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What would a disappointing season mean for Payton & Co.?
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: What would a disappointing season mean for Payton & Co.? Reply with quote




Recently I was listening (watching)to local radio sports Saints talk with former Saints greats Bobby Hebert, Deuce McAllister and host Deke Bellavia when the Cajun Cannon said something that caught my attention…

Quote:
Hebert: “The Saints will have to have a winning season and by winning season I mean 10 plus wins and a playoff appearance this year, if not I see major changes coming for the organization”


After this comment, both McAllister and Saints draft specialist Mike Detiller both appeared to nod in agreement. This is a radio broadcast owned by Tom Benson and these guys are usually pretty tuned in to what's happening with this team but this is the first time I can recall someone this close to the current organization making this kind of statement on Payton's future. Now, understandably Hebert didn't exactly mention Payton by name but it's safe to assume what he was referring to when he said “major changes”.

So, looking forward… what is your thoughts on this matter?

Forget the optimism for this upcoming season for a minute. There are a multitude of things that can derail even the most promising teams such as injuries, complacency, lack of cohesion, failure of free agents and draft picks to meet expectations and so on and so forth. Despite the fact that this Saints team appears to be somewhat better than the 7-9 team they were in 2016. It's safe to say that each team in the NFC South has gotten better this offseason making it very reasonable to suggest that it will be a uphill battle to regain the top of the division for the Saints in 2017.

The question then becomes… what then?

What if this team falls short of their goals and Payton and the Saints end a 4th straight season in disappointing fashion and home for the playoffs? Do you believe as Bobby does, do you foresee major changes in NOLA?

It's not only Payton either. Drew Brees contract allows him to become a free agent after the season in which the Saints would be hard pressed to franchise him for a third time at a cost of over 40 million for the season. He’ll also be 39 years old and possibly looking at playing for a new head coach if he was to remain in New Orleans under these circumstances. The major changes I believe Bobby was referring too was the fact that IF the 2017 Saints do in fact fail at their task next season he believes that Payton will be relieved from his duty as Saints head coach and Brees would likely eventually end up elsewhere in 2018 because of it. Now that's what I call “MAJOR CHANGES”. This Saints front office might have actually tried to prepare for this very scenario this past draft when they were rumored to target Texas Tech quarterback Patrick Mahomes with the 11th pick before the Chiefs jumped ahead of them to draft him. The Saints eventually took Ohio State corner Marshon Lattimore but both Loomis and Payton openly admitted that had Lattimore gone at 10 then Mahomes was the pick.

Now I don't know about you but this is what I believe… every team says they got the guy they wanted with their first pick after the draft. The Saints are no different when they openly glowed over the Lattimore selection saying they would have taken him over Mahomes if both was on the board. However, this is the NFL and more importantly the quarterback position. You mean to tell me that if they had a slightly higher grade on a corner in the top 10 but still had a top 10 grade on a quarterback that they would have taken the corner over the quarterback… HOGWASH!!! This is the NFL… No team with a quarterback need is making that pick, I'm sorry but I simply do not believe Loomis or Payton. I firmly believe that had both Lattimore and Mahomes been on the board at 11, Mahomes would have been the selection, everything said following the pick of Lattimore was what the team needed to say. Even the Saints draft room guest golfers were commenting on how Mahomes was the guy all the way. Sure no one expected Lattimore to fall the way he did but the fact that Mahomes was graded as highly as he was by the Saints and that they were prepared to make him the 11th overall pick speaks volumes toward this front office’s long term views for this franchise. Had Mahomes been the pick, no one was going to convince me that he was drafted that high to sit behind Brees for 3-4 years… NO WAY! At the most Mahomes would have spent the 2017 season on the bench but by 2018 Brees would have been gone (by his choice of the team's) and Mahomes would have been the new Saints starting quarterback. To put in perspective of just how close this came to happening, a report out of Buffalo says that had the Bills not traded the 10th pick to Kansas City they would have in fact drafted Marshon Lattimore at 10 making Mahomes the pick for New Orleans at 11. This is a scenario we as Saints fan could very well be going through right now giving this preparation for the 2017 season a whole different twist and vibe coming off the draft.

