Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Elway Re-Shuffles Front Office
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Denver Broncos
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3146
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^Bronosfan Germ just subliminally covered your questions above. You're right elway probably said what he thought but Elway doesn't act on impulse. It is a collaborative effort thats the lottlet thing that seperated this regime from tgr Mcdaniels yes men regime. It's not just elway followed by a bunch of yes man.


That's why no trade happened.
_________________
Props to Deadpulse for the Sig:

Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 19440
Location: Loveland, CO
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
This may not pertain to some of the current discussion, but I'm going to post it anyway.

I have not agreed with everything Elway has done since taking over in Denver, but make no mistake that John Elway is terrific at his job. I think his greatest strength has been surrounding himself with a great staff. I don't necessarily like every single one of them, but overall he's done an excellent job of adding quality NFL minds around him to help him evaluate and make decisions for this team.

A friend of mine wants Elway gone. Thinks he's the worst drafter in the NFL and made his mark purely on FA signings. Elway really has done a very good job in both areas, more so in FA, but he's made some tremendous picks as well. Not every player hits, especially in the draft. There is no doubt room for improvement in the draft, but Elway is still darn good.

Basically, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. There is honestly only 1 "organization runner" that I'd definitively take over Elway and that is Bill Belichick who will be one of the greatest (if not the greatest) in history. After that I think Elway is right in that 2nd tier with Newsome, Thompson, Schneider, and Reese. There are some up and comers that could be a part of that list, like McKenzie and Kiem.

I agree with this.

John Elway is, unequivocally, one of the top four or five, more likely two or three, GMs in the NFL. There are, at minimum, 25 teams that would trade their GM for ours in a heartbeat.

That being said there are just so many sycophants in this fan base and local media that someone needs to step in a say "hey, this could be a mistake." And that's where I come in.

After all, the only time I've ever been wrong was that time I thought I made a mistake.
_________________
big_palooka:

bhslinebacker wrote:
AAA is right, as he usually is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 3834
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wont nick Elway for his FA after the Super Bowl win, that was a tough offseason, but this offseason was unquestionably 'meh' in regards to FA. We had a ton of cap space and Elway walked away with one guaranteed starter. That's not a good FA haul. I like Watson as a flyer and think he can be a nice player, but he is far from a guarantee and falls more into the 50/50 category that Stephenson did last offseason (As in, 50% chance he flames out, 50% chance he finally gets it). I think Domata was unquestionably a overpay and that he will bring more in the locker room as a replacement for Ware's influence than he will on the field. Zach Kerr was a nice value signing, but the only offseason move that seems to have 'value' connected to it, a place where Elway once made his mark.

Basically, and maybe I was too optimistic, but I thought we were two impact players away from being a serious contender again. I don't think we got one true impact player, with Leary being a bubble impact guy (Who has SERIOUS concerns with his knees and with possible value inflation from playing between a top 5 LT and the top OC).

Overall, Elway, to me, started VERY hot as a GM but is slowly having worse and worse FA hauls and making more and more questionable draft picks. He still ranks top 5-8, but I honestly think the needle is trending downwards. Its not a free-fall, but I think some legitimate issues need to be raised.

Then again, he may be viewing this NFL climate similar to how many NBA teams view the Western Conference with the Golden State Warriors. Understanding that we wont get past New England without a clear franchise QB, he is building the team for 2-3 years from now when Brady falls off a cliff (If that even happens), but I seriously doubt that's the plan either.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3146
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't judge a free agency class until they play on the field. Honesty, when we signed Stewart I just thought meh he's an adequate replacement for Moore. Three years later he's arguably a top 3 fs in rhe league.

If the trenches greatly improve from free agency and the draft, causing a trickle down effect for tge offense and defense to play better that's a win in my mind.


I think it's a great strategy it's what New England does they are believed to have no flaws yet still addressed the trenches in this class.
_________________
Props to Deadpulse for the Sig:

Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jsthomp2007


Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 8672
Location: USA
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
You can't judge a free agency class until they play on the field. Honesty, when we signed Stewart I just thought meh he's an adequate replacement for Moore. Three years later he's arguably a top 3 fs in rhe league.

