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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 13509
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject: AG20's Draft Takes Reply with quote

Julio Jones is a unique specimen. The number of athletes with his speed and strength can essentially be counted on one hand. When you throw in his ball skills, balance, and coordination the list drops to one finger. Heís among the elite class of athletes that canít be stopped and can only be slowed down (when healthy, Jones has battled injuries for much of his career). In order to do that, you need somebody that at least has a chance to run with him. He brutalized the Packers in the playoffs last year. He does that to a lot of teams, but it was a performance that was tough to watch and drew all eyes to the dilapidated state of the CB rotation.

In the last few years, Sam Shields has been the guy with the legs on this Packerís defense. Without him, there wasnít anybody to run stride for stride with Julio. Ladarius Gunter got abused because Jones is better at Gunterís one trick than Gunter is. When Gunter canít put his hands on a receiver, his lack of legs become extremely obvious. Jones blasting Gunter off the line in the third quarter, turning the after burners on and leaving Gunter 5 yards in his wake, and YACing it up for a TD while breaking the tackles of Gunter and Randall was one of the most impressive plays Iíve ever seen out of a receiver

http://i.imgur.com/ePlcmtP.gif [Not for the faint of heart and one of the plays they'll show during Julio's HOF commencement presentation]

In a fair world, Gunter wouldnít have been playing the role that he was. In that world, Sam Shieldsí career wouldnít have ended with a concussion in week one, Randall wouldnít have been gimpy with a groin injury, and Rollins would have been playing rather than being kept out with a nervous system injury. Unfortunately, all of those things happened and Gunter was the closest thing to a functioning corner that the Packers had available. The fact that the Packers won two playoff games with Micah Hyde and Ladarius Gunter playing the lionís share of the CB reps is a testament to how talented the rest of the defense is.

Evaluating the secondary as currently constructed is a difficult task. The unit was pieced together with paper clips and chewing gum at the end of last year, but how good the unit is when healthy is the toughest thing to see with this team. What can be deduced is that before the draft, the Packers didnít have anybody who fit the physical profile of a #1 CB. Iím a big believer in the golden trio of CB prospect measurements: 3 cone, 40 time, and height. Without two of those things at a good to great level, itís difficult for them to have the athletic ceiling to be a legitimate #1 guy. Palmy typically says, ďA CB can be short, and a CB can be slow, but he canít be both.Ē I add ďstiffĒ to that idea, but it tracks the same.

Damarious Randall is 5í11 with a 4.46 40-time and a 6.83 3-cone time. Of the guys on the roster, he was the closest to meeting the physical profile. His 3-cone time is strong and his height and 40 time are adequate. He measures like he plays. He doesnít show elite man to man skills and that will prevent him from being a high-end #1 guy. Heís a pretty good zone guy when heís healthy and he can play man to man, but youíre always going to be on the lookout for somebody better if heís your top guy.

Quinten Rollins is 5í11 with a 4.57 40 time and a 7.10 3-cone time. Heís got average height but other than that his measurables are below average. Heís got some strengths to his game. Heís good at finding the ball in the air, and he plays it well above his head. Heís the best tackler among the CBs. He has the quickest reaction time among these guys, heís just not a consistently good cover guy which really dings his value.

Ladarius Gunter is 6í1.5 with a 4.69 40 time and a 7.18 3-cone time. Heís long and physical at the line which helps him make up for the fact that heís athletically deficient everywhere else. Heís a smooth transitioner and heís a smart player which also helps, but if heís not winning at the line, he can be a disaster. Heís a backend of the rotation guy in a good secondary.

Say what you will about Kevin King, heís an incredible athlete. At 6í3 with a 4.43 40-time and a ridiculous 4.56 3-cone time, he meets and exceeds the physical profile. Heís lungey as a press guy, but heís long enough that he tends to land his jabs regardless. When he misses, he usually can recover with his strong speed. Heís better right now when heís not putting his hands on guys at the line. With his speed, flexibility, and reaction time he has a huge window where QBs canít throw. He will get his technique right at the line and I wouldnít be shocked to see him making significant strides as early as training camp.

