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Let's get hypothetical: Kirk Cousins edition
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buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 40997
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaWg_LB. wrote:


With Cousins, IMO he's not an elite QB, he's a product of an offense that had a bunch of weapons and who had his best year overall (not just in yards) in 2015 when he had Kyle Shannahan and Sean McVey as his position coach and OC....


A bunch of weapons?

In '15 his leading two rushers were Morris at 750 yards and Jones at 490. A mediocre rushing attack. He also only had one receivers play all 16games and that was Pierre Garcon and he had a decent season.

Look at '16, rushing attack was similar buy maybe worse, with Kelly at 704yards and Jones at 460. He had two receivers play in all 16games in Garcon and Jackson and those guys werent making him look better, pretty sure he was one of the top QBs in yards through the airs. Its not like he was throwing shorts passes and the WRs were just making crazy plays for him.

No way would I say the weapons for the Redskins made Cousins look better

Yeah he looked good in Shannys and McVeys schemes but thats the whole point. You want players to look good in your scheme. It makes everything work! You are a moron if you take a QB who excels in say the WCO system and try and make him be a QB in a Vertical passing attack. I bet you Manning would of been an awful QB if you put hi in a Option type offense. There is a reason BB and Brady are so good, the system is a perfect marriage for them.
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DizzyDean


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BwickRedux wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
BwickRedux wrote:
Admittedly, he'll never be in that upper echelon of QBs.


Trimmed the fat of this giant but good post to get to the part I wanted. Right here is your answer. He will never be in that upper echelon but he will be paid as if he is, and in trade compensation he will demand compensation as if he is.

Is not that everyone is saying that they would rather keep searching in uncertainty rather than trade for him. We don't want to sell off the team for him in a multi faceted overpayment.


Trimmed the fat?!?! My posts are alllllll muscle baby! SIZE IS THE PRIZE! SWOLE IS THE GOAL!

...anywho, here's my last point regarding trade compensation: In addition to the lack of leverage the Redskins have to command a huge return (given they'll get nothing but a '19 comp pick if he walks next season), don't put it past Dan Snyder to try to screw over Kyle Shanahan one last time by doing what he can to ultimately divert Cousins away from San Fran - if that means taking a fair deal for Cousins instead of an inflated one that no one would pay for a *potential* rental anyway, I could see him agreeing to that.


He will still command a Tom Brady worthy contract that will make the Brock deal that everyone hates seem like pocket change. Even if it didn't cost a single draft pick, it's still not worth it.
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buno67


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DizzyDean wrote:
BwickRedux wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
BwickRedux wrote:
Admittedly, he'll never be in that upper echelon of QBs.


Trimmed the fat of this giant but good post to get to the part I wanted. Right here is your answer. He will never be in that upper echelon but he will be paid as if he is, and in trade compensation he will demand compensation as if he is.

Is not that everyone is saying that they would rather keep searching in uncertainty rather than trade for him. We don't want to sell off the team for him in a multi faceted overpayment.


Trimmed the fat?!?! My posts are alllllll muscle baby! SIZE IS THE PRIZE! SWOLE IS THE GOAL!

...anywho, here's my last point regarding trade compensation: In addition to the lack of leverage the Redskins have to command a huge return (given they'll get nothing but a '19 comp pick if he walks next season), don't put it past Dan Snyder to try to screw over Kyle Shanahan one last time by doing what he can to ultimately divert Cousins away from San Fran - if that means taking a fair deal for Cousins instead of an inflated one that no one would pay for a *potential* rental anyway, I could see him agreeing to that.


He will still command a Tom Brady worthy contract that will make the Brock deal that everyone hates seem like pocket change. Even if it did. It cost a single draft pick, it's still not worth it.


everyone hated the brock contract because he didnt really earn that kind of Money. People wont hate the Cousins contract because he has actually earned it to a point by playing pretty freaking great the past two seasons.
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.
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DizzyDean


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The example of Brady and the Pats system is a very poor example because there is no real system there. It varies from year to year and is molded based on the roster. Back in the early days they were run first around Corey Dillon. They they were a deep passing team with moss. Then a short passing team with gronk, Hernandez, and welker. Bellichick and Brady both have earned the label of the greatest at what they do, like them or not they are adaptable and can do it all in their respective roles.
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DaWg_LB.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:


With Cousins, IMO he's not an elite QB, he's a product of an offense that had a bunch of weapons and who had his best year overall (not just in yards) in 2015 when he had Kyle Shannahan and Sean McVey as his position coach and OC....


A bunch of weapons?

In '15 his leading two rushers were Morris at 750 yards and Jones at 490. A mediocre rushing attack. He also only had one receivers play all 16games and that was Pierre Garcon and he had a decent season.

