You are currently viewing the old forums. We have upgraded to a new NFL Forum.
This old forum is being left as a read-only archive.
Please update your bookmarks to our new forum at forums.footballsfuture.com.


 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Top 10 Edge Rushers going into '17
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> NFL Comparisons
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 22849
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:


I mean, I could have included Von Miller in that as well, who had 14 sacks on a high snap count. I didn't need to though, because you can try to duck the fact that he only got 4 high quality sacks all you want... it's just not impressive at all compared to his peers.

And one year in Vernon's career of double digit sack production doesn't really prove anything about his prowess at getting sacks. Hell, Lorenzo Alexander just got 12.5 sacks. Erik Walden just got 11. I'm not saying Vernon isn't a much better player than these guys. Just saying that pointing to one year of high sack production isn't a good argument to make when he has never gotten double digit sacks in any other year of his career.


Unless you can prove throughout Vernons Career that his sacks have not been "high quality" then you're point doesn't really hold. If you're gonna dismiss that he's had one double digit sack season once well sure as hell should dismiss looking at one year of "lack of quality sacks".

You just pointed to guys above having more sacks who are not as good as Vernon. You have to bring sacks, hits, hurries/pressures all together.
_________________


Be Humble. Sit Down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 22849
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Von is a better pass rusher than Mack. First step is better, speed to power, bend around the edge. Mack is better with his hands but Von is a more effective rusher. Mack is head and shoulders better against the run though.

And for the life of me, please stop with the PFF grades. They're not to be trusted with
_________________


Be Humble. Sit Down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MrOaktown_56


Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 8099
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
Von is a better pass rusher than Mack. First step is better, speed to power, bend around the edge. Mack is better with his hands but Von is a more effective rusher. Mack is head and shoulders better against the run though.

And for the life of me, please stop with the PFF grades. They're not to be trusted with


Pressures aren't that subjective. I've done my own counts and they're not that far off. I don't ever use PFF's grades. Only their stats, which are hard to chart for every player.

Von doesn't have better speed to power than Mack. That's a joke. You would say that if you've watched them. Houston and Mack are the best speed to power edge guys in the NFL. Von is more twitchy and bendy than both I agree.

Also, if von is clearly a better pass rusher, shouldn't he have more pressures, not less? I mean if you say they're comparable with different playstyles, that's also acceptable in terms of pass rushing.
_________________
Danand wrote:
Carr is 22-25,no playoff games, I'd take Flacco over him.To me it seems like Flacco is just where he belongs. Behind the Brady, Roethlisberger,Rivers,Rodgers,Wilson and ahead of Carr,Tannehill,Cousins,Palmer,Dalton,Luck
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr Raider


Joined: 25 Jun 2014
Posts: 1869
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
Von is a better pass rusher than Mack. First step is better, speed to power, bend around the edge. Mack is better with his hands but Von is a more effective rusher. Mack is head and shoulders better against the run though.

And for the life of me, please stop with the PFF grades. They're not to be trusted with


Than why does Mack have better production in sakcs and pressures over the past two seasons? Nobody in the NFL has more sakcs than Mack over the past two seasons. I believe he has the most pressures too. And that's while playing with literally two other pro bowl players (and Nelson shouldn't have been) in that time span. Meanwhile Von plays with perhaps the best secondary in the NFL and other high caliber pass rushers applying pressure as well. If it was so clear as to Von being the better pass rusher witt that big of a gap in supporting cast you would think Miller would easily be more productive.

Von has a better first step, and he's got better bend. But Mack has A LOT more power, the way he ragdolls offensive linemen with his power is a sight to see and isn't less valuable than Von's pure speed. Not when it leads to better results. And I couldn't disagree more with Von having better speed to power either. That's Mack's bread and butter. Mack also has a lethal push and pull. A nasty rip move. And a great spin I'd like to see him unleash more. Von has advantages in certain areas and aspects of pass rushing, but Mack has just as many. Von the more twitchy, fast rusher, Mack the more powerful absurd strength rushing..not that Von foesnt have power or Mack doesn't have speed, they obviously do. But a different style doesn't mean a better overall pass rusher. I think you just prefer the bend and first step of Miller. Which is fine. But that doesn't mean he's a better pass rusher.
_________________

The poster formally known as LivingLegendWFC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Breesus mode


Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 7245
Location: Tucson Arizona
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lack of Cameron Jordan makes me sad.
_________________
catcheryea wrote:
DalCowboyzRule wrote:
you missed a crying jordan in the middle of your sig man.
you missed a bowl game at the end of your season
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tatupu_64


Moderator
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 26321
Location: Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Breesus mode wrote:
The lack of Cameron Jordan makes me sad.
Do you really think it is accurate to call Cameron Jordan an edge rusher?
_________________
<Rammy

#1 ET Supporter
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 22849
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Von is a better pass rusher than Mack. First step is better, speed to power, bend around the edge. Mack is better with his hands but Von is a more effective rusher. Mack is head and shoulders better against the run though.