When he plays with good technique off the line, heís maybe the best DB in this class. Heís just inconsistent with it.
http://i.imgur.com/j5ogWNV.gif [Very sexy highlight]

My biggest gripe with King is that he does not like to hit. If he showed that willingness that some of the other guys in the class did, I strongly suspect he wouldíve been a top 15 pick. Heís not a Cromartie level bad tackler, but heís an ankle tackler which isnít encouraging. Just putting weight on his frame will improve his ability to bring guys down, but the most important part of tackling is wanting to hit, and King needs to show that. If he had ten wrap up tackles all of last year I would be surprised.

http://i.imgur.com/zJe9EzL.gif

http://i.imgur.com/yMbrlku.gif

http://i.imgur.com/OoM9P8O.gif

http://i.imgur.com/MdZ9dcj.gif

Heíll take his lumps early on, but I canít see a guy with his athletic profile completely bombing. His tape is strong as well, which I think sometimes gets lost in just how freakish he is as an athlete. Heís a very good vertical player, and I would say great if he didnít occasionally bite on some underneath moves. It will be interesting to see how he adapts to a new system and better competition.

At minimum, thereís now at least a guy in GB who can run with an elite receiver again. Running with and covering are two entirely different things, but you typically have to do the former in order to do the latter. Thereís big expectations for King, and if he meets them it could mean incredible things for this secondary and defense as a whole. The talent already on the team has the ability to nicely fill in the CBs 2-4 roles. They just need that lead dog, and King has lead dog potential.

Itís difficult for me to put a grade on a player without a comparison. I need an NFL body to compare a college player to. Kevin King sits firmly in that area of discomfort for me. I hate watching DBs to begin with, and when the DB happens to have a relatively unique physical profile, it makes the task of evaluating him all but impossible. Iíve seen a couple of comparisons to Richard Sherman, and Iíve seen Sean Smith and Patrick Peterson thrown out as well, but none of those strike me as good comparisons.

The reason for the Sherman comparisons are obvious. King and Sherman are both 6í3Ē with the same sort of lanky build. Washington and Seattle played a very similar scheme on the back end, so itís easier to make the comparison without having to decipher scheme. There also is often a geographical factor in these comparisons. Frequently a local newspaper media guy only watches the local pro and college teams very closely so he makes the closest comparison that heís familiar with. Then the national writers come in and copy the local guyís work like they often do, and thatís how you get the comparison to Richard Sherman.

Heís not Richard Sherman, theyíre two entirely different players. King isnít anywhere near as physical as Sherman is, both from a press and a tackling perspective. Sherman is a hitter, King is a leg cutter. King also isnít nearly as instinctive or as smart as Sherman is, some of that will come with time, but it should also be noted that Sherman is just a brilliant decision maker on the field, and expecting anybody to ever get there is unfair. Thatís a big reason that Richards Sherman is the player that he is.

On the other side of the equation, Kevin King moves better than Richard Sherman does. Sherman can be beat deep if you can shuck the press and run. He doesnít have the legs to chase down a mistake. Heís a good stop and start corner but doesnít want to get into a foot race. He relies on his length to disrupt long vertical throws. King is better bailing off the line than he is trying to put his hands on guys right now. King can run, and while his speed isnít elite, itís only one tier below, and that makes a difference.
Thereís no reason that King canít be as good at using his length vertically, but he also should be able to run with anybody. Guys are going to get beat early in their career, if they can run down their mistakes, it can make those rookie growing pains easier to live with.

You see in plays like this that his press game is far from perfect. Now these were fantastic plays that were needed to beat him, but you see some of the issues with his technique.

http://i.imgur.com/RKMIC3U.gif

http://i.imgur.com/3pSHazY.gif

http://i.imgur.com/DLMqsy3.gif

http://i.imgur.com/3ig14PL.gif

When he isnít worrying about fighting with somebody at the line, he can do stuff like this:

http://i.imgur.com/zf7PUfb.gif

The comparison that I ended up going with was Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. I think people forget just how ridiculous that man is as an athlete. I donít love DRC as a player, heís as soft as warm butter, but King does show a lot of the traits that a young DRC did coming out of Tennessee State. Despite my misgivings about the playstyle, DRC is a guy that would help any team in the league, and King looks to have that potential, if not more.
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Josh Jones is a safety and I don't get safeties. I can regurgitate info from other sources, but that's about all I can offer on this one. I hate watching safeties.
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Montravious Adams

