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C Mc vs Joe Mixon, J Ross vs C Samuel, & O Howard vs. E
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jrl23


Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 150
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: C Mc vs Joe Mixon, J Ross vs C Samuel, & O Howard vs. E Reply with quote

*Non-football issues aside*

The latter seems to be greater than or equal to in talent and less expensive in terms of position drafted. In each case, I would go with the latter...thoughts?
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tyler735


Joined: 12 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll take McCaffrey,Ross, and Howard
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Ragnarok


Joined: 17 Oct 2016
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyler735 wrote:
I'll take McCaffrey,Ross, and Howard


I'd make all the same picks with little thought.

If I had to make a different choice, top change would be Samuel over Ross due to Ross' injury history and the fact that Samuel is clean and an awesome athlete.

Second, I'd choose Mixon over McCaffrey because he's more talented but infinitely more retarded. But that's a huge risk.

Howard over Engram isn't even close to being debatable and is kind of a bad third choice. Howard violates Engram.
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jrl23


Joined: 11 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragnarok wrote:
tyler735 wrote:
I'll take McCaffrey,Ross, and Howard


I'd make all the same picks with little thought.

If I had to make a different choice, top change would be Samuel over Ross due to Ross' injury history and the fact that Samuel is clean and an awesome athlete.

Second, I'd choose Mixon over McCaffrey because he's more talented but infinitely more retarded. But that's a huge risk.

Howard over Engram isn't even close to being debatable and is kind of a bad third choice. Howard violates Engram.


I think Engram and Howard will both be good but I see Engram as being the more explosive playmaker by far...Howard seems a lot more stiff.
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bananabucket


Joined: 29 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That E can really fly.
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tom cody


Joined: 01 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mccaffrey, Ross and Howard.
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Ragnarok


Joined: 17 Oct 2016
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Location: Washington, DC
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrl23 wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
tyler735 wrote:
I'll take McCaffrey,Ross, and Howard


I'd make all the same picks with little thought.

If I had to make a different choice, top change would be Samuel over Ross due to Ross' injury history and the fact that Samuel is clean and an awesome athlete.

Second, I'd choose Mixon over McCaffrey because he's more talented but infinitely more retarded. But that's a huge risk.

Howard over Engram isn't even close to being debatable and is kind of a bad third choice. Howard violates Engram.


I think Engram and Howard will both be good but I see Engram as being the more explosive playmaker by far...Howard seems a lot more stiff.


I think Howard isn't that far behind in terms of playmaking ability, but Engram is a liability as a blocker and I don't know if he has the size to get much better.
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Oregon Ducks


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mixon, Ross, Howard and Engram is a toss up. Depends on the offense.
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Skinsfan13


Joined: 18 May 2011
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oregon Ducks wrote:
Mixon, Ross, Howard and Engram is a toss up. Depends on the offense.


This is pretty clearly the answer for me as well.

I actually think that there is a talent gap in the first two comparisons from a purely football perspective. Mixon to me has top 5 back in the league potential while Cmac, as much as I love him, is kind've a position less weapon ala Percy Harvin maybe (there is some hope that he develops into a workhorse back in the way that Tiki Barber did eventually I guess). I'd always take the hyper talented player with a defined position over the movable chess piece any day of the week, and in this instance Mixon actually has some of the same versatility.

Ross is just a better wr than Samuel and it's not really close imo.

I also love Howard and Engram as prospects, hence the toss up categorization. If forced to choose between the two, I'd lean Howard because he's the more scheme versatile of the two.
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VIKINGS101011


Joined: 09 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mixon
Ross
Howard
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tyler735


Joined: 12 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skinsfan13 wrote:
Oregon Ducks wrote:
Mixon, Ross, Howard and Engram is a toss up. Depends on the offense.


This is pretty clearly the answer for me as well.

I actually think that there is a talent gap in the first two comparisons from a purely football perspective. Mixon to me has top 5 back in the league potential while Cmac, as much as I love him, is kind've a position less weapon ala Percy Harvin maybe (there is some hope that he develops into a workhorse back in the way that Tiki Barber did eventually I guess). I'd always take the hyper talented player with a defined position over the movable chess piece any day of the week, and in this instance Mixon actually has some of the same versatility.

Ross is just a better wr than Samuel and it's not really close imo.

I also love Howard and Engram as prospects, hence the toss up categorization. If forced to choose between the two, I'd lean Howard because he's the more scheme versatile of the two.


The bolded is the biggest farce I've seen in the scouting community in years. McCaffrey has a defined position. He is an elite runningback prospect. His production as a runner speaks for itself, but just to further elaborate, he possesses excellent vision and patience, which are 2 of the most valuable traits a RB prospect could have. On top of that he is a great athlete as demonstrated at the combine this year, and can clearly be seen on the field. I simply don't know how else to put it. He has elite production as a RB, Elite RB instincts, and great athleticism.

