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Epyon


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 448
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with Trub potentially starting the season is it's not a move you can really walk back from. It's one thing to say "oh the rookie isn't ready yet"..... It's another to say "we're starting the rookie, and this guy we're giving $17million to wasn't good enough to start".... because that 2nd statement will get a GM fired fast, especially when Trubisky would be sure to have some rookie growing pains (as basically every rookie QB ever has).

The smart play is Glennon plays this season while Trubisky learns, and right at the 7th-8th loss (ie when playoff hopes officially die), you bench Glennon for Trubisky and embrace the future.
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AZBearsFan


Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 13184
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Wentz came from a Pro Style offense where he played almost 0 NFL talent so while I am sure it helped he had routinely thrown the ball against DBs who are selling cars now.

Goff played with no weapons and behind a really bad OL. Added to the those facts are that Goff has about as much athletic ability as a statue and I do not think the only reason he struggled was the system he came from.



If Trubisky shows he can play then you let him play. My point is that I do not see Glennon playing well enough for them to wait 1 snap longer than when Turbisky is ready.


I guess where you're losing me is where can Trubisky show you that he can play? Camp? Pre-season games?

Even if he is ready mentally and physically, I still see no reason to throw him out there week 1. At least give the kid a month to sit back and watch/study/learn the game without even a slight thought of having to step onto the field entering his mind.

Counterpoint - Trubisky isn't worried about going on the field. He's chomping at the bit to get out there. I'm sure it's ALL he's thinking about. Why else would he be putting in 14 hour days to get ready? We drafted him to play him, not to be the side piece everyone longs for down the road. I don't care if we are playing against the 85 Bears or 00 Ravens defenses every week, we can't be scared to play him because we have a quality opponent that week. He's gonna play against pro bowl caliber defenders every damn week. He's not a mint condition collectible that loses value when you take the bubble wrap off. He's a football player. He's gonna take lumps whenever it is that we turn him loose. The only reason to keep him on the sideline IMO is if there is a fundamental issue that needs to be addressed. You learn to play in the NFL by playing in the NFL. Practice is for drills and preseason is for timing, but live game action is where he's going to learn most.

G08 it surprises me you're so against him seeing the field - my recollection was that you were all in favor of how Derek Carr was handled by Oakland and he didn't get the kid gloves treatment at all.
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 16527
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think at some point this season Trubisky will show that he is ready to be tested in games.

I don't think Mike Glennon's is going to cause you one second of pause in benching him.

I would be upset if his first ever start was week 1 2018 unless Glennon is playing at a Pro Bowl level.
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John Fox
3-13 this season, 9-23 overall, 4-12 at home
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6913
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
G08 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Wentz came from a Pro Style offense where he played almost 0 NFL talent so while I am sure it helped he had routinely thrown the ball against DBs who are selling cars now.

Goff played with no weapons and behind a really bad OL. Added to the those facts are that Goff has about as much athletic ability as a statue and I do not think the only reason he struggled was the system he came from.



If Trubisky shows he can play then you let him play. My point is that I do not see Glennon playing well enough for them to wait 1 snap longer than when Turbisky is ready.


I guess where you're losing me is where can Trubisky show you that he can play? Camp? Pre-season games?

Even if he is ready mentally and physically, I still see no reason to throw him out there week 1. At least give the kid a month to sit back and watch/study/learn the game without even a slight thought of having to step onto the field entering his mind.

Counterpoint - Trubisky isn't worried about going on the field. He's chomping at the bit to get out there. I'm sure it's ALL he's thinking about. Why else would he be putting in 14 hour days to get ready? We drafted him to play him, not to be the side piece everyone longs for down the road. I don't care if we are playing against the 85 Bears or 00 Ravens defenses every week, we can't be scared to play him because we have a quality opponent that week. He's gonna play against pro bowl caliber defenders every damn week. He's not a mint condition collectible that loses value when you take the bubble wrap off. He's a football player. He's gonna take lumps whenever it is that we turn him loose. The only reason to keep him on the sideline IMO is if there is a fundamental issue that needs to be addressed. You learn to play in the NFL by playing in the NFL. Practice is for drills and preseason is for timing, but live game action is where he's going to learn most.

G08 it surprises me you're so against him seeing the field - my recollection was that you were all in favor of how Derek Carr was handled by Oakland and he didn't get the kid gloves treatment at all.


It's not so much that I'm against him seeing the field, I'm just strongly of the opinion that he isn't ready (he isn't).

This is the #2 overall pick, first QB taken in the draft, by a franchise that does not know how to draft/acquire/develop the most important position in all of sports.

If sitting him until after the bye week gives us a 0.000001% better chance of him becoming a star, I'm all for it.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 16527
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if sitting him till the bye week slows his development?

I think we are going to hear that he is not as far away as we all thought, largely because of his natural tools.

If they tell us Mike Glennon is a solid starting NFL QB then if Trubisky is clearly better than him, then the math to me says he can start.


Rookie QBs develop bad habits when they are not protected. I don't think that it will be an issue for the Bears.
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John Fox
3-13 this season, 9-23 overall, 4-12 at home
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6913
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
What if sitting him till the bye week slows his development?

I think we are going to hear that he is not as far away as we all thought, largely because of his natural tools.

If they tell us Mike Glennon is a solid starting NFL QB then if Trubisky is clearly better than him, then the math to me says he can start.


Rookie QBs develop bad habits when they are not protected. I don't think that it will be an issue for the Bears.