This story also proves that the Saints front office is seriously thinking and considering a life beyond Brees and maybe one much sooner than most want to realize. I've always been of the belief that Payton and Brees will depart this organization together and when they do a new era will begin in the Big Easy for better or worse.

The question I pose to you whodats is this… if this 2017 Saints team disappoints, will we see a changing of the guard like Bobby Hebert is predicting or do you believe that Sean Payton and Drew Brees can survive a 4th straight losing season?




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Canadian Saint


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changing of the guard. That means front office and head coach both. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Brees depart.

4th straight season of having an elite QB, as in the hardest position in the NFL to have an elite player, and not making the playoffs is a disaster. We've seen a multitude of changes on the team. We made trades, signed free agents and drafted. If all of that resulted in missing the playoffs/not contending, then the current group are too incapable of leading us going forward.

I'm with you though. I think Mahomes would've been the pick if Lattimore hadn't been there. It really seems the Saints are setting the table for a young QB. Young O-line? Check. Young WRs? Check. Young RB? Check.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the last season we 'go' for it, and failing that, go into a rebuild looking for the QB of the future. Part of that is changing of the guard. New GM and HC to usher in a new era.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canadian Saint wrote:
Changing of the guard. That means front office and head coach both. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Brees depart.

4th straight season of having an elite QB, as in the hardest position in the NFL to have an elite player, and not making the playoffs is a disaster. We've seen a multitude of changes on the team. We made trades, signed free agents and drafted. If all of that resulted in missing the playoffs/not contending, then the current group are too incapable of leading us going forward.

I'm with you though. I think Mahomes would've been the pick if Lattimore hadn't been there. It really seems the Saints are setting the table for a young QB. Young O-line? Check. Young WRs? Check. Young RB? Check.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the last season we 'go' for it, and failing that, go into a rebuild looking for the QB of the future. Part of that is changing of the guard. New GM and HC to usher in a new era.


So it's your belief that this regime wouldn't survive another losing season?

How about you personally... if you were the owner, would you give them another year in 2018 if they fail in 2017?
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kelsobob


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has to be their last season if they fail to make the playoffs. Loomis and Payton would have worn out their welcome, to me at least.

I don't know what to think about the Mahomes pick. A new GM and HC usually like THEIR pick to be the future QB unless it's a vet QB that has been good. I said right after the draft that if Mahomes was the pick, Payton would be here pass this season no matter the record.

The next question is what do the Saints do. Would you try to get an up and coming Defensive minded coach to compete with the offenses in the south? I think Carmicheal should be retained if possible.
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Mid Iowa


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you already know my feelings, but I'll reiterate.

If we're 1-2 games below .500 by week 11 or 12 (depending on the trend, i.e. did the losing start early, or late, or spread out evenly) Payton gets cut, throw in an interim, and start looking for the next franchise leader.

I'm not overly certain Brees will make a move in what will arguably be his last 1 or 2 seasons as a QB, "unless" he's so pissed that he wants to flip the Saints the proverbial bird, in which case, yes, he'll likely be part of the dismissal. I sure hope not, but who knows. I'd really like to see Brees lead a new, young QB into action over the next 2-3 seasons.

I agree with Bobby, fewer than 9 wins = unacceptable. They've had a long, long time to rebuild this thing, with one of the key pieces (Brees), and they have failed, and failed horribly IMO.
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm, you made a thread earlier about the Payton/Loomis blunders in the draft over the last few years. So how about this;

You and I were calling for Payton's job, and possibly even Loomis' job the last 2 years, and they were "saved". Let's pull out the ol' "what if" here.

What if, we would have pulled the trigger and sent Payton packing 2-3 years ago? We could have had Jack DelRio (knows defense, good coach) or Dan Quinn. Both of these coaches were hungry, willing to fight, and have arguably done a pretty darn good job with their respective teams.

Now here we are, 2-3 years later, looking at making this same decision, only now our marquee QB is on the end of his career, with 2-3 literally wasted years. Sad.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kelsobob wrote:
This has to be their last season if they fail to make the playoffs. Loomis and Payton would have worn out their welcome, to me at least.

