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Greatest Franchise TE of All-time

 
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Who is the greatest TE in Titans franchise history?
Willie Frazier
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Alvin Reed
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Frank Wycheck
87%
 87%  [ 21 ]
Dave Casper
12%
 12%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 24

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titanrick


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Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 12030
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Greatest Franchise TE of All-time Reply with quote

Our offense finishes up this week with naming an all-time TE. Surprisingly, we have some worthy qualifiers other than the name running through everyone's head. Here's a recap of our offense so far. I realized we were about to name a 10 person offense, so I added Eddie George in to give us a full offensive team. I trust no one objects.

QB: Steve McNair
RB: Earl Campbell and Eddie George
WR: Charley Hennigan and Derrick Mason
OT: Bruce Matthews and Brad Hopkins
OG: Mike Munchak and Bob Talamini
C: Mark Stepnoski


Here are the qualifiers at TE:

Willie Frazier: Frazier played parts of four seasons ('64, '65, '71 and '75) for the Oilers, named to an all-star game in 1965 - just his second year in the league. He tallied eight TD's that year, leading the Oilers. In those four years, he had 59 catches for 893 yards and 10 TD's.

Alvin Reed: Reed played six years for the Oilers (1967-1972) and led the team in receiving in 1968 and 1970. He was named to the Pro Bowl in '68 and '69. His career numbers were 199 catches for 2818 yards and 11 TD's.

Frank Wycheck: Wycheck came over from Washington in 1995 and was a staple of the passing offense for the next nine years. He made two Pro Bowls in 1999 and 2000 and led the team in receiving yards in '97 and '98. His nine year averages were 54 catches for 551 yards and 3 TD's.

Dave Casper: Casper was traded to Houston in 1980 and played four years for the Oilers. He was named to the Pro Bowl in 1980 and averaged 2.9 catches per game for 46 yards and .4 TD's. Those stats spread over a 16 game schedule would equate to 46 catches for 736 yards and 6.4 TD's. He was inducted into Pro Footballs' Hall of Fame in 2002.
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Last edited by titanrick on Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:02 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Ralph


Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 22
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick, can you add Dave Casper to the poll?

Before everyone automatically casts their ballot for Wycheck, I ask them to consider Hall of Fame TE Dave Casper, who was a much better player than Wycheck. Casper spent 4 years with the Oilers (1980-83), 6 with the Raiders, and one with the Vikings.

Casper was a downfield threat, Wycheck wasn't. Casper had the speed to be a mismatch and stretch the field. How many remember his great over the shoulder catch on the "Ghost to the Post" play in the Raiders-Colts 2OT playoff game? Wycheck was never a downfield threat, his nickname was "Down and Out" because the 8 or 10 yard down and out was the play he caught most of his balls on.

Casper was a dominating in-line blocker, Wycheck wasn't. Casper, a former college lineman (G, T), could handle DEs and dominate LBs. There's a play that's common in the NFL now, where the TE goes in motion and then blocks down on a DT. Casper suggested that play to his coaches and was a strong enough blocker to take out DTs without benefit of a double-team from the OG. He was such a good blocker that he probably could have bulked up 30 pounds and played guard if necessary.

Recognition:
Hall of Fame: Casper - yes, Wycheck - may receive marginal consideration, but very doubtful
Pro Bowls: Casper - 5, Wycheck - 2

Stat comparison:
TDs: Casper - 52, Wycheck - 28
Total Yards: Casper - 5,216, Wycheck - 5,126
Yds/Rec: Casper - 13.8, Wycheck - 10.2

Another thing to bear in mind - During Casper's four years with the Oilers, they were a run-oriented team who used the I-formation, which is not a good formation for passing the ball. But he still put up great numbers, even though every other play was a handoff to Earl Campbell. And with the Raiders, another run-oriented team at the time (John Madden), the primary receiver was Hall of Famer Fred Biletnikoff. Casper was a second or third option, but still put up great stats.