If the trenches greatly improve from free agency and the draft, causing a trickle down effect for tge offense and defense to play better that's a win in my mind.


I think it's a great strategy it's what New England does they are believed to have no flaws yet still addressed the trenches in this class.


I think you have to give them two years, before we can judge them.
_________________
Ninja stealth muggers in the Bellagio has left me in a state of congitive disonance...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
champ11


Joined: 14 Apr 2014
Posts: 5645
Location: CO -> ATX
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
germ-x wrote:
This may not pertain to some of the current discussion, but I'm going to post it anyway.

I have not agreed with everything Elway has done since taking over in Denver, but make no mistake that John Elway is terrific at his job. I think his greatest strength has been surrounding himself with a great staff. I don't necessarily like every single one of them, but overall he's done an excellent job of adding quality NFL minds around him to help him evaluate and make decisions for this team.

A friend of mine wants Elway gone. Thinks he's the worst drafter in the NFL and made his mark purely on FA signings. Elway really has done a very good job in both areas, more so in FA, but he's made some tremendous picks as well. Not every player hits, especially in the draft. There is no doubt room for improvement in the draft, but Elway is still darn good.

Basically, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. There is honestly only 1 "organization runner" that I'd definitively take over Elway and that is Bill Belichick who will be one of the greatest (if not the greatest) in history. After that I think Elway is right in that 2nd tier with Newsome, Thompson, Schneider, and Reese. There are some up and comers that could be a part of that list, like McKenzie and Kiem.

I agree with this.

John Elway is, unequivocally, one of the top four or five, more likely two or three, GMs in the NFL. There are, at minimum, 25 teams that would trade their GM for ours in a heartbeat.

That being said there are just so many sycophants in this fan base and local media that someone needs to step in a say "hey, this could be a mistake." And that's where I come in.

After all, the only time I've ever been wrong was that time I thought I made a mistake.


lol man too be honest I feel like I get a much clearer view on what is going on now that I live in Texas. I really do miss being around Bronco mania all the time though
_________________

team rammy

Joined: 3/10/2007
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3146
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jsthomp2007 wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
You can't judge a free agency class until they play on the field. Honesty, when we signed Stewart I just thought meh he's an adequate replacement for Moore. Three years later he's arguably a top 3 fs in rhe league.

If the trenches greatly improve from free agency and the draft, causing a trickle down effect for tge offense and defense to play better that's a win in my mind.


I think it's a great strategy it's what New England does they are believed to have no flaws yet still addressed the trenches in this class.


I think you have to give them two years, before we can judge them.


It's no secret denver and new england improved in very similar ways in the offseason with two different approaches.
New England trades a first for Cooks. Denver drafts Henderson and Mckenzie who give me two birds with one stone with way less of the cost.

Denver signs two free agent d lineman new england trades for ealy again very similar but with different approaches. Tbd.

Denver drafts bolles a plug and play left tackle and new england goes developmental in Garcia. Denver drafts walker new england rivers. Again well see but It's pretty ironic Denver and new England both decided to improve the trenches this pff season.
_________________
Props to Deadpulse for the Sig:

Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 3834
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't understand how you can look at the DEN and NE offseason and equate them in any way. NE is clearly making moves to win immediately, DEN is clearly making moves with a more long-term approach in mind.

NE added Stephon Gilmore, Brandin Cooks, Dwayne Allen, Kony Ealy, Lawrence Guy, Rex Burkhead, Mike Gillislee and only really lost Marty Bennett.

DEN added Ron Leary, Menelik Watson, Domata Peko, Zach Kerr and Jamal Charles.

Hell, Larence Guy is probably the 5th most likely impactful guy added for NE and I would take him over Peko or Kerr.

