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2017 OTA'S AND TRAINING CAMP
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3182
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While Big Ben was more pro ready coming into the league than Lynch. He wasn't even close to tge passer he is today.

I'm sorry but Lynch can grow from a mental aspect much like big ben has. I don't see that as a reason not to play him. There will be growing pains. It might not be a great move short term but will serve this franchise well long term.

I think if Trevor starts his big play ability lacks so much. If he is average and the offense struggles the team will be divided once again. If lynch starts I think the potential for the plays he can make will keep the team unfractored.

I don't want another Talib Okung blow up.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3609
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think everyone pretty much recognizes Lynch is physically the more gifted QB. It would be crazy to argue otherwise. His ceiling is that much higher as a result.

The issue is that his floor is that much lower. It's in our best interests if both QB's develop, because unlike last year, after this season, we probably need to explore if we can get value from the loser of the QB battle in a trade. Not just because of our 2018 cap situation (which isn't cap hell, but actually less flexible than we had this past offseason), but also since after this season, we'd have to commit serious $ to Siemian, so it makes no sense to do that unless he's our starter (especially if Kelly can even be just a capable backup in 2018 - this year's likely a medical redshirt). I'm not talking Jimmy G-1st rounder return, even a Day 2 pick is a great haul, if we have our starter and backup guy still cheap and in-house for 2018.

It's important to understand that this is our slowest time of the year for actual news - there's way too much emphasis being put on OTA performance. It's basically flag football, remember no contact is allowed. Lynch showed his great physical tools, but he also showed his recognition/anticipation wasn't at Siemian's level. And without pressure/contact, there's literally zero idea if his pocket awareness, and ability to extend plays with his eyes up, have progressed.

We all want Lynch to take a step forward - but saying a guy can get better is miles away from saying it will happen for sure, let alone he's getting there now, which we'd also all want to see before handing him the starter's job. I say all the above as someone who still believes Lynch can be the guy (but also recognizing that 2016 was always a pipe dream) - it's just that OTA's don't give any concrete info if that time is coming up for Opening Week 2017, or it still needs more time.

From a purely future-thinking perspective, the ideal would be if Siemian showed enough progress to be a desirable target in offseason trade, but Lynch showed he was ready to take over full-time sometime in 2017. Now, that's purely future-talk - you put the best lineup to win now, I get that. But if Siemian is the starter Week 1, I have no problem if he's still our best guy behind center. He likely can't be just a redux of last year, though - he will have to show even more anticipation and placement in the red zone, because his arm doesn't allow to fit balls in with late reads, or late timing - that's one clear weakness he will always have (the NE red zone pick that turned that game completely around is a great example of this). If his play doesn't progress, then the likelihood of Lynch passing Siemian, even if it's not Week 1, well, I think we all know where Elway is committed to long-term - if it's literally a level playing field, then Elway's going to go with the higher ceiling. Siemian can clearly still keep the job, but he's got to be clearly better than Lynch. He was last year, but being the same version as 2016, with his red-zone weaknesses created by his physical limitations, that's not likely going to let him finish 2017 as the starter, even if he starts that way.

But if Siemian shows he's even quicker in reads and decision-making than last year, then this is a good problem to have - because it forces Lynch to show he's not just better than last year, but complete in his game, not just the flash-the-talent-but-also-the-problems version. Right now, even the most optimistic fan should recognize there's still a fair amount work to do with Lynch - and it's no lock it all comes together. We all hope it will all fall into place, but until it does, hard to count on it, let alone it all falling together for Lynch by Week 1.

At least we'll find out soon enough once real scrimmages with other D's and the preseason where both guys are at.
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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Location: Loveland, CO
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ11 wrote:
1043 the fan talking Siemian v Lynch every day for the next three months lol

How is that different from the last six months? Laughing
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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Location: Loveland, CO
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
While Big Ben was more pro ready coming into the league than Lynch. He wasn't even close to tge passer he is today.

