over 5 years. Which is 1.4 mil a year. (1.4 x 3 years left = 4.2 mil.)

Now, take into account his base salary, which WON'T count against the cap if he were to be traded or released.

1 mil. base next year, 4.7 mil in '08, and 5 mil in '09. Total of 10.7 mil in base salary. So we'd see a relief of that much over the next three years. But, that's irrelavant. The important thing is, relief right now.

As far as immediate relief, if he were released now, we'd have 3.2 mil in dead money (4.2 mil bonus as penalty - 1 mil in base = 3.2 mil dead money). If he were released after June 1st, we'd have 1 mil free to use right away, and a cap penalty next year of 4.2 mil. Or, because of a new rule, we could spread said cap hit over two seasons to make it more manageable.


But, with the cap going up to $116 mil next year, there's really no financial reason to get rid of Jordan.
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m52876


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Nickdawg,
Don't we need to pay him at least that full that full 4.2? It is all s. bonus, no salary included. Shouldn't it be 4.2 plus his base (which of course would not matter if he were cut), as opposed to minus his base? I am not sure though.

I did not mean to imply that their is finacial reason to cut him. I was actually saying there is financial reason to keep him. I hate dead money. I have seen it destory teams. I would rather have him on the team, as a change of pace guy then just sending him on his way to sign with another team. In that case, we get nothing, and we are still paying him. I would rather pay $5+ million a year for a backup than $4+ million a year for a gu that is not even on the team. It seems like his contract was front-loaded and hanging on to him for at least one more year makes sense.
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Barnett56


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you guys really think you'll cut Lamont Jordan? Has this been talked about by personnel?
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Oaktown


Joined: 29 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Far tougher decisions are in store concerning running back LaMont Jordan and wide receiver Ronald Curry. Jordan is due a $4.75 million roster bonus, Curry a $5 million one.

Their low base salaries for 2007 make it possible that the Raiders will let stand those contracts unless they need to free up cap room down the road. At that point, they could rework these contracts so that they are more cap friendly for 2007.

Running back Justin Fargas has shown he can be just as productive as Jordan. Therefore, the Raiders need to decide whether it's better to stick with both or cut Jordan and absorb a $4.2 million cap hit.

Curry leads the Raiders in receptions (57) and yards (680). There's no way the Raiders will let him walk, even if it means paying him the $6.5 million due him.
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Young Legend


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

they need to cut Jordan.. so next year he can be in dancing with the stars..
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nickdawg


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

m52876 wrote:
Thanks Nickdawg,
Don't we need to pay him at least that full that full 4.2? It is all s. bonus, no salary included. Shouldn't it be 4.2 plus his base (which of course would not matter if he were cut), as opposed to minus his base? I am not sure though.

I did not mean to imply that their is finacial reason to cut him. I was actually saying there is financial reason to keep him. I hate dead money. I have seen it destory teams. I would rather have him on the team, as a change of pace guy then just sending him on his way to sign with another team. In that case, we get nothing, and we are still paying him. I would rather pay $5+ million a year for a backup than $4+ million a year for a gu that is not even on the team. It seems like his contract was front-loaded and hanging on to him for at least one more year makes sense.


Here's the deal....in the NFL, there really is nothing guaranteed. Yeah, it's often SAID that there's x amount of money guaranteed, but it's usually because that money is in the first year or two of the contract, which said player is all but guaranteed to play through, and therefore, earn.

If he's cut or traded, we owe him nothing. Technically. Now, there *IS* a rule that, a released player can receive the balance of his base salary for one season, but it can only be done once in his career. So, if we were to cut Jordan, he could theoretically exercise that option, and we'd owe him the 1 mil in base he's due this year.

Bonus money is just that...a bonus. It's a way for teams to keep base salaries low, and keep them cap-competitive, while still being an attractive place for free agents to sign. It doesn't count against the cap until the player is moved in some way.

There's obviously more, like incentives, likely-to-be-reached incentives, workout bonuses, and roster bonuses to name a few. But, they can REALLY complicate the matter and, quite frankly, I don't understand it all.
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m52876


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oaktown. You cannot honestly say that Fargas has proven that he can be as productive as Jordan. How can you back that statement up?
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m52876


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barnett56. No, I do not think this is being talked about by anyone on the team but I have counted at least a dozen "cut Jordan" posts on this board in the last couple weeks so I was just curious what the cap imlications would be.
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Barnett56


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

m52876 wrote:
Oaktown. You cannot honestly say that Fargas has proven that he can be as productive as Jordan. How can you back that statement up?