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Vince Biegel

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Jamaal Williams

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Deangelo Yancey

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Aaron Jones

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Kofi Amichia

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Devante Mayes

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Malachi Dupree

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TransientTexan


Joined: 27 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great write up on King. In your experience, how fixable is willingness-to-hit/tackling compared to other DB attributes? Have you seen other current or past players that managed to improve a lot in that area?
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Shanedorf


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awesome work AG, thx

In some of the pre-draft write-ups, they noted King played some in the slot in college. He doesn't look like a slot CB, but is there any role for him there in the NFL ? GB isn't shy about putting Jordy in the slot and MM often talks about "Big Men runnin down the middle of the field"..

In the first gif you linked with Julio beating Gunter, Jones was lined up at slot. In that scenario, does King follow him inside ?
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Chili


Joined: 13 May 2014
Posts: 619
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice write up. Dancing

Just have to remember not all rookies come into the NFL as finished articles, they still got alot of flaws and has alot of development to do to reach their full potential. I think King will learn to use his size better especially in tackling. Most cornerbacks in the draft were not very good tacklers. Other big corners like Witherspoon and Wilson can't really tackle. I'm not too concerned about that aspect as that can be easily coached. I'm more concerned about whether the player has playmaking ability, that knack of making interceptions and King appears to have that.

As badly as I wanted Watt, King is a complete no brainer pick. Trading down to get someone this physically talented and get another draft pick out of it is something I completely agree with. It gave us draft flexibility at the top and bottom of the draft, it filled a position of need, it was an excellent situation to be in and gave us the opportunity to further replenish our roster.

We lost loads of players over the past year - Hyde, D.Jones, Peppers, Cook, Shields, Lang, Sitton, Tretter, Lacy, Starks, Pennell, Raji, Hayward, Neal, Quarless etc... that is a huge chunk of contributing players gone and we have done well to replace most of them with talented players using the last two drafts and especially in this year's free agency.

Trading down probably always was the plan, even in the weeks leading up to the draft. We had far too many holes to fill.

If there was anybody else we could've chosen at that #33 spot it could've been Forrest Lamp or Joe Mixon but we all know that TT does not put a high value on Guards, RB and ILB this early in the draft. Can always find good ones later on which he of course tried to do..
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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both "Cromartie's" in the NFL are good comps. Sherman is a good comp for his build, but like you said their athletic gifts and styles are totally different. I think King will always be soft. I think Damarious will always be soft too. As long as they develop into guys that can cover and take the ball away I'll be thrilled. We have our safeties like to hit, all 4 of HHCD, Burnett, Jones and Brice can lay the wood. Plus Rollins, House and Gunter are good tacklers at CB. We can afford a few soft guys in the secondary. Hell Shields was real soft too, just bad luck he ended up with head injuries on the limited amount of times he mixed it up.
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Chili


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm actually surprised how soft Randall is. He was a safety in college and racked up high tackle numbers. Think
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palmy50


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chili wrote:
I'm actually surprised how soft Randall is. He was a safety in college and racked up high tackle numbers. Think


I just think Randall is lacking confidence in his game right now. It's nearly impossible to be aggressive when all you can think about is getting beat. Randall needs to learn how to let the last one go. He's sure as hell talented enough. Just got bumped a spot when Shields went down and NFL level number one WR's can make ya lose confidence quick if your not ready for the task at hand.
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EdMathews


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In that Julio clip, the middle of the field was so wide open you could land an f-16 there. How in the world can anyone, even a Hall of Fame corner, guard Julio when's he's got so much room to roam and no one within shouting distance to help?
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EdMathews wrote:
In that Julio clip, the middle of the field was so wide open you could land an f-16 there. How in the world can anyone, even a Hall of Fame corner, guard Julio when's he's got so much room to roam and no one within shouting distance to help?


Gunter's only job on that play is to not get beat inside. He needs to force an outside release.

Yes the 3 second level guys all jumped on the PA, but that's horrible CB work.
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From the day he was born and subsequently starting to grow into his short neck, round face, scruffy beard and pale face, Bulaga was destined to be a Packers O-Linemen for life.
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palmy50


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
EdMathews wrote:
In that Julio clip, the middle of the field was so wide open you could land an f-16 there. How in the world can anyone, even a Hall of Fame corner, guard Julio when's he's got so much room to roam and no one within shouting distance to help?


