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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 4738
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:00 pm    Post subject: 4-3 Reply with quote

would you prefer a 4-3 or nickel with the 4 man front as follows

LDE Heyward
LDT Tuitt
RDT Hargrave
RDE OLB rotation

LDE Heyward would be an all around improvement over Moats or Jones .

I see the 3 DL above as the 3 best players we have along the Line, but I expect Harrison to get better as playoffs are near and he gets more playing time. Moats and Jarvis aren't getting it done, and Chickillo needs more time. Not 4 years time like jarvis but you know what I mean .

If Dupree returns and plays well enough, I doubt the team considers this. If Dupree doesn't return or they try the above with success, it might happen and continue on to next season. Harrison might retire or if he continues will only be rotational part time player. This leaves Dupree's potential as the only reason I see a 3-4 or 2 OLB light nickel to be in use. Apply the best players on the roster

I think the 3 DL above with a good outside rusher could be dominant. Very disruptive, enough to cause QB's to lose accuracy and then possibly take too many hits as well. Tuitt was lucky he never got flagged for roughing the passer last game Cool

What about the idea of the safety turned into nickel LB such as the rams did with Barron. This can allow flexible play calling for the back 7, focus on that and let the 4 man front take care of the rest. Or if there is another shazier in the draft Shocked
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 61800
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We play subpackage football most of the time, so our base formation is somewhat irrelevant.

Regardless of what formation we play, we dont have a consistent edge rusher on the roster. Dupree MIGHT be it, but we may not even know until NEXT season...and by then, hopefully theyve added a few pieces.
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 4738
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
We play subpackage football most of the time, so our base formation is somewhat irrelevant.

Regardless of what formation we play, we dont have a consistent edge rusher on the roster. Dupree MIGHT be it, but we may not even know until NEXT season...and by then, hopefully theyve added a few pieces.


But for the 4 players to line up and pass rush/ stop the run is what I was referring to. Base/ nickel/ dime, lets leave that out .

Dupree won't be it this year so to me getting Hargrave out there looks to be the best 4 man front/DL we can put out there.
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SMashMouthMike


Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 5310
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've been heading in this direction I think since last season, maybe the season before, but I can't remember.
Quote:

Dupree won't be it this year so to me getting Hargrave out there looks to be the best 4 man front/DL we can put out there.


That's the crux - we don't have the horses to run a hybrid, a 4-3, or a 3-4 without blitzing because we don't have the edge rushers to only send 4 guys and still get to the qb. And if we blitz they are afraid the offense will destroy the secondary. That's why it looks like we are playing prevent imo - because we are. So far it's been an effective prevent though.

Eventually, butler is going to have to dial it up. He did last season, and I think he can this year, but he wants his secondary to prove it won't let him down, or he wants to slow things down and help the youngsters to get acclimated to the game so they aren't making costly mistakes each play.
It's probably the right approach, especially with the offense we have, and new faces, and the particular injuries, and it helps get young guys experience in their C1 while they are cheap. Hang in there 3rivers, the Steelcurtain wasn't built in a week.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 2450
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All defenses are hybrid fronts anymore.

4-3, 3-4, 2-4, 2-5, 3-3, 4-2 only exist for fan "lip service" anymore. The last two defensive play books I've coached out of don't have labels like that. Just positional "names", responsibility, and calls.
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 4738
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
All defenses are hybrid fronts anymore.

4-3, 3-4, 2-4, 2-5, 3-3, 4-2 only exist for fan "lip service" anymore. The last two defensive play books I've coached out of don't have labels like that. Just positional "names", responsibility, and calls.


I should have reworded the post.

When we play and are to have 4 players play on the line , wouldn't it be best to have

LDE Heyward
DT Tuitt
DT Hargrave
RDE - OLB's rotate

The important part is getting the best players on the field.

example of Nickel 4-2-5
Harrison could be either RDE or LB. This would affect snaps Timmons would get since Shazier would never leave the field. This scheme opts to have Hargrave playing instead of jarvis/moats. If Hargrave makes impact with limited play, will the coaches keep him on the field?
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KofQ


Joined: 29 Mar 2014
Posts: 762
Location: IA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rivers wrote:
warfelg wrote:
All defenses are hybrid fronts anymore.