The Patriots have murdered this offseason, at least on paper. Its the closest they have come to DEN's offseason where we snagged Ware/Ward/Talib. I would love to hear an argument that we have had a comparable offseason to the Empire, because its guaranteed to be an act of futility. We honestly are smart for taking a more developmental approach because the NE team is going to be a few tiers above us for another 1-3 years.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
champ11


Joined: 14 Apr 2014
Posts: 5645
Location: CO -> ATX
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
I really don't understand how you can look at the DEN and NE offseason and equate them in any way. NE is clearly making moves to win immediately, DEN is clearly making moves with a more long-term approach in mind.

NE added Stephon Gilmore, Brandin Cooks, Dwayne Allen, Kony Ealy, Lawrence Guy, Rex Burkhead, Mike Gillislee and only really lost Marty Bennett.

DEN added Ron Leary, Menelik Watson, Domata Peko, Zach Kerr and Jamal Charles.

Hell, Larence Guy is probably the 5th most likely impactful guy added for NE and I would take him over Peko or Kerr.

The Patriots have murdered this offseason, at least on paper. Its the closest they have come to DEN's offseason where we snagged Ware/Ward/Talib. I would love to hear an argument that we have had a comparable offseason to the Empire, because its guaranteed to be an act of futility. We honestly are smart for taking a more developmental approach because the NE team is going to be a few tiers above us for another 1-3 years.


lmaoooo i forgot how good NE's offseason was. smdh
_________________

team rammy

Joined: 3/10/2007
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 6914
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
I wont nick Elway for his FA after the Super Bowl win, that was a tough offseason, but this offseason was unquestionably 'meh' in regards to FA. We had a ton of cap space and Elway walked away with one guaranteed starter. That's not a good FA haul. I like Watson as a flyer and think he can be a nice player, but he is far from a guarantee and falls more into the 50/50 category that Stephenson did last offseason (As in, 50% chance he flames out, 50% chance he finally gets it). I think Domata was unquestionably a overpay and that he will bring more in the locker room as a replacement for Ware's influence than he will on the field. Zach Kerr was a nice value signing, but the only offseason move that seems to have 'value' connected to it, a place where Elway once made his mark.

Basically, and maybe I was too optimistic, but I thought we were two impact players away from being a serious contender again. I don't think we got one true impact player, with Leary being a bubble impact guy (Who has SERIOUS concerns with his knees and with possible value inflation from playing between a top 5 LT and the top OC).

Overall, Elway, to me, started VERY hot as a GM but is slowly having worse and worse FA hauls and making more and more questionable draft picks. He still ranks top 5-8, but I honestly think the needle is trending downwards. Its not a free-fall, but I think some legitimate issues need to be raised.

Then again, he may be viewing this NFL climate similar to how many NBA teams view the Western Conference with the Golden State Warriors. Understanding that we wont get past New England without a clear franchise QB, he is building the team for 2-3 years from now when Brady falls off a cliff (If that even happens), but I seriously doubt that's the plan either.


I think that's a pretty fair assessment. This conversation also kinda dovetails into the "Draft strategy" thread. Elway is in a learning curve and has to realize the personnel strategies required to maintain a successful franchise are much different than whats needed to rebuild a dumpster fire franchise.

Only really talent depleted or loaded frachises, opposite ends of the scale, can actually draft BPA. Elway did that his 1st two years with no talent, then was able to continue that when he built a franchise strong enough that no rookie was going to start at any position.

That changes when you start having salary cap issues and players walk in FA causing glaring holes at some spots. Then position of need sets in.

It's a balance that BB has managed to thrive at maintaining.

The biggest difference between Elways approach and BB's is their method of dealing with re-signing draft picks.

BB either gets them re-signed before their contract year or trades them, often for draft picks. I don't think you can find an instance where he's let a drafted player become an UFA and then signed him.

Elway prefers to let players become UFA's and let the market decide their value, then pay that premium to re-sign them. We're on the cusp of doing that again with Roby with whom we just exercised his 5th year option. If we don't re-sign him prior to that 5th season we probably can't afford him.