Fargas: 3.7 rushing average, 7.0 receiving average

Jordan: 3.8 rushing average, 7.4 receiving average

Fargas: 16 games played, 6 started - 659 rushing yards, 91 receiving

Jordan: 9 games playes, 8 started - 434 yards rushing, 74 receiving
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sundancejoe


Joined: 05 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m52876 wrote:
Oaktown. You cannot honestly say that Fargas has proven that he can be as productive as Jordan. How can you back that statement up?


I can back up that they are equally unproductive.
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nugradraiderfan


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m52876 wrote:
Barnett56. No, I do not think this is being talked about by anyone on the team but I have counted at least a dozen "cut Jordan" posts on this board in the last couple weeks so I was just curious what the cap imlications would be.


I don't know how true this is, but while I was listening to Moving the Chains on Sirius NFL radio, I heard that it would cost more to cut Jordan then it would to keep him next year. They said that his contract was extremely cap friendly next year. So, i'm sure that he will be kept around. I heard that that were going to restructure Gallery's contract. He supposedly will be the 3rd or 4th highest paid player on our team next year. What value for the buck!!
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Oaktown


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m52876 wrote:
Oaktown. You cannot honestly say that Fargas has proven that he can be as productive as Jordan. How can you back that statement up?


I didn't say that.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/sports/16315782.htm

I just posted the answer to the question of the topic.
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m52876


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Here's the deal....in the NFL, there really is nothing guaranteed. Yeah, it's often SAID that there's x amount of money guaranteed,...If he's cut or traded, we owe him nothing. Technically. Now, there *IS* a rule that, a released player can receive the balance of his base salary for one season, but it can only be done once in his career. So, if we were to cut Jordan, he could theoretically exercise that option, and we'd owe him the 1 mil in base he's due this year."

Nickdawg, I have been reading your posts for a couple weeks now and you always have something very intelligent to say. Do you have a source for that info? I consider myself above average in cap knowledge and that goes against everything I know. I am pretty sure signing bonuses are guarenteed. I am not even saying you are wrong. If you can point me out to some reading material I would be most appreciative. I know the teams get to spread that bonus out over the life of the contract, but I am pretty positive all SB money accelerates if a player is cut - hence my comment on the 4.2 still owed Lamont. I am also pretty positive salary does not (hence Byrant Gumbal's slap on the wrist from the NFL when he was rambling about baseball contracts being fully guarenteed) so that is not a concern. I know their are guys like Sapp, who signed an 8 year deal, and even Gannon, who had a bogus contract too, who have "funny deals" that are really long to spread out the s.b., but once gannon retired, we owed him all that sb back. I think his deal even accelerated last year because of a restructure and some post-June 1 magic sending the salary to the next year. Anyway, I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just curious what that departing check would be for Lamont.
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nickdawg


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're absolutely right about bonuses being guaranteed. And the entire remaining sum of said bonus would accelerate onto the cap, but it would depend on when, in the league year, that the transaction takes place. Before Just 1st, all remaining bonus money is counted towards the current years' salary cap, and becomes dead money. After June 1st, the bonus money is pushed back to next years' cap, and is counted as dead money for next year. But, like I said, there's a new rule in the new CBA that allows a team to release a player, and spread their cap hit over two years, instead of the usual "all dead money in one lump sum" that we've had since the first days of the cap.

Now, as far as sources go, I really don't have many to offer. I just pick up tidbits along the way. I've read the old CBA, and have read bits and pieces of the new one. I try to keep up with this here site and a lot of the great posters on here, as well as the guys at profootballtalk. Not everyone likes them, but they're usually a source of good and reliable news, not to mention they post a lot of information about the league, and the way things run under said CBA.

Lastly, and it's gonna seem somewhat hypocritical, so bear with me, one souce is Madden football. Now, I hate Madden football for one reason, and it's listed in my sig. But I still play it. That being said, like it or not, you can learn a LOT from that game, as far as how contracts, in their BASIC forms, are structured.

The best thing to remember is, signing bonuses are almost always evenly spread out over the life of the contract and, in general, base salaries increase every year.

There are many exceptions to this, but those are the basics. Look around the official NFLPA website, and do some searches on your favorite active players to see some contract details, as far as base salaries go. They don't have the bonuses listed, and they're missing a few of the contracts but, by in large, it's a great resource.
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Last edited by nickdawg on Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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