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Lloyd not on HOF nominee ballots?

 
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:28 am    Post subject: Lloyd not on HOF nominee ballots? Reply with quote

Has Lloyd ever been nominated for the HOF?

5 straight pro bowls should get consideration shouldn't it?
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deebo has a better chance of making the HoF, and he wont either.

Both, at their peaks, were two of the best defensive players IN THEIR ENTIRE LEAGUE, but neither have the sustained success or statistical output to get them in. I do think its possible Harrison gets NOMINATED, but I doubt he ever actually makes it in.

Its kind of the same deal as Terrell Davis....and he plays a skill position. Amazing peak, but the short timespan in which he dominated has kept him out. Even if TD does make it, its likely because he played a glamour position.....but Lloyd/Deebo have no such argument.

Dont get me wrong....both were undoubtedly HOF caliber players at some point in their respective careers, but neither really have the overall career to get them in. Maybe if Harrison breaks the sack record this year and wins DPOY, he will have a good shot, but somehow I doubt that happens.

Bottom line....Lloyd has ZERO chance, and Deebo may have a 5% chance, mainly because of his DPOY.
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Magnus-Viktor


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm inclined to agree. They were both great players, but Lloyd was never a stats guy. He was just a great player that Steeler fans loved. Statistically Lloyd was a mediocre pass rusher. His sack stats, from '98 to '95, in order: 7, 4.5, 8, 6.5, 6, 10, 6.5. He never had more than 1 INT in a season either, except for '89 and '95.....his first and last years as the full time starter in Pittsburgh. One of my all time favorite Steelers, and a complete monster on the field at times from what I remember, but the anti-Steeler bias in the HOF since there are already so many in there, and him not being the national media darling putting up gawdy stats will keep him out IMO.

As for Silverback, he has a much greater chance of getting into the HOF. He SHOULD have won SB MVP. If not him, then Ben. Holmes was #3 on my list there at best. But from '07 to '11, he was a complete stud. 8.5, 16, 10, 10, 10.5, 9 sacks in those seasons. Throw in 7,7,5,6 forced fumbles in 4 consecutive years as well. Pro bowler in all 5 of those seasons in a row, 2 time 2nd team all pro, 2 time 1st team all pro, 2 Super Bowl rings. NFL DPOY. That's really quite a resume there, especially if he had won the SB MVP as he should've. Greatest play you'll ever see in a SB. Silverback was more in the mold of Kevin Greene IMO. Greene was a lot better obviously, with Silverback's peak season being pretty routine for him (5 seasons with at least 14 sacks, and he averaged around 12 sacks in his "on" years). But as far as awards go? Almost identical. 5 pro bowls, 3 1st-team all pro, 1x NFL DPOY. Only thing he did that Silverback didn't as far as awards go? Led the NFL in sacks twice.
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3rivers


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnus-Viktor wrote:
I'm inclined to agree. They were both great players, but Lloyd was never a stats guy. He was just a great player that Steeler fans loved. Statistically Lloyd was a mediocre pass rusher. His sack stats, from '98 to '95, in order: 7, 4.5, 8, 6.5, 6, 10, 6.5. He never had more than 1 INT in a season either, except for '89 and '95.....his first and last years as the full time starter in Pittsburgh. One of my all time favorite Steelers, and a complete monster on the field at times from what I remember, but the anti-Steeler bias in the HOF since there are already so many in there, and him not being the national media darling putting up gawdy stats will keep him out IMO.

As for Silverback, he has a much greater chance of getting into the HOF. He SHOULD have won SB MVP. If not him, then Ben. Holmes was #3 on my list there at best. But from '07 to '11, he was a complete stud. 8.5, 16, 10, 10, 10.5, 9 sacks in those seasons. Throw in 7,7,5,6 forced fumbles in 4 consecutive years as well. Pro bowler in all 5 of those seasons in a row, 2 time 2nd team all pro, 2 time 1st team all pro, 2 Super Bowl rings. NFL DPOY. That's really quite a resume there, especially if he had won the SB MVP as he should've. Greatest play you'll ever see in a SB. Silverback was more in the mold of Kevin Greene IMO. Greene was a lot better obviously, with Silverback's peak season being pretty routine for him (5 seasons with at least 14 sacks, and he averaged around 12 sacks in his "on" years). But as far as awards go? Almost identical. 5 pro bowls, 3 1st-team all pro, 1x NFL DPOY. Only thing he did that Silverback didn't as far as awards go? Led the NFL in sacks twice.


Welcome aboard Magnus- Viktor. I see that you are a recent addition here and I agree with everything you say. Lloyd didn't provide the stats, but I liked the FF at key times in games and he never left the field , excellent dime coverage LB and a leader. He didn't like the media, maybe that also will factor in. Lloyd was the one that got the fines started IIRC, with the hit on favre which I still haven't located on the web. The one on brunelle would cost him today.

