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110 of 111 NFL Brains Studied Found to Have CTE
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Techbert


Joined: 24 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. I think most of the NFL players get their CTE in college, based on data I've seen but don't have in front of me. Some in HS. Most in college. A few in the pros. So NCAA football should be afraid, too. And HS.

But the main point is they need to get the right safety eqpt early (if it exists or gets developed), and not wait until after draft day.

2. Wonder who that 1 of 111 without CTE was. Surely a kicker.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techbert wrote:
1. I think most of the NFL players get their CTE in college, based on data I've seen but don't have in front of me. Some in HS. Most in college. A few in the pros. So NCAA football should be afraid, too. And HS.

But the main point is they need to get the right safety eqpt early (if it exists or gets developed), and not wait until after draft day.

2. Wonder who that 1 of 111 without CTE was. Surely a kicker.


There are 2 major caveats this research needs to be accompanied with (although it is certainly cause for concern).

1. Much of the actions that could have caused the CTE in past players whose brains were studied could have ocurred a LONG time ago, when equipment, safety, etc. would have been different. A 65 y.o. who just died and donated his brain to science would have started playing organized football at least 50 years ago, for example.

2. We still don't have a clear crosswalk from presence of CTE to effects. We have some very loose ideas, but nothing even remotely conclusive.

More study and research is what is needed, not reactionary hysteria (not directed at anyone in here).
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Badger75


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The evolution of this problem has taken decades. The players in the 1960's were bigger, stronger and more aggressive than other sports but height and weight by position was closer to normal. Plenty of 6' 250 lbs linemen.
The 1985 Bears featured 6' 300 lbs Wm Perry at NT, the first #1 pick at that weight. He was besieged by the medical community for his weight. That is now the norm on the D line.
Watch 1950s and early 60s video of college and pro games. No one is running at each other leading with the helmet. Arm-shoulder and hip tackling is the norm.
Sid Luckmans book from 1950 describes proper tackling technique (most QBs had to play DB). He states any tackler leading with the helmet is at risk for a broken neck.
The NYG Night Train Lane did that while playing on scholarship at Iowa. The Giants had him sign a waiver each year. His amazing pass coverage range included his hesitance to lower his head.
Vikings and Bears GM Jim Finks suffered a broken neck trying to make a tackle as a Steelers QB in the mid 1950s. Ended his playing career.
Rozelles marketing of big hits launched the modern ultra violent game.
Most players of the 1950s did not develop such prominent CTE problems.
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RuskieTitan


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The NFL is the modern day gladiator pit. Unlike the past, these athletes are extremely well compensated and looked after, and have the choice to walk away at any moment.

There's no loss of limbs or death like the roman gladiators, but they have to pay for it with brain damage and other injuries. They understand there are risks and do it because the lifestyle it provides them is superior to their other alternatives.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Hitch wrote:
Rich7sena wrote:
Bobikus wrote:
Suicide rates of NFL players relative to other people of their income/age/etc demographics would probably be interesting to look into actually.


According to the NFL's Operations website - which has curated sources to debunk what can be perceived as information detrimental to the league - NFL players commit suicide at less than half the rate of American men.

This, of course, should not deter the league's and elements outside the league to pursue long term player safety.


Thats surprising because rich people generally commit suicide more than poor people as well. I think famous people more than non famous people as well. Add on the post retirement difficulties (years of adulation suddenly coming to an end), the difficulty adjusting to a "normal life", the other health problems, I wouldn't have been surprised with a higher suicide rate even before taking into account the head injuries,


In addition to the two points I mention above, another is the concept of confounding variables that you hit on here.

One of the most interesting questions is whether there is something like high natural testosterone levels (or something else) that might cause this condition to be more prevalent (in the general population as well) that actually assists players at reaching the higher levels of football, including the NFL. Things like elevated aggression, etc. are rewarded and there could be some interplay there with the types of cognitive symptoms we see. Thus making comparisons to gen pop difficult.
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Badger75