Look at '16, rushing attack was similar buy maybe worse, with Kelly at 704yards and Jones at 460. He had two receivers play in all 16games in Garcon and Jackson and those guys werent making him look better, pretty sure he was one of the top QBs in yards through the airs. Its not like he was throwing shorts passes and the WRs were just making crazy plays for him.

No way would I say the weapons for the Redskins made Cousins look better

Yeah he looked good in Shannys and McVeys schemes but thats the whole point. You want players to look good in your scheme. It makes everything work! You are a moron if you take a QB who excels in say the WCO system and try and make him be a QB in a Vertical passing attack. I bet you Manning would of been an awful QB if you put hi in a Option type offense. There is a reason BB and Brady are so good, the system is a perfect marriage for them.


Then we must agree to disagree....with Garcon and Jackson along with Jordan Reed and Jameson Crowder (who had a solid rookie season and even better second season), and Vernon Davis who had a solid year also in 2016.....unless your saying cousins would put up the same numbers with the Wr's and TE's we had last year?
And thank you for helping my point of view...yes cousins was one of the leauge leaders in yards through the air...but do you think he would be able to do that if Jackson was running over the top of CB's and Jordan Reed wasnt blowing by Safties in the seam? I assure you Garry Barnage wasn't beating pro bowl safties up the seam....

Now this next question, lets look at it within reason....not I'm not saying you put Peyton Manning in the RGIII 2014 read option...or course he would fail. I've seen Brady run a West coast system, a Deep Ball system and a passing game built off TE's...Bill B is a Defensive coach...and his offense coordinators have changed significantly over the years, and so has his offensive system yet Brady keeps plugging along and winning championships....
Are you saying Kirk Cousins will perform at the same level when he does not have the weapons he has had access to, and without two of the Brightest Offensive minds in the game drawing up a perfect passing game based off his strengths, not to mention one of the best Oline coaches in the NFL drawing up protection schemes for him.
I think if you put Alex Smith or Andy Dalton on that skins team with Shanny and McVey, they put up the same numbers as cousins....
Put Cousins in the Rams offense last year, he dosent put up NEAR the numbers he does IMO...you put Brady on that same Rams team...they make the playoffs IMO.

Humbly Submitted.
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DaWg_LB.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
Bernie had one Pro Bowl year and it was 30 years ago.

The fact that we've trotted out the most epic collection of goobers since then has overinflated his accomplishments IMO.


Being in back to back AFC Championship games buys you every bit of good will available in Ohio.


Your both right....maybe its me waxing poetically about Bernie and the Kardiac Kids....
I'm still a LOT less impressed with Kirk Cousins then some. 3 of the best Offensive coaches in the leauge (Shanny, McVey and Callahan) and the multitude of weapons (Garcon, Jackson, Crowder, Reed and Chris Thompson out of the backfield). Hard not to succeed with all of that....You give Brady that and he throws for 6000 yards IMO.
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buno67


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaWg_LB. wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:


With Cousins, IMO he's not an elite QB, he's a product of an offense that had a bunch of weapons and who had his best year overall (not just in yards) in 2015 when he had Kyle Shannahan and Sean McVey as his position coach and OC....


A bunch of weapons?

In '15 his leading two rushers were Morris at 750 yards and Jones at 490. A mediocre rushing attack. He also only had one receivers play all 16games and that was Pierre Garcon and he had a decent season.

Look at '16, rushing attack was similar buy maybe worse, with Kelly at 704yards and Jones at 460. He had two receivers play in all 16games in Garcon and Jackson and those guys werent making him look better, pretty sure he was one of the top QBs in yards through the airs. Its not like he was throwing shorts passes and the WRs were just making crazy plays for him.

No way would I say the weapons for the Redskins made Cousins look better

Yeah he looked good in Shannys and McVeys schemes but thats the whole point. You want players to look good in your scheme. It makes everything work! You are a moron if you take a QB who excels in say the WCO system and try and make him be a QB in a Vertical passing attack. I bet you Manning would of been an awful QB if you put hi in a Option type offense. There is a reason BB and Brady are so good, the system is a perfect marriage for them.


Then we must agree to disagree....with Garcon and Jackson along with Jordan Reed and Jameson Crowder (who had a solid rookie season and even better second season), and Vernon Davis who had a solid year also in 2016.....unless your saying cousins would put up the same numbers with the Wr's and TE's we had last year?
And thank you for helping my point of view...yes cousins was one of the leauge leaders in yards through the air...but do you think he would be able to do that if Jackson was running over the top of CB's and Jordan Reed wasnt blowing by Safties in the seam? I assure you Garry Barnage wasn't beating pro bowl safties up the seam....

