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Big Ben, Late Season Slump, and His Knee Surgery
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
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Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject: Big Ben, Late Season Slump, and His Knee Surgery Reply with quote

I've been thinking a bunch lately and this streak of bad play from Ben.

Why hasn't this obvious answer popped up. I was rewatching the last few games, and he's not stepping fully into the throw. He's short stepping and all arm throwing.

Personally, I don't think he trusts his knee all that much right now.

I know it's hard to say where we are right now, but for himself he might have been better off sitting out the rest of the season. Obviously you can't argue with where we are right now, but I think it's clearly effecting him a decent amount.

Anyone else agree? Disagree? Why?
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Lambert44


Joined: 26 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something is wrong with him. Do not know if it is his knee or not.
If he does not show up Sunday and play extremely well the season will be over.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're likely right. He looks like he did back when we used to have terrible OLines.....playing timid and somewhat scared of being hit. But unless he is risking further injury, no chance in hell should he be sitting. The mere threat of Ben even at 50% is better than anything Landry Jones brings to the table at 200%.
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warfelg


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
You're likely right. He looks like he did back when we used to have terrible OLines.....playing timid and somewhat scared of being hit.


You can't see it but I'm doing that nose touch pointing thing. It's so reminiscent of that.

As for your second part, I get what your saying, but since returning I don't think Ben is much better than what we would get from Landry. At least Landry wouldn't audible into the mistakes Ben made.

I really think Ben is scared of that knee and lacking a deep threat. I think one deep drop play action and a deep throw to DHB or Coates. Complete or not I think it would really help him.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
You're likely right. He looks like he did back when we used to have terrible OLines.....playing timid and somewhat scared of being hit.


You can't see it but I'm doing that nose touch pointing thing. It's so reminiscent of that.

As for your second part, I get what your saying, but since returning I don't think Ben is much better than what we would get from Landry. At least Landry wouldn't audible into the mistakes Ben made.

I really think Ben is scared of that knee and lacking a deep threat. I think one deep drop play action and a deep throw to DHB or Coates. Complete or not I think it would really help him.


Yep...said that about the deep threat in another thread. Since Coates tailed off, Ben has cooled off. Its funny, in his earlier years, Ben wasnt that great of a deep ball thrower. He matured into one of the best, and I think now that its been taken away (for the most part), its kind of affecting his game.

What the hell is going on with Coates anyway? Did Tomlin put him in his stupid little doghouse? Or is he still limited because of his hand (which I heard was pretty bad)?

They havent used DHB at all, really. They dont have anyone that can stretch the field.

IMO, they should just ask Ben to be a game manager, and hope Bell and the OLine can do the heavy lifting and the defense can get some pressure on Brady. I dont think Ben is capable of a shootout right now. Earlier this year...sure. Now, with his knee, his timid play and no deep threat....I seriously question it.

First and foremost, we need him to be smart with the ball. The Pats prey off of turnovers and mistakes. Limit those, and youre one step closer to beating them.
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Dcash4


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
What the hell is going on with Coates anyway? Did Tomlin put him in his stupid little doghouse? Or is he still limited because of his hand (which I heard was pretty bad)?


Just feels like they mismanaged the Coates situation from the word go. He should have went on the shelf a few weeks as a receiver who broke multiple fingers, but instead he was out there blocking and tacking on special teams almost immediately.

How they thought his hands would get better by playing I wont understand. Just feels like they thought he would heal as the year went on. He hasnt, and now is regulated strictly to ST duty.

Kind of painful thinking how big of a hit this offense took since the only three guys we have in the receiving game as field stretchers all went down to injury. One healthy Green, DHB, or Coates drastically helps a group of guys who live in the 7-12 yard range.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As for your second part, I get what your saying, but since returning I don't think Ben is much better than what we would get from Landry. At least Landry wouldn't audible into the mistakes Ben made.


Are we being serious right now?

Roethlisberger is playing unselfish football and a huge part of emphasizing the ground game. A lot of the success it has depends on him being under center. Roethlisberger's audibles put this offense in better situations far, far more than they do bad ones. Even the interception against KC is kind of funny to me because people pretend to know what calls went out to the OL. It was a run/pass option in a loud stadium, but it doesn't seem to occur to anyone that Villanueva just didn't hear the call.