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Badger75 wrote:
The evolution of this problem has taken decades. The players in the 1960's were bigger, stronger and more aggressive than other sports but height and weight by position was closer to normal. Plenty of 6' 250 lbs linemen.
The 1985 Bears featured 6' 300 lbs Wm Perry at NT, the first #1 pick at that weight. He was besieged by the medical community for his weight. That is now the norm on the D line.
Watch 1950s and early 60s video of college and pro games. No one is running at each other leading with the helmet. Arm-shoulder and hip tackling is the norm.
Sid Luckmans book from 1950 describes proper tackling technique (most QBs had to play DB). He states any tackler leading with the helmet is at risk for a broken neck.
The NYG Night Train Lane did that while playing on scholarship at Iowa. The Giants had him sign a waiver each year. His amazing pass coverage range included his hesitance to lower his head.
Vikings and Bears GM Jim Finks suffered a broken neck trying to make a tackle as a Steelers QB in the mid 1950s. Ended his playing career.
Rozelles marketing of big hits launched the modern ultra violent game.
Most players of the 1950s did not develop such prominent CTE problems.


The 1960s saw a surge in college and pro football using steroids. That surge included every sport and the Olympics. By the 1980s, an epicdemic in steroid use was causing bigger athletes with improved equipment and hs to college coaching to use the helmet as a weapon. The LA Raiders team doc Huizenga organized the phsycians committee. His book, Its Only a Bruise documents dangerous steroid use. The real danger dates to the 1960s moving forward. Idea
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joru1000


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Truth is, helmets really don't do much.

This is caused by the brain rattling in the skull. A guitarist in a death metal band for 20 years probably has these symptoms too from headbanging all the time. Boxers, too. The brain wasn't meant to rock back and forth. That's why lineman have it the worst when it comes to CTE. They are almost never involved in big hits, or major concussions, but almost every snap their heads got rocked back. That's why the "hands to the face" rule has been enforced so adamantly in recent years.

Truth is, American football as we know it is doomed. It's in need of a major reformation. Youth leagues are down all over the place because parents are afraid to let their kids play, and some prominent feeder middle schools have had to shut down their football programs because they couldn't find enough kids to field a proper team. The talent pool keeps getting smaller. Unless a cure is found, or at least a way to diagnose CTE in living victims, expect flag football in 10 years.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Its a degenerative, progressive disease, so while some have not yet succumbed to the symptoms, it doesn't mean there isn't a problem.


Here's the thing always overlooked in the hysteria. It's possible to have CTE scarring in your brain and not demonstrate any symptoms. Based on the actual evidence, it's in fact more likely you'll have CTE and no major issues/symptoms.

NFL players out perform or are the same as the general population across a wide range of metrics to include rates of depression, suicide, and life expectancy. Evidence does show a higher risk of cognitive decline/memory issues, but it's still quite low (1.9% for younger retirees, 6.1% for older ones).

Here's another McKee study that finds one batch of CTE cases were comparable or better than the general population in a host of metrics. It's strange how studies such as that don't generate headlines, though.

It's very hard to determine what problems are the result of CTE and just "normal." And, it may come off as heartless, but there are probably some high profile relatives/spouses who find it preferable to think that the person they cared about who struggled while alive had issues because of a brain condition than the alternative.

The way the media covers CTE is grossly irresponsible. Basically, it's not even close to being as big of a threat as its portrayed as. It's frankly kind of laughable that people think generations of football players before didn't have CTE. Or that no one ever noticed this supposed epidemic of football players offing themselves or turning into Muhammad Ali in their old age.

Frankly, the physical pain players suffer is probably a far larger and more significant issue than CTE.
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RabidPanther89


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I think the solution is to make football a more finesse sport. Rules changes. Less focus on the bigger stronger faster mentality. This would mean diluting the talent pool. I also think the game should be more accessible to the average naturally gifted athlete, more the way rugby and soccer leagues are in Europe. This would be a major change at the college level as well.

Even if the NFL had slightly less gifted, slightly slower, less huge and powerful dudes playing; people would still watch the game and it would be safer.

I've watched football all my life and it is the worlds best game. But what is going is morally wrong and it will be below us as society eventually. I understand the athletes are paid handsomely for the risk. But all that means is that the system is acknowledging how screwed up the game is.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I've watched football all my life and it is the worlds best game. But what is going is morally wrong and it will be below us as society eventually. I understand the athletes are paid handsomely for the risk. But all that means is that the system is acknowledging how screwed up the game is.


Athletes aren't paid for the risks they take. The money NFL players make is based on their athletic ability and how much money it brings in. There's competition for their services from other sports leagues in some sense and they have collective bargaining to get a larger cut of the profits. They are paid well because they are elite at what they do.