Now this next question, lets look at it within reason....not I'm not saying you put Peyton Manning in the RGIII 2014 read option...or course he would fail. I've seen Brady run a West coast system, a Deep Ball system and a passing game built off TE's...Bill B is a Defensive coach...and his offense coordinators have changed significantly over the years, and so has his offensive system yet Brady keeps plugging along and winning championships....
Are you saying Kirk Cousins will perform at the same level when he does not have the weapons he has had access to, and without two of the Brightest Offensive minds in the game drawing up a perfect passing game based off his strengths, not to mention one of the best Oline coaches in the NFL drawing up protection schemes for him.
I think if you put Alex Smith or Andy Dalton on that skins team with Shanny and McVey, they put up the same numbers as cousins....
Put Cousins in the Rams offense last year, he dosent put up NEAR the numbers he does IMO...you put Brady on that same Rams team...they make the playoffs IMO.

Humbly Submitted.


I can go into this in more detail later while I'm at my computer. I'm not saying he made that offense but I'm not saying he is a product of the weapons he has. He had a solid cast of weapons around him. To me if you sucked wih that kind of talent around you, than you are a bad QB. But I also believe if you put an avg QB in that position, they still won't put up the numbers like Cousins did. When I think of surrounding talent making a QB better I'm looking at the 07 browns and what that talent did for Anderson, Brad Johnson with the Bucks. Brock with the Broncos, and etc
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NudeTayne


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:


With Cousins, IMO he's not an elite QB, he's a product of an offense that had a bunch of weapons and who had his best year overall (not just in yards) in 2015 when he had Kyle Shannahan and Sean McVey as his position coach and OC....


A bunch of weapons?

In '15 his leading two rushers were Morris at 750 yards and Jones at 490. A mediocre rushing attack. He also only had one receivers play all 16games and that was Pierre Garcon and he had a decent season.

Look at '16, rushing attack was similar buy maybe worse, with Kelly at 704yards and Jones at 460. He had two receivers play in all 16games in Garcon and Jackson and those guys werent making him look better, pretty sure he was one of the top QBs in yards through the airs. Its not like he was throwing shorts passes and the WRs were just making crazy plays for him.

No way would I say the weapons for the Redskins made Cousins look better

Yeah he looked good in Shannys and McVeys schemes but thats the whole point. You want players to look good in your scheme. It makes everything work! You are a moron if you take a QB who excels in say the WCO system and try and make him be a QB in a Vertical passing attack. I bet you Manning would of been an awful QB if you put hi in a Option type offense. There is a reason BB and Brady are so good, the system is a perfect marriage for them.


Then we must agree to disagree....with Garcon and Jackson along with Jordan Reed and Jameson Crowder (who had a solid rookie season and even better second season), and Vernon Davis who had a solid year also in 2016.....unless your saying cousins would put up the same numbers with the Wr's and TE's we had last year?
And thank you for helping my point of view...yes cousins was one of the leauge leaders in yards through the air...but do you think he would be able to do that if Jackson was running over the top of CB's and Jordan Reed wasnt blowing by Safties in the seam? I assure you Garry Barnage wasn't beating pro bowl safties up the seam....

Now this next question, lets look at it within reason....not I'm not saying you put Peyton Manning in the RGIII 2014 read option...or course he would fail. I've seen Brady run a West coast system, a Deep Ball system and a passing game built off TE's...Bill B is a Defensive coach...and his offense coordinators have changed significantly over the years, and so has his offensive system yet Brady keeps plugging along and winning championships....
Are you saying Kirk Cousins will perform at the same level when he does not have the weapons he has had access to, and without two of the Brightest Offensive minds in the game drawing up a perfect passing game based off his strengths, not to mention one of the best Oline coaches in the NFL drawing up protection schemes for him.
I think if you put Alex Smith or Andy Dalton on that skins team with Shanny and McVey, they put up the same numbers as cousins....
Put Cousins in the Rams offense last year, he dosent put up NEAR the numbers he does IMO...you put Brady on that same Rams team...they make the playoffs IMO.

Humbly Submitted.


I can go into this in more detail later while I'm at my computer. I'm not saying he made that offense but I'm not saying he is a product of the weapons he has. He had a solid cast of weapons around him. To me if you sucked wih that kind of talent around you, than you are a bad QB. But I also believe if you put an avg QB in that position, they still won't put up the numbers like Cousins did. When I think of surrounding talent making a QB better I'm looking at the 07 browns and what that talent did for Anderson, Brad Johnson with the Bucks. Brock with the Broncos, and etc


Gonna put my status as everyone's favorite poster in jeopardy by putting this out there: if we don't believe we have our QBOTF on our roster and we can get Cousins reasonably affordably (like two seconds plus Osweiler), we should trade for Cousins. My other account (buno67) makes some solid points.

At this point, a narrative has been established that Cousins is overrated. I see a consistent edge-of-elite starter better than the likes of Flacco, Eli etc. He will get 5/140 in free agency, which will be surpassed again soon as the cap continues to climb. I like Kessler and Kizer, but if Hue/Sashi decide these guys aren't going to be anything special, I trade for Cousins. I see Drew Brees potential. The system QB statement is not based in reality IMO. This is the NFL; Alex Smith didn't turn into a stat monster just because he went to a better (and stable for development) system. He just became more efficient. Cousins is accurate, confident and a leader. He is 28, healthy and happy to keep grinding and improving--get the sense that he wants to be great.