Harrison should have won SB MVP but Holmes was also deserving after that last series and great catch - one of the best clutch catches ever. What would help is if Harrison starts / plays more this year (get pro bowl ) and we win SB. SB MVP would help, but I can't expect that when AB and Ben are out there as well as our RB's. Shazier is all over the field when he is out there, they can play the dime with Shazier at LB. Harrison was also a great ST player and good in coverage, Greene was more of a upright DE that drove QB's into the turf and would be fined in todays nfl.
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Magnus-Viktor


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. My quote feature doesn't seem to work for some odd reason. It just jumbles it all up.

I agree. Lloyd was the total package. But the stats are what put people in the HOF. That and SB wins. He has neither. I don't know what his tackle totals were since they didn't keep that stat then apparently (I thought they did but it didn't show them on NFL.com anyway). But I know he was never the 140 tackle guy like a Junior Seau was for example, and he shouldn't have been since he wasn't a MLB and that wasn't his job description. I loved watching him play, and the signs Avoid Lloyd.

From what I recall, Holmes missed a sure-fire TD from Ben on the play immediately proceeding his catch. That is part of the reason I would demote him. That was a great catch though, and I'm sure glad he made it! I doubt Silverback does much this year, but maybe he will. We sure need him to. He's older than me even (2 months lol) and I can't imagine him having the burst or durability to be the man at OLB all season. I just hope he can provide the occasional spark as a rusher. Maybe force some more fumbles, knock some guys out, etc.

As for the Silverback and Greene comparison, there is some validity to that. It always surprised me when Silverback was able to drop in coverage. He didn't have a whole lot of range, but apparently has some pretty good instincts. Greene was a 34 DE at times throughout his career, but overall I think if he had been asked to do what Silverback does, he could have. Neither of them were the most fluid athletes in space, but they both had a really good burst. They are both more pure pass rushers than the all around linebacker like Greg Lloyd, which is why their sack numbers were much higher than his. Different athletic abilities, different skillsets, and asked to do different things.

Thank god for Shazier. He's pretty much the entire defense IMO. With no real pass rush and an iffy (so far) secondary, we really need him all over the place wreaking havoc. Funny thing here, I was hoping for Justin Gilbert in that draft, and he was my 2nd choice. We ended up getting both, but Gilbert may just be a bench warmer. Hopefully they can coach him up so we have a CB with ideal size and athleticism out there. All the raw ability in the world, just don't know what he has upstairs.
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnus-Viktor wrote:
Thanks. My quote feature doesn't seem to work for some odd reason. It just jumbles it all up.

I agree. Lloyd was the total package. But the stats are what put people in the HOF. That and SB wins. He has neither. I don't know what his tackle totals were since they didn't keep that stat then apparently (I thought they did but it didn't show them on NFL.com anyway). But I know he was never the 140 tackle guy like a Junior Seau was for example, and he shouldn't have been since he wasn't a MLB and that wasn't his job description. I loved watching him play, and the signs Avoid Lloyd.

From what I recall, Holmes missed a sure-fire TD from Ben on the play immediately proceeding his catch. That is part of the reason I would demote him. That was a great catch though, and I'm sure glad he made it! I doubt Silverback does much this year, but maybe he will. We sure need him to. He's older than me even (2 months lol) and I can't imagine him having the burst or durability to be the man at OLB all season. I just hope he can provide the occasional spark as a rusher. Maybe force some more fumbles, knock some guys out, etc.

As for the Silverback and Greene comparison, there is some validity to that. It always surprised me when Silverback was able to drop in coverage. He didn't have a whole lot of range, but apparently has some pretty good instincts. Greene was a 34 DE at times throughout his career, but overall I think if he had been asked to do what Silverback does, he could have. Neither of them were the most fluid athletes in space, but they both had a really good burst. They are both more pure pass rushers than the all around linebacker like Greg Lloyd, which is why their sack numbers were much higher than his. Different athletic abilities, different skillsets, and asked to do different things.

Thank god for Shazier. He's pretty much the entire defense IMO. With no real pass rush and an iffy (so far) secondary, we really need him all over the place wreaking havoc. Funny thing here, I was hoping for Justin Gilbert in that draft, and he was my 2nd choice. We ended up getting both, but Gilbert may just be a bench warmer. Hopefully they can coach him up so we have a CB with ideal size and athleticism out there. All the raw ability in the world, just don't know what he has upstairs.


I think Holmes didn't catch the previous pass because of getting blinded dues to the lights.

Avoid Lloyd, remember that . I disagree about Harrison, he was a total LB, stout as any LB vs the run and was underrated in coverage - remember the SB Razz

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d81c4bcdb/Steelers-defense-INT

I can't remember if goodell fined him for not fixing the divot on that play, but that could be next in this league.