Theoretically I suppose it could slow his development, but I'll maintain that he's simply not ready right now:

Footwork needs to be overhauled
Needs to learn a pro system
Has to learn to tie footwork to his reads in this system
Needs to study NFL defenses (Stanford pantsed him twice in his bowl game) and learn how to adjust pre-snap to post-snap while still making all his proper reads

It's just too much right now, IMO. Curious to see how he looks in camp and in the pre-season and then we can re-assess.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 16527
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is only so much practice can do to teach you things.

It has to be done in games for it to stick and matter. You can never recreate a game like situation in practice.

At some point this season he needs to test all the learning he has done in live games.
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John Fox
3-13 this season, 9-23 overall, 4-12 at home
Pathetic
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6913
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
There is only so much practice can do to teach you things.

It has to be done in games for it to stick and matter. You can never recreate a game like situation in practice.

At some point this season he needs to test all the learning he has done in live games.


I disagree wholeheartedly there, Windy. Look at Aaron Rodgers, they tore him down and completely rebuilt him (mechanically) and he's one of the best QBs in the history of the game.

Games will give him the best experience, true, but not when he is still working to master the fundamentals of the NFL game.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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Superman(DH23)


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 19907
Location: Abdi on the sick sig
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point here for me is that you don't hold him back just to hold him back. Glennon will be given every chance to win the job. But if Trubisky takes it from him, that's a good thing, and you don't bench him just for the sake of benching him and "protecting" him.
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6913
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
The point here for me is that you don't hold him back just to hold him back. Glennon will be given every chance to win the job. But if Trubisky takes it from him, that's a good thing, and you don't bench him just for the sake of benching him and "protecting" him.


Of course, I mean if the kid clearly shows a firm grasp of the system, making his proper reads, has pristine footwork, and is adept and identifying coverages both pre-and-post-snap, then by all means open it up in camp. I just don't think that will be the case, unfortunately.

Glennon is a vested NFL veteran and he's struggling right now.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 16527
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
There is only so much practice can do to teach you things.

It has to be done in games for it to stick and matter. You can never recreate a game like situation in practice.

At some point this season he needs to test all the learning he has done in live games.


I disagree wholeheartedly there, Windy. Look at Aaron Rodgers, they tore him down and completely rebuilt him (mechanically) and he's one of the best QBs in the history of the game.

Games will give him the best experience, true, but not when he is still working to master the fundamentals of the NFL game.


Who knows if Rodgers wouldn't have been an MVP in his 2nd year instead of sitting?

Maybe the Packer wasted 2 years of prime Rodgers watching the ghost of Brett?


You cannot get done what you need to be done in practice alone. There is no way to simulate having to replicate good mechanics after a big hit, or how to make a play after a massive momentum swing, or how to change a play on the fly.
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John Fox
3-13 this season, 9-23 overall, 4-12 at home
Pathetic
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6913
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
G08 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
There is only so much practice can do to teach you things.

It has to be done in games for it to stick and matter. You can never recreate a game like situation in practice.

At some point this season he needs to test all the learning he has done in live games.


I disagree wholeheartedly there, Windy. Look at Aaron Rodgers, they tore him down and completely rebuilt him (mechanically) and he's one of the best QBs in the history of the game.

Games will give him the best experience, true, but not when he is still working to master the fundamentals of the NFL game.


Who knows if Rodgers wouldn't have been an MVP in his 2nd year instead of sitting?

Maybe the Packer wasted 2 years of prime Rodgers watching the ghost of Brett?


You cannot get done what you need to be done in practice alone. There is no way to simulate having to replicate good mechanics after a big hit, or how to make a play after a massive momentum swing, or how to change a play on the fly.


You can play the what if game all you want, I'm going off what happened, how the player was transformed, and how he's going to go down as one of the best ever.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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51to54


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
The point here for me is that you don't hold him back just to hold him back. Glennon will be given every chance to win the job. But if Trubisky takes it from him, that's a good thing, and you don't bench him just for the sake of benching him and "protecting" him.


Of course, I mean if the kid clearly shows a firm grasp of the system, making his proper reads, has pristine footwork, and is adept and identifying coverages both pre-and-post-snap, then by all means open it up in camp. I just don't think that will be the case, unfortunately.

Glennon is a vested NFL veteran and he's struggling right now.

Your standard basically just benched virtually every Bears' QB since the merger. Very Happy
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6913
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

51to54 wrote:
G08 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
The point here for me is that you don't hold him back just to hold him back. Glennon will be given every chance to win the job. But if Trubisky takes it from him, that's a good thing, and you don't bench him just for the sake of benching him and "protecting" him.


Of course, I mean if the kid clearly shows a firm grasp of the system, making his proper reads, has pristine footwork, and is adept and identifying coverages both pre-and-post-snap, then by all means open it up in camp. I just don't think that will be the case, unfortunately.

Glennon is a vested NFL veteran and he's struggling right now.

Your standard basically just benched virtually every Bears' QB since the merger. Very Happy


Exactly Laughing

This is why I am in zero rush to get this kid on the field. I want him to be 110% ready, and even then I might wait until it's 115% ready.

Week 11 works for me... gets him 7 games of experience, and he can use the bye week to study for the Lions.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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Bfan


Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 1568
Location: Illinois
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! Did you guys really just spend an entire page arguing whether the rookie QB with 13 starts in collage and coming from a non-pro-style offence should start day one or 7 games in? Training camp has not even started yet.
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