The narrative on his perceived weapons is odd to me as well. Since when do two high end #2 receivers, great tight ends and a crap running game explain his top tier production over multiple seasons? His weapons are the epitome of league average overall to me. He is already twice the QB Brock will ever be.

That punchable face tho.
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Bonanza23


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NudeTayne wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:


With Cousins, IMO he's not an elite QB, he's a product of an offense that had a bunch of weapons and who had his best year overall (not just in yards) in 2015 when he had Kyle Shannahan and Sean McVey as his position coach and OC....


A bunch of weapons?

In '15 his leading two rushers were Morris at 750 yards and Jones at 490. A mediocre rushing attack. He also only had one receivers play all 16games and that was Pierre Garcon and he had a decent season.

Look at '16, rushing attack was similar buy maybe worse, with Kelly at 704yards and Jones at 460. He had two receivers play in all 16games in Garcon and Jackson and those guys werent making him look better, pretty sure he was one of the top QBs in yards through the airs. Its not like he was throwing shorts passes and the WRs were just making crazy plays for him.

No way would I say the weapons for the Redskins made Cousins look better

Yeah he looked good in Shannys and McVeys schemes but thats the whole point. You want players to look good in your scheme. It makes everything work! You are a moron if you take a QB who excels in say the WCO system and try and make him be a QB in a Vertical passing attack. I bet you Manning would of been an awful QB if you put hi in a Option type offense. There is a reason BB and Brady are so good, the system is a perfect marriage for them.


Then we must agree to disagree....with Garcon and Jackson along with Jordan Reed and Jameson Crowder (who had a solid rookie season and even better second season), and Vernon Davis who had a solid year also in 2016.....unless your saying cousins would put up the same numbers with the Wr's and TE's we had last year?
And thank you for helping my point of view...yes cousins was one of the leauge leaders in yards through the air...but do you think he would be able to do that if Jackson was running over the top of CB's and Jordan Reed wasnt blowing by Safties in the seam? I assure you Garry Barnage wasn't beating pro bowl safties up the seam....

Now this next question, lets look at it within reason....not I'm not saying you put Peyton Manning in the RGIII 2014 read option...or course he would fail. I've seen Brady run a West coast system, a Deep Ball system and a passing game built off TE's...Bill B is a Defensive coach...and his offense coordinators have changed significantly over the years, and so has his offensive system yet Brady keeps plugging along and winning championships....
Are you saying Kirk Cousins will perform at the same level when he does not have the weapons he has had access to, and without two of the Brightest Offensive minds in the game drawing up a perfect passing game based off his strengths, not to mention one of the best Oline coaches in the NFL drawing up protection schemes for him.
I think if you put Alex Smith or Andy Dalton on that skins team with Shanny and McVey, they put up the same numbers as cousins....
Put Cousins in the Rams offense last year, he dosent put up NEAR the numbers he does IMO...you put Brady on that same Rams team...they make the playoffs IMO.

Humbly Submitted.


I can go into this in more detail later while I'm at my computer. I'm not saying he made that offense but I'm not saying he is a product of the weapons he has. He had a solid cast of weapons around him. To me if you sucked wih that kind of talent around you, than you are a bad QB. But I also believe if you put an avg QB in that position, they still won't put up the numbers like Cousins did. When I think of surrounding talent making a QB better I'm looking at the 07 browns and what that talent did for Anderson, Brad Johnson with the Bucks. Brock with the Broncos, and etc


Gonna put my status as everyone's favorite poster in jeopardy by puttingb this out there: if we don't believe we have our QBOTF on our roster and we can get Cousins reasonably affordably (like two seconds), we should trade for Cousins. My other account (buno67) makes some solid points.

At this point, a narrative has been established that Cousins is overrated. I see a consistent edge-of-elite starter better than the likes of Flacco, Eli etc. He will get 5/140 in free agency, which will be surpassed again soon as the cap continues to climb. I like Kessler and Kizer, but if Hue/Sashi decide these guys aren't going to be anything special, I trade for Cousins. I see Drew Brees potential. The system QB statement is not based in reality IMO. This is the NFL; Alex Smith didn't turn into a stat monster just because he went to a better (and stable-P -ben development) system. Here just became more efficient. Cousins is accurate, confident and a leader. He is 28, healthy and happy to keep grinding and improving--get the sense that he wants to be great.

That punchable face tho.


You're no longer my favorite poster. That's by default going to NudeTayne.

And I think he's kind of hot. You guys would probably consider my face punchable too. Razz
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DizzyDean


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 round 2 picks, brock, and possibly the richest contract in the NFL for cousins?