I don't know what to think about the Mahomes pick. A new GM and HC usually like THEIR pick to be the future QB unless it's a vet QB that has been good. I said right after the draft that if Mahomes was the pick, Payton would be here pass this season no matter the record.

The next question is what do the Saints do. Would you try to get an up and coming Defensive minded coach to compete with the offenses in the south? I think Carmicheal should be retained if possible.


So... could it be that the Saints, particularly Payton viewed Mahomes has a possible safety net beyond this season?
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mid Iowa wrote:
Worm, you made a thread earlier about the Payton/Loomis blunders in the draft over the last few years. So how about this;

You and I were calling for Payton's job, and possibly even Loomis' job the last 2 years, and they were "saved". Let's pull out the ol' "what if" here.

What if, we would have pulled the trigger and sent Payton packing 2-3 years ago? We could have had Jack DelRio (knows defense, good coach) or Dan Quinn. Both of these coaches were hungry, willing to fight, and have arguably done a pretty darn good job with their respective teams.

Now here we are, 2-3 years later, looking at making this same decision, only now our marquee QB is on the end of his career, with 2-3 literally wasted years. Sad.


If you remember... I was very high in Dan Quinn when he was a hot HC candidate in Seattle. Had that move been made and the draft attacked like it was in Atalanta but here in NOLA with our offensive firepower at the time I think it could have been us in the Super Bowl this year and not the Falcons but that's Monday morning QB type stuff.

I said a while back that Payton is everything that's good about this team but he's also everything that's bad about this team. I want to believe that they can right the ship this year but I also want to believe that this is the last chance they get to do so.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ya know... I really don't wanna be a Debbie downer and I want to be optimistic about our chances of being a good team in 2017 and I do feel we have the talent to be exactly that but injuries have plagued this team for 3 straight seasons and more than any other team in the NFL were banking on that changing all of a sudden.

Just off the top of my head, here is a list of current Saints players we are expecting to contribute this season who are either recovering from injury as we speak, had a significant injury in 2016 or basically have a history of injury.

Adrian Peterson - FA addition, RB-1B
Daniel Lasco - Reserve RB, ST Ace
Colby Fleener - Starting TE
Michael Hooman - Reserve TE
Ryan Ramczyk - 1st round pick
Max Unger - Starting OC
Terron Armstead - Starting LT

Tyler Davison - Starting NT
Sheldon Rankins - Starting DT
Alex Okafor - FA addition, Starting DE
Hau' Oli Kikaha - Edge rusher
Dannell Ellerbe - Starting WLB
Stephone Anthony - Reserve LB
Alex Anzalone - Reserve LB, 3rd round pick
Manti Teo - Reserve LB, FA addition
Marshon Lattimore - Starting CB, 1st round pick
Delvin Breaux - Starting CB
PJ Williams - Starting Nickel CB
Damian Swann - Reserve CB


That's astounding!

Loomis and Payton have basically built a roster out of glass. I understand injuries can happen to anyone and all NFL teams deal with injuries but this is the roster that Paytons future hangs in the balance off...

Just saying
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately I think .500 is the "magic number" for Payton to keep his job.

I'd fire him for anything less than 10 wins.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last seasons we were hit by injuries even more than normal, which this season, you can't expect players to get hurt. Outside of injuries that have a propensity of recurrence, ankle/knee sprains, yes hamstrings as well though at least with Lattimore it seems like he figured it out what he needed to do to keep it from being an issue his last year at Ohio State, but freak injuries like torn ACLs(unless it's happened more than once), broken bones, etc shouldn't be expected to cause issues, and even with something like previous ACL injuries I expect those to be strains and soreness that limits in practice/sometimes a game.

I think I would give the front office a pass at 9-7 IF and only IF there are a key injury late in the season, something like we start 8-4 and lose Armstead/Jordan etc and end up losing against a tough final 4 games where only 1 game would be expected to be a win anyways. Otherwise I agree 10-6 is needed IMO.

I think a bad season would mean Payton is gone, Brees leaves/retires, Loomis loses his title as GM and is moved to President of Football Operations.

We'll have a young corp of good players and some cap space with a lot of dead money coming off teh books in the coming years so we could rebuild as more of a run oriented team.
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

domepatrol91 wrote:
Unfortunately I think .500 is the "magic number" for Payton to keep his job.