I'm sorry but Lynch can grow from a mental aspect much like big ben has. I don't see that as a reason not to play him. There will be growing pains. It might not be a great move short term but will serve this franchise well long term.

I think if Trevor starts his big play ability lacks so much. If he is average and the offense struggles the team will be divided once again. If lynch starts I think the potential for the plays he can make will keep the team unfractored.

I don't want another Talib Okung blow up.

If either QB struggles there is the potential for a lockerroom fracture. It might actually be less so if Siemian is the starter as all reports are that is very well-liked by his teammates.

The Talib-Okung blowout was blown out of proportion, it was Mike Silver being Mike Silver. Those kinds of things, especially when there is a such large chasm between the performance of the two principle units, is not an uncommon occurrence in football lockerroooms it was just that time it leaked out.
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AAA is right, as he usually is.
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3182
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

double post
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Props to Deadpulse for the Sig:

Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."


Last edited by thebestever6 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

triple post
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Props to Deadpulse for the Sig:

Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."


Last edited by thebestever6 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3182
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

quadruple post
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Props to Deadpulse for the Sig:

Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."


Last edited by thebestever6 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3182
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
While Big Ben was more pro ready coming into the league than Lynch. He wasn't even close to tge passer he is today.

I'm sorry but Lynch can grow from a mental aspect much like big ben has. I don't see that as a reason not to play him. There will be growing pains. It might not be a great move short term but will serve this franchise well long term.

I think if Trevor starts his big play ability lacks so much. If he is average and the offense struggles the team will be divided once again. If lynch starts I think the potential for the plays he can make will keep the team unfractored.

I don't want another Talib Okung blow up.

If either QB struggles there is the potential for a lockerroom fracture. It might actually be less so if Siemian is the starter as all reports are that is very well-liked by his teammates.

The Talib-Okung blowout was blown out of proportion, it was Mike Silver being Mike Silver. Those kinds of things, especially when there is a such large chasm between the performance of the two principle units, is not an uncommon occurrence in football lockerroooms it was just that time it leaked out.




I get that it might be overblown but seeing a guy flash is way better than a guy just being a poor mans alex smith not being able to lead this offense to enough points.


I'm so sick of the leadership on this team,offensively. Manning was a figure head who was a leader because of his years amd wisdom which is fine. Siemian though I feel is a default leader bc of how bad the oline was, and the fact he didnt crash and burn replacing manning.

I will say this if Siemian wins the job Ill bet any amount of money Lynch is the guy at some point.

My personal belief and fear is siemian starts but either gets injured or is stagnant at some point in the season and Lynch comes in trying to take chances to keep the job. Hindering development having him become a bust.
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Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 6952
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:


I get that it might be overblown but seeing a guy flash is way better than a guy just being a poor mans alex smith not being able to lead this offense to enough points.


I will say this if Siemian wins the job Ill bet any amount of money Lynch is the guy at some point.

My personal belief and fear is siemian starts but either gets injured or is stagnant at some point in the season and Lynch comes in trying to take chances to keep the job. Hindering development having him become a bust.


I love your optimism regarding Lynch. I hope you're right. At this point though he hasn't shown me he's capable of playing QB at an NFL level.

Not to beat a dead horse, but unless he can play well consistently he can't win the job. It's not just the mental aspect he has to get down but he also has to overcome his accuracy issues. Those are big hurdles.

Like most on this forum I really have no dog in the fight. I'll be quite pleased if either guy steps up and separates himself. I just think Lynch has a much tougher road.

Regarding "splash" plays, they come in different varieties, not all assoctiated with great physical gifts. For Elway a splash play would be scrambling out of the pocket, then throw a 60 yard frozen rope to a WR in stride. For Montana it was catching the defense in a formation he liked, then hitting Rice on a 5 yard slant that he'd take to the house.

Anyway, we'll start to get a real good idea come August.
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jsthomp2007


Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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Location: USA
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really love the QB competition the Broncos are faced with. AND, I will throw Chad Kelly in the mix. But, I cannot wait to see which guy wins and become the QOTF...truly I want my kids to grow into an adult with the next QB at the helm.
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germ-x


Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We all know that Lynch needs to progress if he wants to be the starter, but I never read anything about Siemian needing to improve. If he plays at a similar rate as he did last year I would fully support letting the more talented Lynch start and take his lumps throughout the season.