No thank you, this is not a young Tom Brady!
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DaWg_LB.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:


With Cousins, IMO he's not an elite QB, he's a product of an offense that had a bunch of weapons and who had his best year overall (not just in yards) in 2015 when he had Kyle Shannahan and Sean McVey as his position coach and OC....


A bunch of weapons?

In '15 his leading two rushers were Morris at 750 yards and Jones at 490. A mediocre rushing attack. He also only had one receivers play all 16games and that was Pierre Garcon and he had a decent season.

Look at '16, rushing attack was similar buy maybe worse, with Kelly at 704yards and Jones at 460. He had two receivers play in all 16games in Garcon and Jackson and those guys werent making him look better, pretty sure he was one of the top QBs in yards through the airs. Its not like he was throwing shorts passes and the WRs were just making crazy plays for him.

No way would I say the weapons for the Redskins made Cousins look better

Yeah he looked good in Shannys and McVeys schemes but thats the whole point. You want players to look good in your scheme. It makes everything work! You are a moron if you take a QB who excels in say the WCO system and try and make him be a QB in a Vertical passing attack. I bet you Manning would of been an awful QB if you put hi in a Option type offense. There is a reason BB and Brady are so good, the system is a perfect marriage for them.


Then we must agree to disagree....with Garcon and Jackson along with Jordan Reed and Jameson Crowder (who had a solid rookie season and even better second season), and Vernon Davis who had a solid year also in 2016.....unless your saying cousins would put up the same numbers with the Wr's and TE's we had last year?
And thank you for helping my point of view...yes cousins was one of the leauge leaders in yards through the air...but do you think he would be able to do that if Jackson was running over the top of CB's and Jordan Reed wasnt blowing by Safties in the seam? I assure you Garry Barnage wasn't beating pro bowl safties up the seam....

Now this next question, lets look at it within reason....not I'm not saying you put Peyton Manning in the RGIII 2014 read option...or course he would fail. I've seen Brady run a West coast system, a Deep Ball system and a passing game built off TE's...Bill B is a Defensive coach...and his offense coordinators have changed significantly over the years, and so has his offensive system yet Brady keeps plugging along and winning championships....
Are you saying Kirk Cousins will perform at the same level when he does not have the weapons he has had access to, and without two of the Brightest Offensive minds in the game drawing up a perfect passing game based off his strengths, not to mention one of the best Oline coaches in the NFL drawing up protection schemes for him.
I think if you put Alex Smith or Andy Dalton on that skins team with Shanny and McVey, they put up the same numbers as cousins....
Put Cousins in the Rams offense last year, he dosent put up NEAR the numbers he does IMO...you put Brady on that same Rams team...they make the playoffs IMO.

Humbly Submitted.


I can go into this in more detail later while I'm at my computer. I'm not saying he made that offense but I'm not saying he is a product of the weapons he has. He had a solid cast of weapons around him. To me if you sucked wih that kind of talent around you, than you are a bad QB. But I also believe if you put an avg QB in that position, they still won't put up the numbers like Cousins did. When I think of surrounding talent making a QB better I'm looking at the 07 browns and what that talent did for Anderson, Brad Johnson with the Bucks. Brock with the Broncos, and etc


And I respect your point of view, I just have a different one...to me cousins is not the type of QB that "Elevates" the Wr's around him...like a Drew Brees, Arron Rogers, Rapelessburger, Tom Brady and I dont feel that Cousins does that. Maybe I'm Wrong....could be....but its my opinion based off watching him live (I live in the DC (17 years) area and attend about 2-3 games a year) and on TV.
And one of the Brothers mentioned that his "2 #2 WR's"....IMO there are only 10-12 #1 WR's currently in the NFL (would be higher if Josh Gordon could get his act together)...IMO just because you play the #1 WR role, dosent make you a #1...Kenny Britt is a great example....IMO, #1 Wr's are Wr that would instantly become the #1 WR on 20 NFL teams. A Wr who's going to produce consistently year in and year out no matter who's the QB...(my list is: AJ Green, A. Brown, D. Hopkins, D. thomas, J. Jones, OBJ, D. Bryant, A. Jefferies and B. Cooks...theres room on the list). having said that, when you do have 2 #2 WR and one of them is one of the top 5 deep threats in the entire leauge, and the other is in the top 5 as far as possession receivers IMO...couple that with one of the Rare TE's who can function as a #1 "Reciever" (Gronk, T.Eiferet, T. Kelce, G. Olson, Jimmy Grahm and Jordon Reed ). I call those weapons far from league Average IMO.
Two of the top 5 #2's in the entire NFL (IMO) and a #1 weapon receiving weapon TE....I just have a different opinion...Not saying I'm right or your wrong. We just see things different.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaWg_LB. wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:


With Cousins, IMO he's not an elite QB, he's a product of an offense that had a bunch of weapons and who had his best year overall (not just in yards) in 2015 when he had Kyle Shannahan and Sean McVey as his position coach and OC....