And for the life of me, please stop with the PFF grades. They're not to be trusted with


Pressures aren't that subjective. I've done my own counts and they're not that far off. I don't ever use PFF's grades. Only their stats, which are hard to chart for every player.

Von doesn't have better speed to power than Mack. That's a joke. You would say that if you've watched them. Houston and Mack are the best speed to power edge guys in the NFL. Von is more twitchy and bendy than both I agree.

Also, if von is clearly a better pass rusher, shouldn't he have more pressures, not less? I mean if you say they're comparable with different playstyles, that's also acceptable in terms of pass rushing.


Unless you're able to clearly and objectively distinguish between what is a pressure and what isn't, it's subjective. Have you watched each pass rush snap of the two to be able to do that?

Secondly, More power=/=more speed to power. Mack is obviously naturally stronger than Von but Von does a better job of converting the speed in his rush to power in my opinion.

Well Mack had more pressures because he had more pass rush snaps. Von gets used in coverage more than Mack. Von had 435 pass rush snaps while Mack hand over 500. That's why. On a per snap basis Von was better
_________________


Be Humble. Sit Down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Breesus mode


Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 7245
Location: Tucson Arizona
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
Breesus mode wrote:
The lack of Cameron Jordan makes me sad.
Do you really think it is accurate to call Cameron Jordan an edge rusher?

Yes, I do
_________________
catcheryea wrote:
DalCowboyzRule wrote:
you missed a crying jordan in the middle of your sig man.
you missed a bowl game at the end of your season
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
MrOaktown_56


Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 8099
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Von is a better pass rusher than Mack. First step is better, speed to power, bend around the edge. Mack is better with his hands but Von is a more effective rusher. Mack is head and shoulders better against the run though.

And for the life of me, please stop with the PFF grades. They're not to be trusted with


Pressures aren't that subjective. I've done my own counts and they're not that far off. I don't ever use PFF's grades. Only their stats, which are hard to chart for every player.

Von doesn't have better speed to power than Mack. That's a joke. You would say that if you've watched them. Houston and Mack are the best speed to power edge guys in the NFL. Von is more twitchy and bendy than both I agree.

Also, if von is clearly a better pass rusher, shouldn't he have more pressures, not less? I mean if you say they're comparable with different playstyles, that's also acceptable in terms of pass rushing.


Unless you're able to clearly and objectively distinguish between what is a pressure and what isn't, it's subjective. Have you watched each pass rush snap of the two to be able to do that?

Secondly, More power=/=more speed to power. Mack is obviously naturally stronger than Von but Von does a better job of converting the speed in his rush to power in my opinion.

Well Mack had more pressures because he had more pass rush snaps. Von gets used in coverage more than Mack. Von had 435 pass rush snaps while Mack hand over 500. That's why. On a per snap basis Von was better


I mean, if you have 100 more rush snaps and about 20 more pressures, that means a pressure every 5 rushes which is very good. And I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what constitutes a pressure. We all watch a lot of football.

But it's a fair argument. My greater point is that if you put the run defense and rush ability together, IMO Mack edges him out. Run defending is far more important than coverage ability because you have to defend the run, while covering is more of a 3rd down thing and you can always rush instead of cover.

But again to each their own.

Ask Jakuvious about speed to power. He's as objective as it gets concerning edge rushers and he agrees with me on this one. Mack definitely has more speed to power than miller. Him and Houston both do. Mack is the best bull rusher off the edge mainly because of his ability to convert burst into raw power.
_________________
Danand wrote:
Carr is 22-25,no playoff games, I'd take Flacco over him.To me it seems like Flacco is just where he belongs. Behind the Brady, Roethlisberger,Rivers,Rodgers,Wilson and ahead of Carr,Tannehill,Cousins,Palmer,Dalton,Luck
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SilverNBlackFan


Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Posts: 7946
Location: R.I.P Al Davis 1929-2011
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You give Khalil Mack - Two top 5 corners, A borderline top 10 guy in Roby, Ward, Stewart and one of the goat DCs in Wade Phillips, i guarantee you Mack's pass rush #s 's rise.