Until we change that philosophy I see us as an up and down franchise for ever, always at the edge of the salary cap and struggling to retain our own.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 3834
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Until we change that philosophy I see us as an up and down franchise for ever, always at the edge of the salary cap and struggling to retain our own.


Are we really that bad though? I would argue that Wolfe, Harris, Darian and to a lesser extend Marshall all are on team friendly deals, and none truly tested the FA market prior to extension.

Von likely had his agent in the ear telling him that he can break the market, and that's his right to do. I don't think Elway ever had the chance to lock him up prior to testing the market.

I would love to sign all our draft picks to long term deal right before they break out and then roll with insane values all day long, but that generally doesn't happen often. I would say that we are better than most at getting deals done with our soon-to-be-FA's. Then again, those deals all got done when we were perennial Super Bowl contenders, so I wouldn't expect to get values like that in the immediate future.

And BB has signed a number of his draft picks to large deals. Hightower, Solder, Cannon, McCourtney, Gronk, Murderer, Vollmer, etc. That being said, he does cash in on soon-to-be FA's at a rate that may be better than the entire league combined.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jsthomp2007


Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 8672
Location: USA
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
Until we change that philosophy I see us as an up and down franchise for ever, always at the edge of the salary cap and struggling to retain our own.


Are we really that bad though? I would argue that Wolfe, Harris, Darian and to a lesser extend Marshall all are on team friendly deals, and none truly tested the FA market prior to extension.

Von likely had his agent in the ear telling him that he can break the market, and that's his right to do. I don't think Elway ever had the chance to lock him up prior to testing the market.

I would love to sign all our draft picks to long term deal right before they break out and then roll with insane values all day long, but that generally doesn't happen often. I would say that we are better than most at getting deals done with our soon-to-be-FA's. Then again, those deals all got done when we were perennial Super Bowl contenders, so I wouldn't expect to get values like that in the immediate future.

And BB has signed a number of his draft picks to large deals. Hightower, Solder, Cannon, McCourtney, Gronk, Murderer, Vollmer, etc. That being said, he does cash in on soon-to-be FA's at a rate that may be better than the entire league combined.


Is this the point of this thread? I thought it was to talk about the front office, not the Patriots.
_________________
Ninja stealth muggers in the Bellagio has left me in a state of congitive disonance...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3530
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
Until we change that philosophy I see us as an up and down franchise for ever, always at the edge of the salary cap and struggling to retain our own.


Are we really that bad though? I would argue that Wolfe, Harris, Darian and to a lesser extend Marshall all are on team friendly deals, and none truly tested the FA market prior to extension.

Von likely had his agent in the ear telling him that he can break the market, and that's his right to do. I don't think Elway ever had the chance to lock him up prior to testing the market.

I would love to sign all our draft picks to long term deal right before they break out and then roll with insane values all day long, but that generally doesn't happen often. I would say that we are better than most at getting deals done with our soon-to-be-FA's. Then again, those deals all got done when we were perennial Super Bowl contenders, so I wouldn't expect to get values like that in the immediate future.

And BB has signed a number of his draft picks to large deals. Hightower, Solder, Cannon, McCourtney, Gronk, Murderer, Vollmer, etc. That being said, he does cash in on soon-to-be FA's at a rate that may be better than the entire league combined.


I think the major difference with BB and Elway are two-fold:

1. FA-wise BB is always willing to cut bait a year early if he doesn't see a team-friendly or reasonable extension coming - usually with another pick so the value keeps adding even when that guy leaves (Chandler Jones & Jaime Collins the most recent examples). That requires having the next guy in line ready to take over but they do that exceptionally well - Trey Flowers (2015 4th rounder) & Hightower stepped in without the D missing a beat...and cheaper, too.

2. Draft-wise as Germany pointed out with SEA, NE really takes a value-based approach to drafting from Day 2 onwards. That's in sharp contrast to Elway's recent practice of locking in to certain guys, regardless of how the board falls. Again if that 1 guy is special it's a great move. But we are seeing it a lot with Elway, not just the Rd 1 choice. NE on the other hand moves back regularly if the board lets them and then only selectively moves up if the tier of their targets is drying up. It's something else to watch.