A bunch of weapons?

In '15 his leading two rushers were Morris at 750 yards and Jones at 490. A mediocre rushing attack. He also only had one receivers play all 16games and that was Pierre Garcon and he had a decent season.

Look at '16, rushing attack was similar buy maybe worse, with Kelly at 704yards and Jones at 460. He had two receivers play in all 16games in Garcon and Jackson and those guys werent making him look better, pretty sure he was one of the top QBs in yards through the airs. Its not like he was throwing shorts passes and the WRs were just making crazy plays for him.

No way would I say the weapons for the Redskins made Cousins look better

Yeah he looked good in Shannys and McVeys schemes but thats the whole point. You want players to look good in your scheme. It makes everything work! You are a moron if you take a QB who excels in say the WCO system and try and make him be a QB in a Vertical passing attack. I bet you Manning would of been an awful QB if you put hi in a Option type offense. There is a reason BB and Brady are so good, the system is a perfect marriage for them.


Then we must agree to disagree....with Garcon and Jackson along with Jordan Reed and Jameson Crowder (who had a solid rookie season and even better second season), and Vernon Davis who had a solid year also in 2016.....unless your saying cousins would put up the same numbers with the Wr's and TE's we had last year?
And thank you for helping my point of view...yes cousins was one of the leauge leaders in yards through the air...but do you think he would be able to do that if Jackson was running over the top of CB's and Jordan Reed wasnt blowing by Safties in the seam? I assure you Garry Barnage wasn't beating pro bowl safties up the seam....

Now this next question, lets look at it within reason....not I'm not saying you put Peyton Manning in the RGIII 2014 read option...or course he would fail. I've seen Brady run a West coast system, a Deep Ball system and a passing game built off TE's...Bill B is a Defensive coach...and his offense coordinators have changed significantly over the years, and so has his offensive system yet Brady keeps plugging along and winning championships....
Are you saying Kirk Cousins will perform at the same level when he does not have the weapons he has had access to, and without two of the Brightest Offensive minds in the game drawing up a perfect passing game based off his strengths, not to mention one of the best Oline coaches in the NFL drawing up protection schemes for him.
I think if you put Alex Smith or Andy Dalton on that skins team with Shanny and McVey, they put up the same numbers as cousins....
Put Cousins in the Rams offense last year, he dosent put up NEAR the numbers he does IMO...you put Brady on that same Rams team...they make the playoffs IMO.

Humbly Submitted.


I can go into this in more detail later while I'm at my computer. I'm not saying he made that offense but I'm not saying he is a product of the weapons he has. He had a solid cast of weapons around him. To me if you sucked wih that kind of talent around you, than you are a bad QB. But I also believe if you put an avg QB in that position, they still won't put up the numbers like Cousins did. When I think of surrounding talent making a QB better I'm looking at the 07 browns and what that talent did for Anderson, Brad Johnson with the Bucks. Brock with the Broncos, and etc


And I respect your point of view, I just have a different one...to me cousins is not the type of QB that "Elevates" the Wr's around him...like a Drew Brees, Arron Rogers, Rapelessburger, Tom Brady and I dont feel that Cousins does that. Maybe I'm Wrong....could be....but its my opinion based off watching him live (I live in the DC (17 years) area and attend about 2-3 games a year) and on TV.
And one of the Brothers mentioned that his "2 #2 WR's"....IMO there are only 10-12 #1 WR's currently in the NFL (would be higher if Josh Gordon could get his act together)...IMO just because you play the #1 WR role, dosent make you a #1...Kenny Britt is a great example....IMO, #1 Wr's are Wr that would instantly become the #1 WR on 20 NFL teams. A Wr who's going to produce consistently year in and year out no matter who's the QB...(my list is: AJ Green, A. Brown, D. Hopkins, D. thomas, J. Jones, OBJ, D. Bryant, A. Jefferies and B. Cooks...theres room on the list). having said that, when you do have 2 #2 WR and one of them is one of the top 5 deep threats in the entire leauge, and the other is in the top 5 as far as possession receivers IMO...couple that with one of the Rare TE's who can function as a #1 "Reciever" (Gronk, T.Eiferet, T. Kelce, G. Olson, Jimmy Grahm and Jordon Reed ). I call those weapons far from league Average IMO.
Two of the top 5 #2's in the entire NFL (IMO) and a #1 weapon receiving weapon TE....I just have a different opinion...Not saying I'm right or your wrong. We just see things different.


How do we know Cousin's cant reach the level of being a QB who Elevates the talent around him. You name off Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Rapelessburger but I dont remember those games making everyone better the instant they became a starter. It took them a couple of seasons to reach a level that they are now well established QBs and then took everyone else to the next level. Cousins has only been a starter for only two seasons.