4-3, 3-4, 2-4, 2-5, 3-3, 4-2 only exist for fan "lip service" anymore. The last two defensive play books I've coached out of don't have labels like that. Just positional "names", responsibility, and calls.


I should have reworded the post.

When we play and are to have 4 players play on the line , wouldn't it be best to have

LDE Heyward
DT Tuitt
DT Hargrave
RDE - OLB's rotate

The important part is getting the best players on the field.

example of Nickel 4-2-5
Harrison could be either RDE or LB. This would affect snaps Timmons would get since Shazier would never leave the field. This scheme opts to have Hargrave playing instead of jarvis/moats. If Hargrave makes impact with limited play, will the coaches keep him on the field?


It would be nice to see Hargrave out on the field more. What's frustrating too is seeing Heyward and Tuitt as the only down lineman and watching them constantly get double teamed. Those two should win alot of one on one matchups. But like others have said we don't have the pass rushers or the secondary to do the things were used to seeing. But it has worked from a team stand point so it is what it is. Pass rusher has to be number one priority in FA and the draft.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 9642
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KofQ wrote:

It would be nice to see Hargrave out on the field more. What's frustrating too is seeing Heyward and Tuitt as the only down lineman and watching them constantly get double teamed. Those two should win alot of one on one matchups. But like others have said we don't have the pass rushers or the secondary to do the things were used to seeing. But it has worked from a team stand point so it is what it is. Pass rusher has to be number one priority in FA and the draft.


Because JJ cannot beat an OT 1:1. No need to give the tackle help on JJ when Heyward and Tuitt are the problems. Ricardo Mathews has been one of the more effective pass rushers when he is in.

One reason they do not go to 3 tackles in an obvious passing situation is that the offense would know where the pass rush is coming from.
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GridironWarrior


Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 957
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a side not after game one Moats leads the team with 2.5 sacks in Madden lol. Had five as a team even Jarvis got one.
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 4738
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KofQ wrote:
3rivers wrote:
warfelg wrote:
All defenses are hybrid fronts anymore.

4-3, 3-4, 2-4, 2-5, 3-3, 4-2 only exist for fan "lip service" anymore. The last two defensive play books I've coached out of don't have labels like that. Just positional "names", responsibility, and calls.


I should have reworded the post.

When we play and are to have 4 players play on the line , wouldn't it be best to have

LDE Heyward
DT Tuitt
DT Hargrave
RDE - OLB's rotate

The important part is getting the best players on the field.

example of Nickel 4-2-5
Harrison could be either RDE or LB. This would affect snaps Timmons would get since Shazier would never leave the field. This scheme opts to have Hargrave playing instead of jarvis/moats. If Hargrave makes impact with limited play, will the coaches keep him on the field?


It would be nice to see Hargrave out on the field more. What's frustrating too is seeing Heyward and Tuitt as the only down lineman and watching them constantly get double teamed. Those two should win alot of one on one matchups. But like others have said we don't have the pass rushers or the secondary to do the things were used to seeing. But it has worked from a team stand point so it is what it is. Pass rusher has to be number one priority in FA and the draft.


This is where Hargrave at NT will help, he takes 2 blockers, everyone else gets one. Heyward and Tuitt are collapsing the pocket, disrupting passing lanes, less room to step up etc. Now just make it so they have 1 on 1 matches and it is a winning situation IMO.

As for the D working thus far, most of that is either Heyward/Tuitt collapsing the pocket but more likely the coverage being good. OLB edge rushers aren't getting there, but Harrison is the best of the lot and only is getting occasional opportunities due to the rotation. Get more pressure and the turnovers will increase. Not playing Hargrave is different than a DB. The NT will have a few different plays, but the DB's have more possible variation and is also more dependant on communication with teammates .
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