If they had shut him down and played Landry, they don't even make the playoffs let alone get to the AFCCG. The notion that you shut your QB down and pass up this opportunity is crazy.

Kansas City had the best defense in the playoffs in the divisional round. I'll gladly include Houston's in that.
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Steeler Hitman


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Big Ben, Late Season Slump, and His Knee Surgery Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
I've been thinking a bunch lately and this streak of bad play from Ben.

Why hasn't this obvious answer popped up. I was rewatching the last few games, and he's not stepping fully into the throw. He's short stepping and all arm throwing.

Personally, I don't think he trusts his knee all that much right now.

I know it's hard to say where we are right now, but for himself he might have been better off sitting out the rest of the season. Obviously you can't argue with where we are right now, but I think it's clearly effecting him a decent amount.

Anyone else agree? Disagree? Why?


I think that there may well be some validity to what you are saying. However, I am more surprised at Ben's decision making. Mechanically, he may be somewhat hindered in his throwing motion, but Ben seems to have tried to force the ball much more than in the past.

I think that the loss of Bryant, Wheaton, Coates injury, and Green's injury has caused some problems with the passing games consistency more so than Ben's injury. He has made some big trows during that time as well. I think Ben is trying to do too much a la the Chiefs game at the goal line. First and goal at the five yard line and the Chiefs can't stop Bell. Ben changes the play to a pass that was tipped, but wasn't open in the first place.

He just needs to get his rhythm back. Ayers, Hamilton, Rodgers, Coates and DHB need to step up and be more consistent as well. I do think Ben could use Ayers and Rogers more than he has, but he doesn't have the same confidence in them as he does the veterans.

I think Ben will be fine if he will use ALL of his tools. Hopefully, LaDarius will be back this week. Having him back will boost the passing game as well.
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JLambert58


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps Ben having a "down" year is some combination of:

Not being 100% healthy. (He did have meniscus surgery in the middle of the year)

Losing 6 of his top weapons from this year and a year ago including guys gone from the roster seems to have had a negative effect on his overall performance in 2016. (Heath, Bryant, Green, Wheaton, DHB & Coates) Losing Heath Miller may be an underrated factor in his overall trust and comfort (or lack therof) with his offensive weapons. Having a bullet-proof OLine should have helped offset that, but it hasn't seemed to help him enough to get a true rhythm going with his offensive weapons to the degree that we're used to.

And lastly, let's not forget, Ben has gotten beaten up over the course of 13 years. He's been sacked 505 times in his career including playoffs. (An unfortunate reality that will eventually be the end of his career) His mobility has decreased and it's possible the beatings he has taken have changed his game just a little bit.
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Steeler Hitman


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JLambert58 wrote:
Perhaps Ben having a "down" year is some combination of:

Not being 100% healthy. (He did have meniscus surgery in the middle of the year)

Losing 6 of his top weapons from this year and a year ago including guys gone from the roster seems to have had a negative effect on his overall performance in 2016.

We are in agreement here. There just has not been consistency at the #2 WR spot all year. Even when DHB sort of stepped up in that role, he got hurt shortly afterwards. The loss of Bryant hurt more as the season wore on and Coates got injured.


(Heath, Bryant, Green, Wheaton, DHB & Coates) Losing Heath Miller may be an underrated factor in his overall trust and comfort (or lack therof) with his offensive weapons. Having a bullet-proof OLine should have helped offset that, but it hasn't seemed to help him enough to get a true rhythm going with his offensive weapons to the degree that we're used to.


Yeah, the loss of Heath has hurt. Outlaw has been fairly consistent, but Ben has not developed the same comfort level with Jessie. Green did some good things the few games that he was healthy. He certainly helps to ease the loss of Heath.


And lastly, let's not forget, Ben has gotten beaten up over the course of 13 years. He's been sacked 505 times in his career including playoffs. (An unfortunate reality that will eventually be the end of his career) His mobility has decreased and it's possible the beatings he has taken have changed his game just a little bit.