Contrary to what many Broncos fans (not meaning members on here) think Trevor Siemian was not a good QB last year. He was actually pretty terrible and one of the bottom 5 starting QBs in the NFL. He had some flashes, for me personally I was very impressed with his toughness and his ability to create with defenders all over him. His ability to change his arm slot to complete passes is exceptional. He isn't as physically gifted, but his game reminds me a bit of Tony Romos. However, he was severely limited on longer developing plays. Poor decision making and inaccurate or late getting the ball downfield. All of those are correctable issues, but for him to win the job those are areas that need improved upon. Siemian's inability to do anything in the intermediate/deep passing zones severely limited Denver offensively last season.

Siemian is capable of improving in those areas, but again, if he doesn't I would fully support moving forward with Lynch and giving him a year (similar to Siemian's last season) thrown in the fire to see what he has.
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BroncoSojia


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 2873
Location: Mississippi
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chad Kelly has been appearing a lot on TV the past few days due to Mr Irrelevant week.

I have to say I'm pretty impressed with his demeanor and attitude. It seems like he's come along way from his early college years. I love his arm talent, and if he can just get healthy and get reps in training camp/preseason, he could be a dark horse for the job.

He's out of his cast and will starting throwing in a couple of weeks.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: Kelly, I suspect much like Siemian in his rookie year, we'll see Kelly get a redshirt year. He needs the time to develop on the mental/read side, like most rookie QB's, not just the time for his injury recovery.

The other reason I see Kelly getting redshirted for 2017 besides his own development curve - he can be stashed on PUP then IR, given his injury history. With both Demarcus Walker and Brendan Langley being kept on the 53-man roster with very limited contributions in Year 1, 2 rookie WR's as part of our 6-7 we keep, and a deep D-line rotation that's needed to make up for our lack of top-end talent after Wolfe, stashing both Butt (given we seem to be committed to keeping Virgil Green, Jeff Huermann and AJ Derby, rostering 4 TE's seems a luxury) and Kelly on IR likely allows us to address our depth needs elsewhere for this year. Kelly's a pick I see as giving us the flexibility to part ways with whoever loses the Lynch/Siemian battle in 2018.
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ I really have no qualms about either qb winning the job I just want a franchise qb. I think Trevor gets over praised for being a late round pick often compared to tom brady as a rookie. Which is kinda reverse of what people assume.


I also think paxton lynch is being way under sold because he lost out to a 7th rounder. And you fans see what Prescott did so they assumed hes already a bust.


I mean very interesting very unique situation we'll see how it plays out.
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The Helicopter


Joined: 31 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
We all know that Lynch needs to progress if he wants to be the starter, but I never read anything about Siemian needing to improve. If he plays at a similar rate as he did last year I would fully support letting the more talented Lynch start and take his lumps throughout the season.

Contrary to what many Broncos fans (not meaning members on here) think Trevor Siemian was not a good QB last year. He was actually pretty terrible and one of the bottom 5 starting QBs in the NFL. He had some flashes, for me personally I was very impressed with his toughness and his ability to create with defenders all over him. His ability to change his arm slot to complete passes is exceptional. He isn't as physically gifted, but his game reminds me a bit of Tony Romos. However, he was severely limited on longer developing plays. Poor decision making and inaccurate or late getting the ball downfield. All of those are correctable issues, but for him to win the job those are areas that need improved upon. Siemian's inability to do anything in the intermediate/deep passing zones severely limited Denver offensively last season.

Siemian is capable of improving in those areas, but again, if he doesn't I would fully support moving forward with Lynch and giving him a year (similar to Siemian's last season) thrown in the fire to see what he has.


I would agree...and add if neither QB improves beyond bottom 1/3 of NFL QB's then we're likely hosed for the foreseeable future.
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