Gunter's only job on that play is to not get beat inside. He needs to force an outside release.

Yes the 3 second level guys all jumped on the PA, but that's horrible CB work.


Sadly, Gunter easily pulled the highest marks of the Packers CB's last year. Gunter is a smart, tough player and there is a spot at the table for him. Very few would want "that guy" at the head of said table though. Maybe he'll become that guy some day. But he doesn't have the legs for lost steps and mistakes out there. He needs to be a true master of his craft. Gunter is far more disciplined than the other CB's on this Packers roster. He needs to grade elite in this area though.
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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
EdMathews wrote:
In that Julio clip, the middle of the field was so wide open you could land an f-16 there. How in the world can anyone, even a Hall of Fame corner, guard Julio when's he's got so much room to roam and no one within shouting distance to help?


Gunter's only job on that play is to not get beat inside. He needs to force an outside release.

Yes the 3 second level guys all jumped on the PA, but that's horrible CB work.


He's shaded outside and his first steps are to force Julio inside. He should have dropping ILBs and HHCD playing one high inside, where as outside he has no help. I think his responsibility was the opposite. If his job was to force him outside he has literally no chance with that alignment.

Either way possibly the only player on the field for us that play who wouldn't earn negative marks is Rollins. What a train wreck of a play.
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EdMathews


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packerraymond wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
EdMathews wrote:
In that Julio clip, the middle of the field was so wide open you could land an f-16 there. How in the world can anyone, even a Hall of Fame corner, guard Julio when's he's got so much room to roam and no one within shouting distance to help?


Gunter's only job on that play is to not get beat inside. He needs to force an outside release.

Yes the 3 second level guys all jumped on the PA, but that's horrible CB work.


He's shaded outside and his first steps are to force Julio inside. He should have dropping ILBs and HHCD playing one high inside, where as outside he has no help. I think his responsibility was the opposite. If his job was to force him outside he has literally no chance with that alignment.

Either way possibly the only player on the field for us that play who wouldn't earn negative marks is Rollins. What a train wreck of a play.


But what's the thinking on this play? Gunter we all know is slow yet he's one on one in an huge open field against one of the great WR's of our time. Why do you even put Gunter in a position like that? LB's at line of scrimmage, HaHa 20 yards deep in single safety... pitch and catch, easy TD. Atlanta must have been laughing in the huddle. Yes, we were beat up at corner, so shouldn't the game plan mean help for Gunter on every play? The CB's got most of the blame for the debacle, but they sure didn't get helped by the defensive scheme.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EdMathews wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
EdMathews wrote:
In that Julio clip, the middle of the field was so wide open you could land an f-16 there. How in the world can anyone, even a Hall of Fame corner, guard Julio when's he's got so much room to roam and no one within shouting distance to help?


Gunter's only job on that play is to not get beat inside. He needs to force an outside release.

Yes the 3 second level guys all jumped on the PA, but that's horrible CB work.


He's shaded outside and his first steps are to force Julio inside. He should have dropping ILBs and HHCD playing one high inside, where as outside he has no help. I think his responsibility was the opposite. If his job was to force him outside he has literally no chance with that alignment.

Either way possibly the only player on the field for us that play who wouldn't earn negative marks is Rollins. What a train wreck of a play.


But what's the thinking on this play? Gunter we all know is slow yet he's one on one in an huge open field against one of the great WR's of our time. Why do you even put Gunter in a position like that? LB's at line of scrimmage, HaHa 20 yards deep in single safety... pitch and catch, easy TD. Atlanta must have been laughing in the huddle. Yes, we were beat up at corner, so shouldn't the game plan mean help for Gunter on every play? The CB's got most of the blame for the debacle, but they sure didn't get helped by the defensive scheme.


He has HaHa over his head. What other help do you want for him? He doens't have to worry about getting beat deep. That is how you help a CB in the NFL.
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From the day he was born and subsequently starting to grow into his short neck, round face, scruffy beard and pale face, Bulaga was destined to be a Packers O-Linemen for life.
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EdMathews


Joined: 22 May 2014
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
EdMathews wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
EdMathews wrote:
In that Julio clip, the middle of the field was so wide open you could land an f-16 there. How in the world can anyone, even a Hall of Fame corner, guard Julio when's he's got so much room to roam and no one within shouting distance to help?