If there's a knock on Casper for consideration on the All-Time franchise team, the only one would be this: Casper only spent four years of his 11 year career with the Oilers and Wycheck spent 9 of his 11 with the franchise. That's the only reason, IMO, why Wycheck should receive any consideration over Casper. Casper will unfortunately be remembered mostly for his 6 years with the Raiders, where he won a Super Bowl, and not for his 4 years with the Oilers.

I like Wycheck, but Casper was a much better player by a long shot. I'll vote for Casper if Rick adds him to the poll, and I'll ask all of you to give Casper some consideration as well.

In the meantime, please consider this as a write-in vote for Casper.
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ragevsuall17


Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 6861
Location: TX
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is no competition. A career long Oiler/Titan vs a guy whos best years were with another team. Wycheck hands down. What he meant to this franchise. The safety valve to our QB whenever he needed him. And what he's meant to the community. No comp in my eyes.
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Ralph


Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 22
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragevsuall, even though you don't agree with me, thank you anyway for considering Casper.

I would point out though, that Wycheck was not a career long Oiler/Titan, as you stated. He played for the Redskins before going to the Oilers.

As far as Casper is concerned, he played before there was free agency. He had no say in where he played. It wasn't like he jumped ship for more money elsewhere, as players do now. He shouldn't be discriminated against just because he was traded twice when the team that traded him thought they were getting a good deal and not because he wasn't any good. That's just the way things were back then. Players had no rights. You played for the team that owned you or you didn't play at all.

No, Casper didn't put up his best stats as an Oiler, but you can't hold that against him either. The Oilers were using Casper, a thoroughbred, as a plowhorse in Bum's I-formation, when other teams were throwing the ball around to their TEs, such as the Chargers' Kellen Winslow Sr. And it didn't get any better under Ed Biles. At least Stabler threw the ball downfield to Casper in Oakland. But Casper still did well in Houston, despite the limitations Bum and Biles put on the offense.

And I stand by my opinion Casper was a much better player. Ask people who saw him play back then, or who have seen him on NFL Classic and other old clips.
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titanrick


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Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 12030
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralph wrote:
Rick, can you add Dave Casper to the poll?


No problem. I always thought of him as a Raider, but I always thought of Stepnoski as a Cowboy too. So sure - he's added. Personally, I agree he was a better tight end than Wycheck. I don't see Frank getting into the Hall without ponying up for the $15 admission price. But in my eyes Frank was a bigger part of the team's history. If we were talking all-time talent, Casper wins hands down.

Thanks for the request to add also - that's what I've been hoping for. I don't really like having all the power for the all-time team. Everyone else should be able to state their case as well! That's what this is all about.
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Ralph


Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 22
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick, thanks for adding Casper to the poll, even though it doesn't look like he'll win. I see someone other than me has also voted for the Ghost, his nickname from the old cartoon "Casper the Friendly Ghost".

It's an interesting question when considering players for an all-franchise team when they've also contributed on other teams. Stepnowski was also a Cowboy, as Rick noted. Montana could be considered the best QB for the Chiefs but he had his best years as a 49er. The best two corners in Cowboy history were Herb Adderly and Deion Sanders, both thought of as players on other teams. Adderly had his best years on the Lombardi Packers' 1960s teams, and Deion will be remembered not only as a Cowboy but also for his years as a Falcon and 49er. Deion could probably be on the all-franchise teams for the Falcons, 49ers, Cowboys, Redskins and Ravens, although he didn't play the majority of his career with any of them. He didn't do diddly with the Redskins and had a few INTs with the Ravens, but based on his career he would get consideration for both.
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ragevsuall17


Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 6861
Location: TX
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I agree with you Ralph. I agree that Casper's career is more distinguised and decorated by far than Whycheck's. I just don't see him as an Oiler/Titan. Just like I'll never see Emmitt as a Cardinal, Campbell as a Saint, or McNair as a Raven (although some people might change their minds on that if he plays 3+ years and gets a ring). I just don't think that 2 years in our uniform makes him an all time best with us. Could anyone possibly see Jordan in the Wizards aqua green? Its just my personal opinion. But if its a list of all time best TE's in NFL history, yeah, Casper is a lot higher on that list than Wycheck.
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