There are people who play football professionally who make far less because they are inferior athletes in general and in leagues that bring in far less. There are amateur leagues, the arena leagues, and so on.

This is basic economics 101 stuff. It has little to do with the risk or else soldiers and miners would be far better compensated than NFL players.

The morality argument might hold a bit more water if the people making it actually had facts on their side rather than hysteria. Men have been playing contact sports across all cultures for the entirety of human existence. Often for free.

Studies done on soccer and rugby players would likely show high rates of CTE, as well. Limited work done has already demonstrated that CTE is common in the brains of other athletes. This is an area of limited study and sample sizes where most of the focus has been on the largest American sport.
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RabidPanther89


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Quote:

I've watched football all my life and it is the worlds best game. But what is going is morally wrong and it will be below us as society eventually. I understand the athletes are paid handsomely for the risk. But all that means is that the system is acknowledging how screwed up the game is.


Athletes aren't paid for the risks they take. The money NFL players make is based on their athletic ability and how much money it brings in. There's competition for their services from other sports leagues in some sense and they have collective bargaining to get a larger cut of the profits. They are paid well because they are elite at what they do.

There are people who play football professionally who make far less because they are inferior athletes in general and in leagues that bring in far less. There are amateur leagues, the arena leagues, and so on.

This is basic economics 101 stuff. It has little to do with the risk or else soldiers and miners would be far better compensated than NFL players.

The morality argument might hold a bit more water if the people making it actually had facts on their side rather than hysteria. Men have been playing contact sports across all cultures for the entirety of human existence. Often for free.

Studies done on soccer and rugby players would likely show high rates of CTE, as well. Limited work done has already demonstrated that CTE is common in the brains of other athletes. This is an area of limited study and sample sizes where most of the focus has been on the largest American sport.


Yet I am willing to bet it is higher in football because the pressure is greater to gain more weight , be stronger and hit harder. Most players in the NFL are all on something. Supplements, steroids, HGH. That's because the game pressures them to do so. The market makes them to that. They learn those habits in highschool and college. It is morally screwed up. I highly doubt CTE is common in soccer and Rugby. If there is it is significantly less than the NFL. That's because they are playing at a normal human weight without pads to take away their fearlessness when hitting.

We all hear stories about a dude getting their neck broken or their brain concussed and the offender says, " I didn't mean to hurt him". That's a load of crap because the game teaches defenses to smash and destroy people. That and human health don't coincide. Either society accepts the brutality of the sport or they change the rules to make it less aggressive and brutal.
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El ramster


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Boxing has existed for over 100 years the NFL is fine.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you are saying isn't supported by the actual science. Limited research has been done on the brains of soccer players, but:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170215131600.htm

Female soccer had the highest rate of concussions of any youth sport from 2010-2015.

Youth Rugby has been found to have a far higher risk of concussions than football and hockey:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-concussion-youth-sports-idUSKBN0TZ2RE20151216

The reality is that far more study has been done on the brains of football players than other sports.

Quote:
That's a load of crap because the game teaches defenses to smash and destroy people. That and human health don't coincide. Either society accepts the brutality of the sport or they change the rules to make it less aggressive and brutal.


There's a blatant disconnect in your post between the two paragraphs where on one hand you want to argue that this is a moral issue (for society, which is a laughable notion to me) while you start by trying to differentiate football based on the degree of risk. If this is a matter of morality, it's pretty silly to try and split hairs over the level of risk. Rugby and even soccer put people at risk of suffering CTE. CTE is either bad or it isn't. Risking CTE for the entertainment of others (and for profit) is either bad or it isn't. We know that some rugby and soccer players will suffer CTE even if we don't know the relative rates compared to football. What you are arguing here isn't a matter of principle at all. It's not a matter of morals.

Even then, let's reemphasize that you don't actually have the evidence to back up the claim that football is really particularly dangerous to mental health let alone that simply reducing the size of players would change much. Rugby has smaller athletes, but far higher rates of concussions. And there's nothing I've ever seen which demonstrates clearly what causes CTE beyond brain trauma.

Final point - society is nothing more than a generalized term to describe the aggregate individuals within it. What we are really talking about here is robbing individuals of the freedom to make choices for themselves.