Gunter's only job on that play is to not get beat inside. He needs to force an outside release.

Yes the 3 second level guys all jumped on the PA, but that's horrible CB work.


He's shaded outside and his first steps are to force Julio inside. He should have dropping ILBs and HHCD playing one high inside, where as outside he has no help. I think his responsibility was the opposite. If his job was to force him outside he has literally no chance with that alignment.

Either way possibly the only player on the field for us that play who wouldn't earn negative marks is Rollins. What a train wreck of a play.


But what's the thinking on this play? Gunter we all know is slow yet he's one on one in an huge open field against one of the great WR's of our time. Why do you even put Gunter in a position like that? LB's at line of scrimmage, HaHa 20 yards deep in single safety... pitch and catch, easy TD. Atlanta must have been laughing in the huddle. Yes, we were beat up at corner, so shouldn't the game plan mean help for Gunter on every play? The CB's got most of the blame for the debacle, but they sure didn't get helped by the defensive scheme.


He has HaHa over his head. What other help do you want for him? He doens't have to worry about getting beat deep. That is how you help a CB in the NFL.


HaHa is 20 yards back and the other ten defensive players are all at the line of scrimmage. Sorry, but that's not how you help a CB in to the NFL today or any day when the receiver is Julio Jones and a slow Gunter is told to cover him. HaHa may have been able to help if Julio went deep but why should Atlanta go deep when there's such an easy pitch and catch over the middle? Looking at that alignment before the snap Ryan could only have been smiling inside. The middle of the field has been a consistent disaster area for us for years.There have been many different CB's and LB's trying to patrol the area with little success. Have they all been terrible? Could it be possible that that's not how you help CB's in the NFL?
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EdMathews wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
EdMathews wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
EdMathews wrote:
In that Julio clip, the middle of the field was so wide open you could land an f-16 there. How in the world can anyone, even a Hall of Fame corner, guard Julio when's he's got so much room to roam and no one within shouting distance to help?


Gunter's only job on that play is to not get beat inside. He needs to force an outside release.

Yes the 3 second level guys all jumped on the PA, but that's horrible CB work.


He's shaded outside and his first steps are to force Julio inside. He should have dropping ILBs and HHCD playing one high inside, where as outside he has no help. I think his responsibility was the opposite. If his job was to force him outside he has literally no chance with that alignment.

Either way possibly the only player on the field for us that play who wouldn't earn negative marks is Rollins. What a train wreck of a play.


But what's the thinking on this play? Gunter we all know is slow yet he's one on one in an huge open field against one of the great WR's of our time. Why do you even put Gunter in a position like that? LB's at line of scrimmage, HaHa 20 yards deep in single safety... pitch and catch, easy TD. Atlanta must have been laughing in the huddle. Yes, we were beat up at corner, so shouldn't the game plan mean help for Gunter on every play? The CB's got most of the blame for the debacle, but they sure didn't get helped by the defensive scheme.


He has HaHa over his head. What other help do you want for him? He doens't have to worry about getting beat deep. That is how you help a CB in the NFL.


HaHa is 20 yards back and the other ten defensive players are all at the line of scrimmage. Sorry, but that's not how you help a CB in to the NFL today or any day when the receiver is Julio Jones and a slow Gunter is told to cover him. HaHa may have been able to help if Julio went deep but why should Atlanta go deep when there's such an easy pitch and catch over the middle? Looking at that alignment before the snap Ryan could only have been smiling inside. The middle of the field has been a consistent disaster area for us for years.There have been many different CB's and LB's trying to patrol the area with little success. Have they all been terrible? Could it be possible that that's not how you help CB's in the NFL?


That is how you help CBs in the NFL. You make it so they don't have to defend a responsibility, either by running someone underneath them so they don't have to worry about the shallow throw, or by putting someone over their head so they don't have to worry about getting beat deep. You can't remove all responsibility from them more than a few times per game.

You can't commit a CB, a Safety, and an ILB to stopping one player every snap. You only have 11 guys on the field.
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From the day he was born and subsequently starting to grow into his short neck, round face, scruffy beard and pale face, Bulaga was destined to be a Packers O-Linemen for life.
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