I started a thread about Gilbert, thinking we needed help in the secondary and thought it could be worth a try. The Golson injury was bad news but look what we have now. I never knew the coaches really considered him during the draft, so thats new info for me. They had him high on their board, and we now have the 8th overall pick for next to nothing. Lets see if by seasons end he is returning as well as playing CB. Will history repeat itself though as in last years CB trade on the sidelines Rolling Eyes

I can't see what the scheme is for the secondary, but I was thinking butler will slowly transition from zone to man . Right now if zone is working, stay with it, and gradually bring the coverage changes. Let the players get their game adjusted and go from there. I expect Gilbert to play later on, by mid season. The secondary could be a strength of all things which is a shock if it happens considering how it was last year.
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Magnus-Viktor


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully Gilbert, Burns and Davis all come on strong, along with improvement from Cockrell and the other newish DBs. I thought coming into the season that with some luck and development it could go from a weakness to at least average. The pass rush, with those OLBs, is what always worried me. Should've drafted Fackrell in 2. He is already playing for Green Bay and took out Adrian Peterson. I don't know if he's your ideal OLB, but he seemed to be the best option in this year's draft class outside of 1 to me. Killebrew in 3 (or trade up in 4) to try and use as a nickel linebacker with Shazier would've been good too. The DL seems set. The secondary has young guys with potential. LB just leaves a lot to be desired, especially with Dupree out.

As for Silverback's coverage, he could do the really short drops, but he wasn't one with range. That's what I meant. He lacked the long speed to do anything beyond dropping back into short coverage and jumping passing lanes (as a rule). It always surprised me how effective he was in coverage, but he was limited due to athletic ability.

I hope Gilbert rebounds and turns into a stud. I'm not expecting it, but I'm hoping. It would be like adding insult to injury for the Browns, which would make it even better lol.
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Steeler Hitman


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome aboard Magnus-Viktor. Solid comments from you. I think that in comparing KG, GL, and JH you have to break down the three areas of Pass Rusher, ability to play the run, and ability to drop back in coverage.

Kevin Greene was head and shoulders above Lloyd and Harrison in pass rush ability. It isn't even close. Greene was a premier pass rusher and could have had more sacks in the Steelers scheme had he not been asked to be a more complete LB which he was decent as, but not HOF level as a complete OLB. Sacks get you to the pro bowl and that helps get you to Canton. Kevin Greene was an elite pass rusher and made it on that. The Steelers passed on drafting KG and took his Auburn teammate Gregg Carr who was said to be a more "complete" LB.

Greg Lloyd was a complete OLB. He was a huge hitter, an intimidating force, he could drop into coverage, play the run and was decent at getting up-field. I do believe that Lloyd could have gotten more sacks if he was used as Greene was early in his career with the Rams.
As you stated, Lloyd's lack of great stats will probably keep him out of the HOF. He deserves it in my humble opinion.

Debo won DPOY and was a pretty complete OLB. He had the intimidation factor like Lloyd and could pass rush, run stop and drop into coverage. He has better overall stats than GL. He wasn't the natural athlete as Lloyd, but he is every bit a good OLB.

Speaking of HOF slights, Andy Russell was a complete and solid OLB who should be in Canton as well. He played on some sorry Steelers teams, but he was as solid an OLB as there was in his prime.

I think that LC Greenwood, Donnie Shell and Andy Russell should be in the HOF. They had stellar careers and were great players.
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3rivers


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnus-Viktor wrote:
Hopefully Gilbert, Burns and Davis all come on strong, along with improvement from Cockrell and the other newish DBs. I thought coming into the season that with some luck and development it could go from a weakness to at least average. The pass rush, with those OLBs, is what always worried me. Should've drafted Fackrell in 2. He is already playing for Green Bay and took out Adrian Peterson. I don't know if he's your ideal OLB, but he seemed to be the best option in this year's draft class outside of 1 to me. Killebrew in 3 (or trade up in 4) to try and use as a nickel linebacker with Shazier would've been good too. The DL seems set. The secondary has young guys with potential. LB just leaves a lot to be desired, especially with Dupree out.

As for Silverback's coverage, he could do the really short drops, but he wasn't one with range. That's what I meant. He lacked the long speed to do anything beyond dropping back into short coverage and jumping passing lanes (as a rule). It always surprised me how effective he was in coverage, but he was limited due to athletic ability.

I hope Gilbert rebounds and turns into a stud. I'm not expecting it, but I'm hoping. It would be like adding insult to injury for the Browns, which would make it even better lol.


I see what you meant by silverbacks coverage, agree he doesn't have that range, but only Shazier does. The mismatch in todays game is the rise in speed at TE and only a few LB's might be able to do that.

With Cockrell appearing to improve it might be a while before Gilbert sees the field especially if Burns does well. If the CB's get healthy and turn out like I think, we are set for a while. Too bad we don't have Rod Woodson coaching the CB's l, but there is always next year. Maybe hire Rod as a CB coach, them move Lake to Safety coach Idea

Adding insult to injury to the browns is being excessive considering how they have been in recent years. Do some fans never show mercy on an old foe? Even youtube removed the hit Lambert put on sipe which is a shame . I had it bookmarked, but haven't seen it since Embarassed
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steeler Hitman wrote:
Kevin Greene was head and shoulders above Lloyd and Harrison in pass rush ability. It isn't even close.


I dont agree with this one bit.
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3rivers


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Steeler Hitman wrote:
Kevin Greene was head and shoulders above Lloyd and Harrison in pass rush ability. It isn't even close.


I dont agree with this one bit.


I have to agree with 43m (here).

All were great steelers and there could be players in the HOF not as good.
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