I'd fire him for anything less than 10 wins.


I think your right... and I agree.
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raves wrote:
Last seasons we were hit by injuries even more than normal, which this season, you can't expect players to get hurt.

I think I would give the front office a pass at 9-7 IF and only IF there are a key injury late in the season, something like we start 8-4 and lose Armstead/Jordan etc and end up losing against a tough final 4 games where only 1 game would be expected to be a win anyways. Otherwise I agree 10-6 is needed IMO.
I agree on the bottom part.

I hate the top part. I get it, but I hate the excuse of injuries. Remember the Patriots going, what, 11-5 or 13-3 or whatever it was without Brady? How screwed would we be without Brees? Seriously, probably 3-13 at best.

The Vikings lost their starting QB just prior to week 1 last year and they started out on a giant winning streak before.......injuries piled up and they couldn't play defense anymore, or score.

I get we had some injuries, and I get that many of our losses were so so so close to being wins, but it's the NFL, and injuries can't be an excuse for 3 straight 7-9 seasons. I just can't buy that.
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mid Iowa wrote:
Raves wrote:
Last seasons we were hit by injuries even more than normal, which this season, you can't expect players to get hurt.

I think I would give the front office a pass at 9-7 IF and only IF there are a key injury late in the season, something like we start 8-4 and lose Armstead/Jordan etc and end up losing against a tough final 4 games where only 1 game would be expected to be a win anyways. Otherwise I agree 10-6 is needed IMO.
I agree on the bottom part.

I hate the top part. I get it, but I hate the excuse of injuries. Remember the Patriots going, what, 11-5 or 13-3 or whatever it was without Brady? How screwed would we be without Brees? Seriously, probably 3-13 at best.

The Vikings lost their starting QB just prior to week 1 last year and they started out on a giant winning streak before.......injuries piled up and they couldn't play defense anymore, or score.

I get we had some injuries, and I get that many of our losses were so so so close to being wins, but it's the NFL, and injuries can't be an excuse for 3 straight 7-9 seasons. I just can't buy that.


There is a difference between teams with good defenses and a good back-up QB. I think the Saints would be better than you think with Chase Daniels as the back-up but our defense being less than stellar means we won't be able to win the same number of games. I think injuries can explain a season, thus not being an excuse. Obviously everyone on a team is a professional athlete and their job is to win games, but there is no denying some players are better than others and injuries means that your talent level drops.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raves wrote:
Mid Iowa wrote:
Raves wrote:
Last seasons we were hit by injuries even more than normal, which this season, you can't expect players to get hurt.

I think I would give the front office a pass at 9-7 IF and only IF there are a key injury late in the season, something like we start 8-4 and lose Armstead/Jordan etc and end up losing against a tough final 4 games where only 1 game would be expected to be a win anyways. Otherwise I agree 10-6 is needed IMO.
I agree on the bottom part.

I hate the top part. I get it, but I hate the excuse of injuries. Remember the Patriots going, what, 11-5 or 13-3 or whatever it was without Brady? How screwed would we be without Brees? Seriously, probably 3-13 at best.

The Vikings lost their starting QB just prior to week 1 last year and they started out on a giant winning streak before.......injuries piled up and they couldn't play defense anymore, or score.

I get we had some injuries, and I get that many of our losses were so so so close to being wins, but it's the NFL, and injuries can't be an excuse for 3 straight 7-9 seasons. I just can't buy that.


There is a difference between teams with good defenses and a good back-up QB. I think the Saints would be better than you think with Chase Daniels as the back-up but our defense being less than stellar means we won't be able to win the same number of games. I think injuries can explain a season, thus not being an excuse. Obviously everyone on a team is a professional athlete and their job is to win games, but there is no denying some players are better than others and injuries means that your talent level drops.


While this is true... it is he front offices job to build depth which they haven't done well enough to win. Also, if your a franchise that continues to struggle with the injury bug and yet you continue to target injury prone players in FA and the draft you cannot simply ignore it when players end up on the injury report and give this front office and staff a pass for it.

1 season sure... give them the benefit of the doubt but we're on year 3 now and possibly 4 depending on how 2017 goes.
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