I know how good the talent around Cousins, but dont you think the likes of his pass catchers benefit having a QB who can throw pretty damn accurate at such a high level with out it being a constant dink and dunk attack. Cousins did lead the lead last year in having the most yards through the air. So its not like he was throwing short routes and the pass catchers are then just eating up the yards. I want to say his avg pass was 8.11 yards, 3rd highest in the league but yet he completed 67% of his passes. Only QBs with a higher avg and a higher percentage was Brady and Matt Ryan.

Washington has talent but their talent doesnt make Cousins. Some of the things Cousins has done in Washington, isnt a plug and play type thing. Yeah he has been in a good system but he kills that system and has done it the past two years.
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 19819
Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bonanza23 wrote:
NudeTayne wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:


With Cousins, IMO he's not an elite QB, he's a product of an offense that had a bunch of weapons and who had his best year overall (not just in yards) in 2015 when he had Kyle Shannahan and Sean McVey as his position coach and OC....


A bunch of weapons?

In '15 his leading two rushers were Morris at 750 yards and Jones at 490. A mediocre rushing attack. He also only had one receivers play all 16games and that was Pierre Garcon and he had a decent season.

Look at '16, rushing attack was similar buy maybe worse, with Kelly at 704yards and Jones at 460. He had two receivers play in all 16games in Garcon and Jackson and those guys werent making him look better, pretty sure he was one of the top QBs in yards through the airs. Its not like he was throwing shorts passes and the WRs were just making crazy plays for him.

No way would I say the weapons for the Redskins made Cousins look better

Yeah he looked good in Shannys and McVeys schemes but thats the whole point. You want players to look good in your scheme. It makes everything work! You are a moron if you take a QB who excels in say the WCO system and try and make him be a QB in a Vertical passing attack. I bet you Manning would of been an awful QB if you put hi in a Option type offense. There is a reason BB and Brady are so good, the system is a perfect marriage for them.


Then we must agree to disagree....with Garcon and Jackson along with Jordan Reed and Jameson Crowder (who had a solid rookie season and even better second season), and Vernon Davis who had a solid year also in 2016.....unless your saying cousins would put up the same numbers with the Wr's and TE's we had last year?
And thank you for helping my point of view...yes cousins was one of the leauge leaders in yards through the air...but do you think he would be able to do that if Jackson was running over the top of CB's and Jordan Reed wasnt blowing by Safties in the seam? I assure you Garry Barnage wasn't beating pro bowl safties up the seam....

Now this next question, lets look at it within reason....not I'm not saying you put Peyton Manning in the RGIII 2014 read option...or course he would fail. I've seen Brady run a West coast system, a Deep Ball system and a passing game built off TE's...Bill B is a Defensive coach...and his offense coordinators have changed significantly over the years, and so has his offensive system yet Brady keeps plugging along and winning championships....
Are you saying Kirk Cousins will perform at the same level when he does not have the weapons he has had access to, and without two of the Brightest Offensive minds in the game drawing up a perfect passing game based off his strengths, not to mention one of the best Oline coaches in the NFL drawing up protection schemes for him.
I think if you put Alex Smith or Andy Dalton on that skins team with Shanny and McVey, they put up the same numbers as cousins....
Put Cousins in the Rams offense last year, he dosent put up NEAR the numbers he does IMO...you put Brady on that same Rams team...they make the playoffs IMO.

Humbly Submitted.


I can go into this in more detail later while I'm at my computer. I'm not saying he made that offense but I'm not saying he is a product of the weapons he has. He had a solid cast of weapons around him. To me if you sucked wih that kind of talent around you, than you are a bad QB. But I also believe if you put an avg QB in that position, they still won't put up the numbers like Cousins did. When I think of surrounding talent making a QB better I'm looking at the 07 browns and what that talent did for Anderson, Brad Johnson with the Bucks. Brock with the Broncos, and etc


Gonna put my status as everyone's favorite poster in jeopardy by puttingb this out there: if we don't believe we have our QBOTF on our roster and we can get Cousins reasonably affordably (like two seconds), we should trade for Cousins. My other account (buno67) makes some solid points.

At this point, a narrative has been established that Cousins is overrated. I see a consistent edge-of-elite starter better than the likes of Flacco, Eli etc. He will get 5/140 in free agency, which will be surpassed again soon as the cap continues to climb. I like Kessler and Kizer, but if Hue/Sashi decide these guys aren't going to be anything special, I trade for Cousins. I see Drew Brees potential. The system QB statement is not based in reality IMO. This is the NFL; Alex Smith didn't turn into a stat monster just because he went to a better (and stable-P -ben development) system. Here just became more efficient. Cousins is accurate, confident and a leader. He is 28, healthy and happy to keep grinding and improving--get the sense that he wants to be great.

That punchable face tho.


You're no longer my favorite poster. That's by default going to NudeTayne.

And I think he's kind of hot. You guys would probably consider my face punchable too. Razz


Every face is deserving of punching at some time in it's life.