Mack is the only player on the Raiders defense offenses really have to gameplan around and yet he still puts up pass rushing #s on par with Miller, who has several defensive teammates who are upper tier at their respective positions.

I don't believe Mack is a better pure pass rusher then Von but the production is pretty damn similar over the last two years in a far worse situation. And Mack is clearly a better run defender. I'll take him.
_________________
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
I'm beside myself.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BroncoBruin


Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 13063
Location: La Mesa, CA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:
BroncoBruin wrote:
Mr Raider wrote:
BroncoBruin wrote:
I'll play. I'd say Von is the clear cut better pass rusher than Mack and is also the clear cut best pass rusher off the edge in the league, and that's more valuable to me than Mack's superior run D. Von has also consistently made plays against run for the past five years, but people still think of 230 pound rookie Von when run defense is brought up. He's not Mack vs. the run but he's still better than the vast majority of edge rushers. Small cherry on top is Miller's constantly improving coverage ability. But yeah, give me the more talented rusher.


The gap between Mack and Von's run defense is larger than the gap between their pass rushing ability. Talk about being more valuable but mention his coverage ability? How often is he acually used in coverage? You can say pass rushing is more important but run defense is half the game for a DE/LB and while Miller has improved I agree he's still clearly behind Mack. I could even argue Mack as the better pass rusher over the past two seasons, but not playing with 3 other great to very solid pass rushers and guys like Wolfe and Jackson, or an elite secondary leads to a little less sack producion, and explains the better hurry numbers by Mack. Its a lot easier to rack up sacks when the other guys pressuring the QB do their job and a defensive.backfield that locks up WRs and TEs leaving the QB holding the ball. Look at what Mack has to work with and what Von has around him and that explains a lot of the slightly higher sack numbers last year. To me Khalil is the best edge player in the business with Von not far behind but Mack doing what he does in the pass rush with little around him and the clear advantage in run defense puts him over Miller.. Though really you'd gladly take either guy and feel amazing about it as a GM/fan.

The gap difference between pass rush and run D is smaller than you're presenting and pretty insignificant when you consider pass rushing is easily the more valuable skill for an edge player in the modern game. Saying run defense represents half the value for an edge player is just not true at all, it is closer to 60-40 favoring pass rushing. And yeah you could make an argument for Mack over Miller as a pass rusher, just not a good one. Von opens up opportunities for the guys around him with his presence, not vice versa. Shane Ray and Derek Wolfe are nice pass rushers but you're not going to ever prioritize them over Von if you're an offensive coordinator, if anything a lot of their success is also a testament to Von's greatness. Ray might very well end up getting a big second contract on the back of collecting clean up sacks from Von forcing QBs to his left. I mentioned Von's coverage ability not as any kind of checkmate, but a cherry on top, its shows he's a complete player. I think he already wins the argument without including coverage.


You don't think there's a gap at all in terms of run defense? Ok, clearly Mack's superior power and ability to anchor means nothing in the run game.

And cmon man, it's not a good argument that Mack had 17 more pressures than Miller last year? And the same amount the year before?

Why the need for straw man arguments? Read my posts again, I didn't say there "wasn't a gap at all" and pretty plainly said Mack was a superior run defender, what I did say was the gap was much smaller than is being presented and is essentially insignificant as they're both very good and do their job as well as a team needs from a strong side edge vs. the run. I also never said anything about Mack's attributes meaning nothing in the running game, not sure where that comes from.

Volume numbers? Pressure percentage would be the figure to look at here if you want to make a purely statistical argument. I'm not making a purely statistical argument when I say Von can get to the QB faster than any edge rusher in the league.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BroncoBruin


Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 13063
Location: La Mesa, CA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I do believe that first step and bend for an edge rusher are objectively more valuable than Mack's best attributes and that does factor into my argument for Von being the better pass rusher.

To summarize my overall position, even if the difference between Mack and Miller as run defenders is greater than the difference between them as pass rushers, at that position pass rush ability is more important. Plus Von can cover. At best I think you can make the argument that they're equals, but I can't see any argument for Mack being a better player.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BroncoBruin


Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 13063
Location: La Mesa, CA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure how the pass rush snaps compare in 2016, but just looking at 2015 if you add Von's three postseason games you get 538 rush snaps to Mack's 534 regular season rush snaps. Essentially equal, right? Von had 23 more pressures on 4 more opportunities.