That is why I am somewhat surprised that he has not made better decisions (13 years experience). He is not at a point where his arm strength has diminished or he can't make certain throws. It seems more mental to me (his decisions).


Last year against the Bronco's (he was hurt) he got rid of the ball quickly to avoid hits and played a very smart game. He has help (Bell and Brown) this year, but just has not been in his usual play-off rhythm. The OL play has been outstanding. I certainly can't speak to how Ben feels physically or psychologically since his injury, it just seems like his decisions have been bad and at times he has looked down receivers as well. I haven't seen a lot of his famous pump fakes. He did it a few times against KC, but he has good success when he is in his zone. I still believe in Ben. Like all fans, I just want to see him at his best.

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JLambert58


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steeler Hitman wrote:
JLambert58 wrote:
Perhaps Ben having a "down" year is some combination of:

Not being 100% healthy. (He did have meniscus surgery in the middle of the year)

Losing 6 of his top weapons from this year and a year ago including guys gone from the roster seems to have had a negative effect on his overall performance in 2016.

We are in agreement here. There just has not been consistency at the #2 WR spot all year. Even when DHB sort of stepped up in that role, he got hurt shortly afterwards. The loss of Bryant hurt more as the season wore on and Coates got injured.


(Heath, Bryant, Green, Wheaton, DHB & Coates) Losing Heath Miller may be an underrated factor in his overall trust and comfort (or lack therof) with his offensive weapons. Having a bullet-proof OLine should have helped offset that, but it hasn't seemed to help him enough to get a true rhythm going with his offensive weapons to the degree that we're used to.


Yeah, the loss of Heath has hurt. Outlaw has been fairly consistent, but Ben has not developed the same comfort level with Jessie. Green did some good things the few games that he was healthy. He certainly helps to ease the loss of Heath.


And lastly, let's not forget, Ben has gotten beaten up over the course of 13 years. He's been sacked 505 times in his career including playoffs. (An unfortunate reality that will eventually be the end of his career) His mobility has decreased and it's possible the beatings he has taken have changed his game just a little bit.


That is why I am somewhat surprised that he has not made better decisions (13 years experience). He is not at a point where his arm strength has diminished or he can't make certain throws. It seems more mental to me (his decisions).


Last year against the Bronco's (he was hurt) he got rid of the ball quickly to avoid hits and played a very smart game. He has help (Bell and Brown) this year, but just has not been in his usual play-off rhythm. The OL play has been outstanding. [b]I certainly can't speak to how Ben feels physically or psychologically since his injury, it just seems like his decisions have been bad and at times he has looked down receivers as well
. I haven't seen a lot of his famous pump fakes. He did it a few times against KC, but he has good success when he is in his zone. I still believe in Ben. Like all fans, I just want to see him at his best. [/b]


Just throwing it out there. He has a wife and three kids now. Maybe he hasn't watched enough film. Hate to say it, but he certainly has all the talent. Aside from the loss of his go-to guys, this could be part of the explanation.
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Magnus-Viktor


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah there's clearly been something wrong with him for a while now. Before he got hurt, he was lights out. Since then, I've been a bit scared every time he throws the ball. His WR corp needs upgraded big time though. Those guys are not good, at all, after Brown. Eli makes some plays, but overall they're subpar. Coates should be cut too. I hated the pick because of his bad hands, and he's shown those bad hands over and over and over this year.

Steelers should look into drafting at least 2 if not 4 WRs, and I'm not exaggerating at all. Some of the guys I'd take a long hard look at if they're available:

Cooper Kupp - projected #60 (2)
Curtis Samuel - Projected #63 (2)
[b]Chris Godwin - projected #96 (3)
Ryan Switzer - projected #164 (4-5)
KD Cannon - projected #194 (5-6)[/b]

So if the Steelers are picking at #30, you could land Kupp in 2, Godwin in 3, Switzer 5 and Kannon in 6.

Kupp would give you a possession receiver in between Brian Hartline and Jordy Nelson.

Samuel is a Percy Harvin type for lack of a better comparison.