Cousins just has that look where everytime you look at him you think, "That some time is now".

I've never met you, but you own a sous vide so it's not a stretch to think you have that look too.

Cousins looks like he cooks everything sous vide.
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Bonanza23


Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 11470
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Bonanza23 wrote:
NudeTayne wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DaWg_LB. wrote:


With Cousins, IMO he's not an elite QB, he's a product of an offense that had a bunch of weapons and who had his best year overall (not just in yards) in 2015 when he had Kyle Shannahan and Sean McVey as his position coach and OC....


A bunch of weapons?

In '15 his leading two rushers were Morris at 750 yards and Jones at 490. A mediocre rushing attack. He also only had one receivers play all 16games and that was Pierre Garcon and he had a decent season.

Look at '16, rushing attack was similar buy maybe worse, with Kelly at 704yards and Jones at 460. He had two receivers play in all 16games in Garcon and Jackson and those guys werent making him look better, pretty sure he was one of the top QBs in yards through the airs. Its not like he was throwing shorts passes and the WRs were just making crazy plays for him.

No way would I say the weapons for the Redskins made Cousins look better

Yeah he looked good in Shannys and McVeys schemes but thats the whole point. You want players to look good in your scheme. It makes everything work! You are a moron if you take a QB who excels in say the WCO system and try and make him be a QB in a Vertical passing attack. I bet you Manning would of been an awful QB if you put hi in a Option type offense. There is a reason BB and Brady are so good, the system is a perfect marriage for them.


Then we must agree to disagree....with Garcon and Jackson along with Jordan Reed and Jameson Crowder (who had a solid rookie season and even better second season), and Vernon Davis who had a solid year also in 2016.....unless your saying cousins would put up the same numbers with the Wr's and TE's we had last year?
And thank you for helping my point of view...yes cousins was one of the leauge leaders in yards through the air...but do you think he would be able to do that if Jackson was running over the top of CB's and Jordan Reed wasnt blowing by Safties in the seam? I assure you Garry Barnage wasn't beating pro bowl safties up the seam....

Now this next question, lets look at it within reason....not I'm not saying you put Peyton Manning in the RGIII 2014 read option...or course he would fail. I've seen Brady run a West coast system, a Deep Ball system and a passing game built off TE's...Bill B is a Defensive coach...and his offense coordinators have changed significantly over the years, and so has his offensive system yet Brady keeps plugging along and winning championships....
Are you saying Kirk Cousins will perform at the same level when he does not have the weapons he has had access to, and without two of the Brightest Offensive minds in the game drawing up a perfect passing game based off his strengths, not to mention one of the best Oline coaches in the NFL drawing up protection schemes for him.
I think if you put Alex Smith or Andy Dalton on that skins team with Shanny and McVey, they put up the same numbers as cousins....
Put Cousins in the Rams offense last year, he dosent put up NEAR the numbers he does IMO...you put Brady on that same Rams team...they make the playoffs IMO.

Humbly Submitted.


I can go into this in more detail later while I'm at my computer. I'm not saying he made that offense but I'm not saying he is a product of the weapons he has. He had a solid cast of weapons around him. To me if you sucked wih that kind of talent around you, than you are a bad QB. But I also believe if you put an avg QB in that position, they still won't put up the numbers like Cousins did. When I think of surrounding talent making a QB better I'm looking at the 07 browns and what that talent did for Anderson, Brad Johnson with the Bucks. Brock with the Broncos, and etc


Gonna put my status as everyone's favorite poster in jeopardy by puttingb this out there: if we don't believe we have our QBOTF on our roster and we can get Cousins reasonably affordably (like two seconds), we should trade for Cousins. My other account (buno67) makes some solid points.

At this point, a narrative has been established that Cousins is overrated. I see a consistent edge-of-elite starter better than the likes of Flacco, Eli etc. He will get 5/140 in free agency, which will be surpassed again soon as the cap continues to climb. I like Kessler and Kizer, but if Hue/Sashi decide these guys aren't going to be anything special, I trade for Cousins. I see Drew Brees potential. The system QB statement is not based in reality IMO. This is the NFL; Alex Smith didn't turn into a stat monster just because he went to a better (and stable-P -ben development) system. Here just became more efficient. Cousins is accurate, confident and a leader. He is 28, healthy and happy to keep grinding and improving--get the sense that he wants to be great.

That punchable face tho.


You're no longer my favorite poster. That's by default going to NudeTayne.

And I think he's kind of hot. You guys would probably consider my face punchable too. Razz


Every face is deserving of punching at some time in it's life.

Cousins just has that look where everytime you look at him you think, "That some time is now".

I've never met you, but you own a sous vide so it's not a stretch to think you have that look too.

Cousins looks like he cooks everything sous vide.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

NudeTayne is no longer my favorite poster. I bestow that honor (honour for you other people) to you.

Come on people this forums on its last legs, lets quote tree the hades out of it!
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