This doesn't even factor in his versatility. I'm just speaking purely as a RB he is an excellent prospect. Guys like Jamaal Charles, Chris Johnson, Lesean McCoy, Curtis Martin, Tiki Barber were all comparable from a size standpoint and had no issues running the ball in the NFL, I fully expect McCaffrey to follow that route in the NFL. People seem to punish him as a prospect for having such a versatile skill set, but it just doesnt make sense. It is simply an added bonus that he is an elite RB prospect with WR like ability in the passing game.

As for the Harvin comparison..McCaffreys production blows Harvins out of the water. McCaffrey has shown he can be the feature back, and still be a threat as a receiver. Harvin never showed that coming into the NFL which made him a bit of a tweener.
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MWil23


Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 6433
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See Tyler735 Post, expects a McCaffrey monologue/rant/defense.

Reads it...

Yep...that's about right. Laughing Laughing
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tyler735


Joined: 12 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MWil23 wrote:
See Tyler735 Post, expects a McCaffrey monologue/rant/defense.

Reads it...

Yep...that's about right. Laughing Laughing


See MWil23 Post, expects nothing added to the discussion

Reads it...

Yep...that's about right. Laughing Laughing
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Skinsfan13


Joined: 18 May 2011
Posts: 212
Location: Washington, DC
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyler735 wrote:
Skinsfan13 wrote:
Oregon Ducks wrote:
Mixon, Ross, Howard and Engram is a toss up. Depends on the offense.


This is pretty clearly the answer for me as well.

I actually think that there is a talent gap in the first two comparisons from a purely football perspective. Mixon to me has top 5 back in the league potential while Cmac, as much as I love him, is kind've a position less weapon ala Percy Harvin maybe (there is some hope that he develops into a workhorse back in the way that Tiki Barber did eventually I guess). I'd always take the hyper talented player with a defined position over the movable chess piece any day of the week, and in this instance Mixon actually has some of the same versatility.

Ross is just a better wr than Samuel and it's not really close imo.

I also love Howard and Engram as prospects, hence the toss up categorization. If forced to choose between the two, I'd lean Howard because he's the more scheme versatile of the two.


The bolded is the biggest farce I've seen in the scouting community in years. McCaffrey has a defined position. He is an elite runningback prospect. His production as a runner speaks for itself, but just to further elaborate, he possesses excellent vision and patience, which are 2 of the most valuable traits a RB prospect could have. On top of that he is a great athlete as demonstrated at the combine this year, and can clearly be seen on the field. I simply don't know how else to put it. He has elite production as a RB, Elite RB instincts, and great athleticism.

This doesn't even factor in his versatility. I'm just speaking purely as a RB he is an excellent prospect. Guys like Jamaal Charles, Chris Johnson, Lesean McCoy, Curtis Martin, Tiki Barber were all comparable from a size standpoint and had no issues running the ball in the NFL, I fully expect McCaffrey to follow that route in the NFL. People seem to punish him as a prospect for having such a versatile skill set, but it just doesnt make sense. It is simply an added bonus that he is an elite RB prospect with WR like ability in the passing game.

As for the Harvin comparison..McCaffreys production blows Harvins out of the water. McCaffrey has shown he can be the feature back, and still be a threat as a receiver. Harvin never showed that coming into the NFL which made him a bit of a tweener.


Don't mind the screed at all. I have no doubt that McCaffrey has the requisite skill to be a terrific rb, but I'll believe that he can shoulder a full-time back workload when I see it. There's a reason why NFL teams prefer players to meet certain measurable thresholds, because in their minds, it takes them away from the anecdotal (i.e. here are a handful of players that thrived at this weight) and perhaps the exceptions, and brings them closer to the conventional (this is the typical size that seems to correlate with longevity at the position). He may very well join the list you referenced, and Fournette/Mixon/Elliott might all break down next year, football is funny in that way, but when you're projecting forward, it's safer not to bank on exceptions to the rule.

Again, not saying Christian won't turn into the next McCoy, perhaps he will, but I feel a lot more comfortable projecting Mixon as a consistent 310+ carry, 70 reception back than I do McCaffrey given the fact that Mixon essentially brings an Elliott type h/w/s profile (with a touch better size and explosiveness) in addition to excellent versatility himself.

I'm not rooting against the kid, Im not betting against him either, I simply have questions about his ability to carry an NFL level workload. If he proves that he can, thats great, I'll be the first to commend him.

Also, in terms of calling him positionless, I'd like a mulligan on that because that's a misnomer. It would be more appropriate for me to say that I believe that he has an unconventional physical profile for a starting rb. I also believe that the Panthers have a plan to deploy him that is unconventional that will exploit his strengths and attempt to mitigate his weaknesses. To do that, I suspect that they will utilize him unconventionally. I bet that he spends more time in the slot than any top 3 round running back has in the past half-decade, and I guarantee you that they'll attempt to build him up to being a 280 carry back over a few seasons. If they do that, that's a tell-tale sign that they view him as not being a conventional back, and it won't simply be a byproduct of his wonderful versatility, it'll be because they're looking for ways to protect him given his physical profile.
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tyler735


Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 2568
Location: Minnesota
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skinsfan13 wrote:
tyler735 wrote:
Skinsfan13 wrote:
Oregon Ducks wrote:
Mixon, Ross, Howard and Engram is a toss up. Depends on the offense.