Godwin I don't know who I'd compare him to, but he really impressed me in that bowl game. Good size, good athleticism, good hands, great body control & ball skills.

Switzer is your Wes Welker, Julian Edelman type, shifty slot guy.

Cannon is a burner. Deep threat.

If you wanted to just take those latter 3 that I bolded, you could burn the 1 on Christian McCaffrey to provide better depth behind Bell who can't be relied upon (he'd also be an elite slot receiver IMO), and the 2 on TJ Watt to replace James Harrison.




Anyway, the reason for that long post there is I think a few weeks ago when he was throwing INTs in back to back games, a lot of those were on his crappy WRs. Running wrong routes. It's a combination of being hurt and bad WRs.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnus-Viktor wrote:
Yeah there's clearly been something wrong with him for a while now. Before he got hurt, he was lights out. Since then, I've been a bit scared every time he throws the ball. His WR corp needs upgraded big time though. Those guys are not good, at all, after Brown. Eli makes some plays, but overall they're subpar. Coates should be cut too. I hated the pick because of his bad hands, and he's shown those bad hands over and over and over this year.

Steelers should look into drafting at least 2 if not 4 WRs, and I'm not exaggerating at all. Some of the guys I'd take a long hard look at if they're available:

Cooper Kupp - projected #60 (2)
Curtis Samuel - Projected #63 (2)
Chris Godwin - projected #96 (3)
Ryan Switzer - projected #164 (4-5)
KD Cannon - projected #194 (5-6)


So if the Steelers are picking at #30, you could land Kupp in 2, Godwin in 3, Switzer 5 and Kannon in 6.


Draft 4 WRs? Are you serious? Even 2 is pushing it. 4 is absolutely ridiculous.

Coates was one of the best deep threats in the game before he hurt his hand. He may never be great, but even if he is relegated to just being a deep threat for us, he has value.

At this point, they are clearly still supporting Bryant and his efforts to come back.

This was only Eli Rogers 2nd year, and while he may never be a starting caliber player, he has the the tools to be a good slot or 4th WR.

And beyond the WRs, people need to stop acting like they were the only issues. Yes, we could use another talented WR, but look at what Brady does with receivers no more talented than ours.

This will incite some Steelers fans, but Im going to say it....Ben isnt as great as many Steeler fans thing he is. Is he good? Yes....is he very good, sure. Is he great or elite....absolutely not. Sure, he can have elite/great performances and stretches, but he has always been SOMEWHAT inconsistent, and it seems like some people want to blame anyone but him. Its usually not ALL on him, nor is it this year.....but too often this season when he has struggled, I see people bashing Haley or the WRs, and while they were a letdown, Ben regularly missed throws and made terrible decisions due to no ones fault but his own.

Ben is a good/very good QB who is and has always been prone to being "off" here and there, and has never been on the level of the top guys. For all the talk about how Belichick is so much better than Tomlin (and he is), lets talk about how much better Brady is than Ben, because while Steeler fans like to delude themselves into thinking its not a big gap....it is. It really, really is. Not from a physical standpoint, obviously, but Brady is much smarter, much more accurate, much more consistent and pretty much EASILY better in every facet of being an NFL QB outside of certain physical skills, which arent what they used to be for Ben.

Quote:
Kupp would give you a possession receiver in between Brian Hartline and Jordy Nelson.

Samuel is a Percy Harvin type for lack of a better comparison.

Godwin I don't know who I'd compare him to, but he really impressed me in that bowl game. Good size, good athleticism, good hands, great body control & ball skills.

Switzer is your Wes Welker, Julian Edelman type, shifty slot guy.

Cannon is a burner. Deep threat.


Again, this is delusional. You dont cut your entire WR corps and replace them with all rookies.

On top of that, we have other needs....bigger needs.

At most, we should bring in two WRs (not counting UDFAs). Personally, I would bring in a mid rounder and a veteran guy in free agency, perhaps someone like Anquan Boldin. Retain Brown and Bryant and make everyone else fight it out.

Quote:
If you wanted to just take those latter 3 that I bolded, you could burn the 1 on Christian McCaffrey to provide better depth behind Bell who can't be relied upon (he'd also be an elite slot receiver IMO), and the 2 on TJ Watt to replace James Harrison.


