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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 63655
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dcash4 wrote:
I am not saying that Willie Gay does not make this roster, but if the Vet/Locker Room is the only reason - i think we have some issues.


Yep....and that issue is, we dont enough talent to push him off the roster.

Sad, but true.
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Dcash4


Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 1486
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Dcash4 wrote:
I am not saying that Willie Gay does not make this roster, but if the Vet/Locker Room is the only reason - i think we have some issues.


Yep....and that issue is, we dont enough talent to push him off the roster.

Sad, but true.


I mean, I get it - we dont have a ton of talent, but neither does Willie Gay anymore. I dont think his talent level is very different from Sensabaugh and possibly even Sutton and Golson at this point in his career - and those guys have more to offer as far as flexibility, special teams, and potential.

Saying we dont have the talent to push Willie Gay off a roster assumes he still has talent. I just dont see how he fits on a roster if he isnt an obvious top 3 guy since he provides no special teams play and completely pigeon holes us into what we can do as far as scheme when he is on the field -- and I just dont think its obvious he is a better option than anyone.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 63655
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dcash4 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
Dcash4 wrote:
I am not saying that Willie Gay does not make this roster, but if the Vet/Locker Room is the only reason - i think we have some issues.


Yep....and that issue is, we dont enough talent to push him off the roster.

Sad, but true.


I mean, I get it - we dont have a ton of talent, but neither does Willie Gay anymore. I dont think his talent level is very different from Sensabaugh and possibly even Sutton and Golson at this point in his career - and those guys have more to offer as far as flexibility, special teams, and potential.

Saying we dont have the talent to push Willie Gay off a roster assumes he still has talent. I just dont see how he fits on a roster if he isnt an obvious top 3 guy since he provides no special teams play and completely pigeon holes us into what we can do as far as scheme when he is on the field -- and I just dont think its obvious he is a better option than anyone.


Here is what perplexes me.

Gay played decent in 2015 and was okay for parts in 2016. As the season went on he got worse. Ike Taylor used to have stretches where he was god awful, and Steelers fans regularly made excuses for him.

Thats not directed at you, Dcash, but my point is, everytime Gay has a stretch where he struggles, Steelers fans want him off the roster, whereas when it happened with Ike, Steeler fans just ignored it. Yes, Ike's highs were higher than Ikes highs, but his lows were just as bad and despite what some Ike apologists say, he had lows quite often....and Gay doesnt even have a consistent pass rush to aid him, or decent safeties in the middle, the way Ike had most of his career.

In terms of the others you named...

Senasbaugh? Ill take Gay.
Golson? All he has proven is he cant stay healthy. Hope he does, but you cant blindly assume he is more valuable than Gay.
Sutton? He will make it no matter what.

So lets say Burns, Sutton and Cockrell are ahead of Gay....you have a guy who cant stay healthy and has proven nothing (Golson), a guy who is on the same level and doesnt have the same respect of the staff and players (Sensabaugh) and a laughably raw 5th rounder who is a longshot to ever be more than a practice squad caliber players (Allen).

AT THIS POINT, assuming we keep 5 CBs on the active roster, I would go with...

Burns
Cockrell
Gay
Sutton (might be ahead of Gay on depth chart if he shows something)
Allen

I am still hoping they sign a vet, which IMO would only cause them to keep 6 CBs instead of 5.

Bottom line, Steeler fans may want to get rid of Gay at all costs, but realistically, the chances of it are slim because we simply dont have the talent to push him off the roster, and unlike fans, the Steelers arent just going to assume players like Golson and Allen are going to ever be better than Gay currently is.

Do I care if Gay is cut? Not really....but Im being realistic.
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oksteeler


Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 93
Location: broken arrow,ok
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: roster competition Reply with quote

The real roster battles are obviously for depth. Each position is for a player that won't/hopefully won't be a starter. So, why not take a different perspective.

Who will help us more in the playoffs and beyond?

Can Gay cover man to man vs. a spread offense like the Pats?
Is the talent/potential there in players like Golson, Allen and Sensabaugh to make them more valuable in a more forward thinking plan?

Who offers more explosive potential Grimble or Odom? David Johnson appears to be favored to make the team with these two young athletes competing.

Will Davis offer us enough to be the 3rd RB? Realistically, none of our third string RB's appear to offer much so this one might not matter. The only caveat would be if Davis can be a solid returner.

Perhaps we should adopt a playoff roster mindset. We're not Cleveland. Giving a couple of young bucks a chance to develop into something won't keep us from making the playoffs, but it could help us to win a little more when we get there.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The person who comes out of camp as the starter may not be the starter come October. Gay will be the starter coming out of camp unless he totally melts down and someone else is really really good.

I expect Gimble to be the starting TE by October
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Dcash4


Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 1486
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just dont understand who Willie Gay is on this roster if he is not the starting slot corner. He offers very little as a backup to the point of just being a guy who gets a helmet for no reason. That's why I continue to harp on three things - Special Teams, Flexibility, and potential.