This is especially appalling to me because the evidence is very often twisted and misrepresented. And that doesn't seem to be an argument you are at all willing or capable of having.

Most individuals with CTE simply don't have any serious symptoms as far as we can tell. Most symptoms actually seem to be minor and not dramatic at all. And there's no long term research to indicate just how prevalent CTE has been throughout human history. There's no evidence to support the claim that football has become more dangerous over time or that simply reducing the size of players would reduce the rate of CTE. The vast majority of people who have CTE actually live perfectly normal lives to say nothing of what benefits sports provide that various individuals who play them. Not just financially, either.
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RabidPanther89


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
What you are saying isn't supported by the actual science. Limited research has been done on the brains of soccer players, but:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170215131600.htm

Female soccer had the highest rate of concussions of any youth sport from 2010-2015.

Youth Rugby has been found to have a far higher risk of concussions than football and hockey:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-concussion-youth-sports-idUSKBN0TZ2RE20151216

The reality is that far more study has been done on the brains of football players than other sports.

Quote:
That's a load of crap because the game teaches defenses to smash and destroy people. That and human health don't coincide. Either society accepts the brutality of the sport or they change the rules to make it less aggressive and brutal.


There's a blatant disconnect in your post between the two paragraphs where on one hand you want to argue that this is a moral issue (for society, which is a laughable notion to me) while you start by trying to differentiate football based on the degree of risk. If this is a matter of morality, it's pretty silly to try and split hairs over the level of risk. Rugby and even soccer put people at risk of suffering CTE. CTE is either bad or it isn't. Risking CTE for the entertainment of others (and for profit) is either bad or it isn't. We know that some rugby and soccer players will suffer CTE even if we don't know the relative rates compared to football. What you are arguing here isn't a matter of principle at all. It's not a matter of morals.

Even then, let's reemphasize that you don't actually have the evidence to back up the claim that football is really particularly dangerous to mental health let alone that simply reducing the size of players would change much. Rugby has smaller athletes, but far higher rates of concussions. And there's nothing I've ever seen which demonstrates clearly what causes CTE beyond brain trauma.

Final point - society is nothing more than a generalized term to describe the aggregate individuals within it. What we are really talking about here is robbing individuals of the freedom to make choices for themselves.

This is especially appalling to me because the evidence is very often twisted and misrepresented. And that doesn't seem to be an argument you are at all willing or capable of having.

Most individuals with CTE simply don't have any serious symptoms as far as we can tell. Most symptoms actually seem to be minor and not dramatic at all. And there's no long term research to indicate just how prevalent CTE has been throughout human history. There's no evidence to support the claim that football has become more dangerous over time or that simply reducing the size of players would reduce the rate of CTE. The vast majority of people who have CTE actually live perfectly normal lives to say nothing of what benefits sports provide that various individuals who play them. Not just financially, either.


I'm not making a compelling argument either way. I am commenting. I'm saying we either accept the dangers of what the sport can cause. Or we we adapt the game enlight of science and what it says is hurting people. I am against people getting their brains scrambled for fun .Rugby and Soccer dont have the culture of blowing people up like football does. More and more players are retiring early. They are wising up and there is a reason for that.

I've watched 3 players on my team get concussed this year. Keuchly, whos was horrifying to watch. Michael' Oher who is basically being forced to retire . And lastly Cam Newton who was head hunted and not protected from officiating several times last season. It's a prevelant problem in the sport. And at the end of the day it if it's happening in other sports then that's a problem too.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not making a compelling argument either way. I am commenting.


Quote:
I am against people getting their brains scrambled for fun .


I'll let the quotes speak for themselves. You are clearly putting forward a positive argument here and not just commenting.

Quote:
Rugby and Soccer dont have the culture of blowing people up like football does.


Here's what bothers me. If you are so against the culture of the sport, and you find it morally repugnant, why are you a fan in the first place? There's this aspect to all of this where people want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want to clutch pearls and condemn it while enjoying it.

Frankly, even before anything with CTE was making headlines, the sport was violent with the risk of parallelization and death. Guys get hurt in all kinds of ways that leave their bodies aching well after the fact. And even if you had never heard of CTE, everyone already knew repeated blows to the head weren't good.

Yet, you became a fan of said sport and invested time and probably money into it, anyway.
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