This isnt Madden. You dont just draft a bunch of skill position players and ignore very real holes on defense.

Quote:
Anyway, the reason for that long post there is I think a few weeks ago when he was throwing INTs in back to back games, a lot of those were on his crappy WRs. Running wrong routes. It's a combination of being hurt and bad WRs


More excuses for Ben.

Dont get me wrong, its not even that youre entirely off base. But so bad that we cut our entire WR corps and blame everyone EXCEPT Ben, who in reality, was just meh most of this year? No. Even with our WR issues, Id bet we are still top 15 in the league in WR talent, and top 5 when it comes to overall offensive support (factoring in the OLine and RBs). We just need a better compliment to Brown and get Ben a deep threat back, because he clearly missed that after Coates busted his hand. In no way should we completely start from scratch at WR, especially considering we still have huge needs at OLB, CB, S and perhaps ILB if Timmons isnt retained. Then we still need a backup QB, DLine depth, more TE talent, a backup RB.....too many too foolishly throw picks at WRs we dont really need.

Anyway, better get going before wittle CK comes along and has another hissy fit because I dont slurp on Ben the way he likes to.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really need to respond. Your narrative lost last night.

Tom Brady had huge chunk yards off play action, trick plays, and his usual underneath stuff.

Steelers played soft zone. Pats played press and challenged the Steelers WR's. Issue isn't the WR talent itself. It's with the notion that things are going to go well when the other QB is posting a 127.5 QB rating and Chris Hogan is shattering NFL records. Pats WR's are also a smarter group than Pittsburgh's. I'd wager Chris Hogan has fewer mental lapses throughout a game (reading wrong coverage, running wrong route) than Antonio Brown.

Patriots come out every game and plays balls to the wall offense. Every series, the goal is to get 7. They don't care about possessing the football. They realize that if you pile on points, things will take care of themselves.

Quote:
Ben is a good/very good QB who is and has always been prone to being "off" here and there, and has never been on the level of the top guys. For all the talk about how Belichick is so much better than Tomlin (and he is), lets talk about how much better Brady is than Ben, because while Steeler fans like to delude themselves into thinking its not a big gap....it is.


Let's put this in perspective. Roethlisberger offended you one time because he didn't acknowledge your awkward smiles at him. Mike Tomlin probably gave you a high five or something. You are on record saying you personally liked one and not the other.

I think most fans are going to trust their eyes. They'll notice that Roethlisberger's WR's dropped a number of big passes to include multiple TD's. They'll notice one team got stuffed on the goal line. They'll notice one team moved at a frantic pace on offense at times while the other milks the play clock every series.

Roethlisberger isn't as good as Brady, but the gap is far closer than the one between the Aviators and the Hoodie.
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The Curtain


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

This will incite some Steelers fans, but Im going to say it....Ben isnt as great as many Steeler fans thing he is. Is he good? Yes....is he very good, sure. Is he great or elite....absolutely not. Sure, he can have elite/great performances and stretches, but he has always been SOMEWHAT inconsistent, and it seems like some people want to blame anyone but him. Its usually not ALL on him, nor is it this year.....but too often this season when he has struggled, I see people bashing Haley or the WRs, and while they were a letdown, Ben regularly missed throws and made terrible decisions due to no ones fault but his own.

Ben is a good/very good QB who is and has always been prone to being "off" here and there, and has never been on the level of the top guys. For all the talk about how Belichick is so much better than Tomlin (and he is), lets talk about how much better Brady is than Ben, because while Steeler fans like to delude themselves into thinking its not a big gap....it is. It really, really is. Not from a physical standpoint, obviously, but Brady is much smarter, much more accurate, much more consistent and pretty much EASILY better in every facet of being an NFL QB outside of certain physical skills, which arent what they used to be for Ben.


This is a point I made in the Up/Down thread, and I agree with you. This game showed you how large the gap is between a Ben and Brady. When it comes to things like decision-making and accuracy, Brady is on an entirely different level than Ben. And it shows.
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