If Gay is the long term (meaning for this season) slot corner, and wins that spot handily in camp - Thats fine. I have no problem with it (I mean, I do have problems with our scheme flexibility, but he is the best for the job so be it). But if there are similarly capable guys of holding down that slot fort - I'm almost guaranteeing they offer more from thier roster spot.

Sensabaugh is the one i look at the most. The Steelers dont sign free agents often that they do not have intended use for. Sensabaugh played 100 special teams snaps last year - Gay played 35 and only 3 of them came after week 7. If Gay is only a place holder to a Sutton/Golson and if Sensabaugh is just as capable of that job, isnt he more qualified as a backup? Can play outside, can play slot, can play man, can play zone, can contribute on special teams. If those two players are even similar in the slot as far as level of play, Sensabaugh has the leg up everywhere else, in my mind, as far as non-starter value to a full 53.

I dont have extremely high hopes for Golson or even Allen, but their youth and potential is also of value from a 4th/5th corner on the roster - specifically if they can play special teams. It all boils down to being hopefully of a perfect world, but if either or both of those guys show some potential, I would hate for them to lose a spot to a guy who may not even need to dress come mid year if Sutton or Sensabaugh were to take over the slot and ultimately probably doesnt make the team next year. Gays current skill set is not worth the potential lose of talent for the future.

I just dont value Gay on the roster if all he can do is play slot zone. He is not talented enough and is headed in the absolutely wrong direction as far as physical skills are concerned. If he remains on the team and is still limited to only what we seen the past 2 years we are no different scheme wise and that is my greatest concern. We may not need to be anymore than a zone team to make it to the playoffs, but to contend for a championship we do.

Again, I think its all decided in Camp and that no roster spot outside of Burns (and most likely Cockrell) is safe and completely up for grabs. The positions are going to go to the best options, but when you factor everything that guys need once you start going down deeper on the depth chart - Gay offers very little and, to me, that puts him well behind.
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JLambert58


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2031
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
The person who comes out of camp as the starter may not be the starter come October. Gay will be the starter coming out of camp unless he totally melts down and someone else is really really good.

I expect Gimble to be the starting TE by October


Bring out the Gimb. Laughing

jebrick, you're kidding, right? You think Grimble is going to start over Jesse James by October? C'mon now.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3564
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
The person who comes out of camp as the starter may not be the starter come October. Gay will be the starter coming out of camp unless he totally melts down and someone else is really really good.

I expect Gimble to be the starting TE by October


Not gonna happen unless there's injuries.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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JLambert58


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2031
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not surprisingly, Gay starts OTAs as the starting slot CB.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/05/william-gay-opens-otas-starting-slot-corner/
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One I had forgotten until I saw an article. Swing tackle between Hawkins and Hubbard. Hawkins has big upside. I think he is kept on the roster to hedge against Villy leaving or not signed in 2 years.
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JLambert58


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2031
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
One I had forgotten until I saw an article. Swing tackle between Hawkins and Hubbard. Hawkins has big upside. I think he is kept on the roster to hedge against Villy leaving or not signed in 2 years.


Since Hubb can play at least 4 maybe 5 OL positions, (6 if you count eligible OT/TE) I see him as utility OL/swing T. Hawkins, while talented, has got some work to do to become a trusted swing tackle. By the end of the season, maybe, but from week 1, I doubt it.

AV
Foster
Pouncey
DDC
Gilbert
Hubbard
Finney
Hawkins

Am I forgetting someone? How many do we usually keep 8 or 9?
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 63655
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a better chance Grimble is cut than him ever starting....outside of injuries.
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 5600
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JLambert58 wrote:
Not surprisingly, Gay starts OTAs as the starting slot CB.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/05/william-gay-opens-otas-starting-slot-corner/


Golson is the X factor, if he is healthy and does well, it could make the D much different . I know those ifs are always what teams face, but we are actually depending on him breaking out while Sutton learns. They better not cut Golson though
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JLambert58


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2031
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rivers wrote:
JLambert58 wrote:
Not surprisingly, Gay starts OTAs as the starting slot CB.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/05/william-gay-opens-otas-starting-slot-corner/


Golson is the X factor, if he is healthy and does well, it could make the D much different . I know those ifs are always what teams face, but we are actually depending on him breaking out while Sutton learns. They better not cut Golson though


If Golson can be the player the team thought he would be when they drafted him, that would allow Sutton to be used in more facets. Big IF but I hope he can do it.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6797
Location: In your head
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*DeMarcus Ayers will push fr an active spot. He can do it all and at a high level.

*Mike Hilton will push hard for a spot. He is a better outside CB than Slot CB. Steelers don't shy away from small CBs.

*Shaq Riddick & Adams will challenge Chickillo and Moats.

*Healthy Golson makes our CBs a strength rather than weakness.
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