This is pretty clearly the answer for me as well.

I actually think that there is a talent gap in the first two comparisons from a purely football perspective. Mixon to me has top 5 back in the league potential while Cmac, as much as I love him, is kind've a position less weapon ala Percy Harvin maybe (there is some hope that he develops into a workhorse back in the way that Tiki Barber did eventually I guess). I'd always take the hyper talented player with a defined position over the movable chess piece any day of the week, and in this instance Mixon actually has some of the same versatility.

Ross is just a better wr than Samuel and it's not really close imo.

I also love Howard and Engram as prospects, hence the toss up categorization. If forced to choose between the two, I'd lean Howard because he's the more scheme versatile of the two.


The bolded is the biggest farce I've seen in the scouting community in years. McCaffrey has a defined position. He is an elite runningback prospect. His production as a runner speaks for itself, but just to further elaborate, he possesses excellent vision and patience, which are 2 of the most valuable traits a RB prospect could have. On top of that he is a great athlete as demonstrated at the combine this year, and can clearly be seen on the field. I simply don't know how else to put it. He has elite production as a RB, Elite RB instincts, and great athleticism.

This doesn't even factor in his versatility. I'm just speaking purely as a RB he is an excellent prospect. Guys like Jamaal Charles, Chris Johnson, Lesean McCoy, Curtis Martin, Tiki Barber were all comparable from a size standpoint and had no issues running the ball in the NFL, I fully expect McCaffrey to follow that route in the NFL. People seem to punish him as a prospect for having such a versatile skill set, but it just doesnt make sense. It is simply an added bonus that he is an elite RB prospect with WR like ability in the passing game.

As for the Harvin comparison..McCaffreys production blows Harvins out of the water. McCaffrey has shown he can be the feature back, and still be a threat as a receiver. Harvin never showed that coming into the NFL which made him a bit of a tweener.


Don't mind the screed at all. I have no doubt that McCaffrey has the requisite skill to be a terrific rb, but I'll believe that he can shoulder a full-time back workload when I see it. There's a reason why NFL teams prefer players to meet certain measurable thresholds, because in their minds, it takes them away from the anecdotal (i.e. here are a handful of players that thrived at this weight) and perhaps the exceptions, and brings them closer to the conventional (this is the typical size that seems to correlate with longevity at the position). He may very well join the list you referenced, and Fournette/Mixon/Elliott might all break down next year, football is funny in that way, but when you're projecting forward, it's safer not to bank on exceptions to the rule.

Again, not saying Christian won't turn into the next McCoy, perhaps he will, but I feel a lot more comfortable projecting Mixon as a consistent 310+ carry, 70 reception back than I do McCaffrey given the fact that Mixon essentially brings an Elliott type h/w/s profile (with a touch better size and explosiveness) in addition to excellent versatility himself.

I'm not rooting against the kid, Im not betting against him either, I simply have questions about his ability to carry an NFL level workload. If he proves that he can, thats great, I'll be the first to commend him.

Also, in terms of calling him positionless, I'd like a mulligan on that because that's a misnomer. It would be more appropriate for me to say that I believe that he has an unconventional physical profile for a starting rb. I also believe that the Panthers have a plan to deploy him that is unconventional that will exploit his strengths and attempt to mitigate his weaknesses. To do that, I suspect that they will utilize him unconventionally. I bet that he spends more time in the slot than any top 3 round running back has in the past half-decade, and I guarantee you that they'll attempt to build him up to being a 280 carry back over a few seasons. If they do that, that's a tell-tale sign that they view him as not being a conventional back, and it won't simply be a byproduct of his wonderful versatility, it'll be because they're looking for ways to protect him given his physical profile.


Your expectation on what a RB needs to be is archaic in today's NFL. 300+ carries by a RB has only happened 6 times the past 4 seasons. It's hardly a regular occurrence anymore. The NFL has become more of a passing league. It's rare for a RB to average over 20 carries a game now. I see no reason McCaffrey can't handle around 15 carries per game plus additional receptions and returns. There are several guys recently at the RB position that havehl had great success at McCaffrey's size.

This so called size prototype is largely mythical. McCaffrey is over 200lbs so he's not exactly some scat back like a Tavon Austin in college, and will likely add some weight naturally as he is only 20 years old. McCaffrey could get injured, but if he does it won't be because of a lack of size, but rather football is simply a contact sport and regardless of size, RB's get injured all the time...Off the top of my head..Fred Taylor, Willis Mcgahee, Deuce McCallister, Ronnie Brown, Carnell Williams, Edgerin James, Adrian Peterson, Darren Mcfadden, Trent Richardson, and countless other high draft picks battled the injury bug throughout their career.

Just for emphasis Adrian Peterson in his entire career had 300+ carries 4 times. This consistent 310+ carry 70 reception example is far fetched. Adrian Peterson had over 380 touches just 2 times in career. Leveon Bell has never surpassed 300 carries in a season, and neither has David Johnson.
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