The other key difference that BB gets that many (including the both of you) recognize is the insane value Brady gives them as an elite QB. But that alone isn't enough of a reason that explains their sustained success. NE's ability to find value in the middle rounds of the draft puts them in the company of GB/SEA/other top drafting orgs. The Elway Day 3 record could stand up there as a top 5 org but as we covered Day 2 is nowhere near that level. And like Elway NE routinely finds insane value in the bargain FA market - Chris Hogan, Dion Lewis and Kyle Van Noy are just recent FA examples.

All of which is why DEN & other teams need to hit on all aspects of the draft and why even only 1-2 dry years in the bargain FA stage suddenly creates visible roster depth differences.

Elway's actually a master of getting cap friendly extensions. And we know about his past bargain FA finds. The only problem is that bargain FA's rarely sign more than 2-year deals. So Elway has to keep hitting regularly. You hit in the draft then you get those guys for 4 cheap years - hit on the Rd 2-3 picks . The 2012-15 misses in Rd 2-3 that we've covered before were covered by the depth the entire 2012 draft provided and the bargain UDFA/value FA Elway kept finding. But ideally Elway hits on more Day 2 picks then he has cheap 4-year guys to add roster depth - you only need to miss on 2 years of value FA and that depth provided to the roster is gone.

What's ironic is that as BF2010 alluded to even if Elway has missed more of late (and yeah last year he had no cap $ to work with so hard to put the FA misses all on him), he's still a top 5 GM overall (or top 5-8 last 2 years). He's so good on Day 3 and cap management that hasn't changed. But the margin between a good org and the org at the top like we were in 2015 is small and addressing any weakness is crucial. It's why who Elway brings in for the FO does matter.
_________________
steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.


Last edited by Broncofan on Tue May 09, 2017 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 6914
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:


And BB has signed a number of his draft picks to large deals. Hightower, Solder, Cannon, McCourtney, Gronk, Murderer, Vollmer, etc. That being said, he does cash in on soon-to-be FA's at a rate that may be better than the entire league combined.


He absolutely does! he does it however before the final year of a rookie contract.

He offers them financial security for life and a substantial pay increase for their 4th year in exchange for a lower annual total for the contract duration (20%+-) than that player could receive by becoming an UFA.

If he can't get what he considers a "team friendly" deal he either trades them, usually for picks, or lets them play out their contract and walk, leaving him with compensatory picks.

IMO a pretty sharp way of doing business. It's quite hard to argue with the results. He's established a dynasty that I don't think has ever been matched as far as longevity and results.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 3834
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He absolutely does! he does it however before the final year of a rookie contract.


What I am saying is that the group of players that Elway has extended before their final year is just as impressive as BB's recent pre-UFA extensions; Chris Harris, Derek Wolfe, Darian Stewart and Brandon Marshall.

I think its a great way to do business, in that we agree. What I don't see is the idea that Elway isn't extending players early at a high enough rate. One per season, the rough rate that he is doing so, has to be in the top tier of NFL GM's getting below market, pre UFA extensions done with top tier talent.


Quote:
If he can't get what he considers a "team friendly" deal he either trades them, usually for picks, or lets them play out their contract and walk, leaving him with compensatory picks.


I think that Elway could have cashed in on a player-for-picks trade a bit more often, but doesn't he subscribe to the same comp pick idea as BB? I mean, we just got a good deal of comp picks for letting guys walk after the SB and not overpaying.

IDK, I just don't see Elway as having issues in overpaying homegrown talent. Other than Orlando Franklin, there hasn't been a player that Elway let walk who, given the cap situation and talent available, really seemed like a mistake at the time. I guess I wish he kept Rahim, but that was for the old Fox scheme with a single-deep FS.

Elways issues IMO don't come from failing to extend players timely, but rather from failing to hit even doubles in R2/R3, his increasing penchant to lock on to 'his guy' during the draft and develop an OL.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Denver Broncos All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group