Again, not sure how the numbers compare with opportunities being equal in 2016, but you can see where simply using volume number of pressures here does not work as intended.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BroncoBruin


Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 13063
Location: La Mesa, CA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Raider wrote:
^^ What he said. All of it. I don't blame a Bronco fan having their guys back or rather have Von. But Mack, imo, is the better overall player, and it's crazy to think his run defense isn't elite or that Mack isn't on Miller's level as a pass rusher..

Kind of lame to assume I'm just "having my guy's back" when I never even thought of discrediting yours or anyone else's pro-Mack argument for being a Raiders fan. We all watch a lot of football.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MrOaktown_56


Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 8099
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncoBruin wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
BroncoBruin wrote:
Mr Raider wrote:
BroncoBruin wrote:
I'll play. I'd say Von is the clear cut better pass rusher than Mack and is also the clear cut best pass rusher off the edge in the league, and that's more valuable to me than Mack's superior run D. Von has also consistently made plays against run for the past five years, but people still think of 230 pound rookie Von when run defense is brought up. He's not Mack vs. the run but he's still better than the vast majority of edge rushers. Small cherry on top is Miller's constantly improving coverage ability. But yeah, give me the more talented rusher.


The gap between Mack and Von's run defense is larger than the gap between their pass rushing ability. Talk about being more valuable but mention his coverage ability? How often is he acually used in coverage? You can say pass rushing is more important but run defense is half the game for a DE/LB and while Miller has improved I agree he's still clearly behind Mack. I could even argue Mack as the better pass rusher over the past two seasons, but not playing with 3 other great to very solid pass rushers and guys like Wolfe and Jackson, or an elite secondary leads to a little less sack producion, and explains the better hurry numbers by Mack. Its a lot easier to rack up sacks when the other guys pressuring the QB do their job and a defensive.backfield that locks up WRs and TEs leaving the QB holding the ball. Look at what Mack has to work with and what Von has around him and that explains a lot of the slightly higher sack numbers last year. To me Khalil is the best edge player in the business with Von not far behind but Mack doing what he does in the pass rush with little around him and the clear advantage in run defense puts him over Miller.. Though really you'd gladly take either guy and feel amazing about it as a GM/fan.

The gap difference between pass rush and run D is smaller than you're presenting and pretty insignificant when you consider pass rushing is easily the more valuable skill for an edge player in the modern game. Saying run defense represents half the value for an edge player is just not true at all, it is closer to 60-40 favoring pass rushing. And yeah you could make an argument for Mack over Miller as a pass rusher, just not a good one. Von opens up opportunities for the guys around him with his presence, not vice versa. Shane Ray and Derek Wolfe are nice pass rushers but you're not going to ever prioritize them over Von if you're an offensive coordinator, if anything a lot of their success is also a testament to Von's greatness. Ray might very well end up getting a big second contract on the back of collecting clean up sacks from Von forcing QBs to his left. I mentioned Von's coverage ability not as any kind of checkmate, but a cherry on top, its shows he's a complete player. I think he already wins the argument without including coverage.


You don't think there's a gap at all in terms of run defense? Ok, clearly Mack's superior power and ability to anchor means nothing in the run game.

And cmon man, it's not a good argument that Mack had 17 more pressures than Miller last year? And the same amount the year before?

Why the need for straw man arguments? Read my posts again, I didn't say there "wasn't a gap at all" and pretty plainly said Mack was a superior run defender, what I did say was the gap was much smaller than is being presented and is essentially insignificant as they're both very good and do their job as well as a team needs from a strong side edge vs. the run. I also never said anything about Mack's attributes meaning nothing in the running game, not sure where that comes from.

Volume numbers? Pressure percentage would be the figure to look at here if you want to make a purely statistical argument. I'm not making a purely statistical argument when I say Von can get to the QB faster than any edge rusher in the league.


You called the gap between them insignificant. I promise it's not. If you want me to dig up examples, I can, but there's a gap there that makes a difference even as far as team run defense is concerned. Being able to play the run more effectively leads to longer 3rd downs and less pressure on the secondary as well.

I agree that in terms of speed, Von can get there faster than anyone because he's so damn fast, but there's more to being a good rusher than having excellent get off and bend. Its why Houston almost broke strahans record and I don't think anyone would dispute he's right there as well.
_________________
Danand wrote:
Carr is 22-25,no playoff games, I'd take Flacco over him.To me it seems like Flacco is just where he belongs. Behind the Brady, Roethlisberger,Rivers,Rodgers,Wilson and ahead of Carr,Tannehill,Cousins,Palmer,Dalton,Luck
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> NFL Comparisons All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 5 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group