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Just my two cents 17
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blankman0021


Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 2744
Location: MKE
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
3) With Shields going down the lack of pure man skills really showed it's ugly face. You can't fix this but hopefully these guys will be in better situations to succeed with House/King now in the stable. Hope so, because there are some good football players in this group even if they fall a hair short on man skills. I'd hate to give up on a talent like Randall for example because they lack the parts to make his game work.


If you can't touch on this, let me know, but what type of scheme at CB do you personally see Randall excelling at? And what does he lack in man-skills by your eye currently?

I feel the kid can run with almost all of them, but falls just shy in tracking the player as they run. I see PLUS ball skills when the ball is in the air. He looked like a different player at the end of last year though, and I've gotta think it has more to do with injuries than regression. Rollins too, but much different athlete there.

While it's on my mind, how different are Jones and Randall in coverage?
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squire12


Joined: 15 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:


I not gonna get too deep into this one for obvious reasons. I'll just say I FIRMLY believe if you get Capers players he'll build ya one hell of a defense.



Isn't this true for just about every defensive coordinator though.
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Madtown


Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 1280
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobSacamano wrote:
I will pound the table for more of this, Palmy. Thanks man.


Just wanted to repeat this. Thanks, Palmy. Always appreciate having you around.
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deathstar


Joined: 06 Jun 2012
Posts: 1053
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blankman0021 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
3) With Shields going down the lack of pure man skills really showed it's ugly face. You can't fix this but hopefully these guys will be in better situations to succeed with House/King now in the stable. Hope so, because there are some good football players in this group even if they fall a hair short on man skills. I'd hate to give up on a talent like Randall for example because they lack the parts to make his game work.


If you can't touch on this, let me know, but what type of scheme at CB do you personally see Randall excelling at? And what does he lack in man-skills by your eye currently?

I feel the kid can run with almost all of them, but falls just shy in tracking the player as they run. I see PLUS ball skills when the ball is in the air. He looked like a different player at the end of last year though, and I've gotta think it has more to do with injuries than regression. Rollins too, but much different athlete there.

While it's on my mind, how different are Jones and Randall in coverage?


Just my two cents but Randall is suffering from a lot of what Jabrill Peppers suffered from at Michigan. We play a scheme that puts our corners in a lot of outside positions with expecting help from other corners and safeties. Given our lack of other cornerback talent it's put Randall in a position to have to man up instead of more zone, which Capers would prefer. What a lot of people see as losing the man in coverage I see as expecting help and not receiving it.

To be fair I bought Randall's jersey last year and may still be justifying that purchase. But I think with Randall you see a ton of solid fundamental work, but he's not being helped at all by the coverage he was forced to run. Peppers is the same way but opposite. He's really good at man but due to the coverages they ran, mostly a match zone, he got blamed for a lot of blown coverages by his safeties.
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BobSacamano


Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 13853
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Am Rodgers wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
Trubisky has a shot but that's a league average arm talent and I'm not real sure he'll ever be a leader of men.


So they drafted Cutler with a worse arm? Yes please.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAJ0PH3YUTQ#t=1m20s

Same 'ol Jay Wink


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last year's vikings were far better than the packers team that just won
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palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

squire12 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:


I not gonna get too deep into this one for obvious reasons. I'll just say I FIRMLY believe if you get Capers players he'll build ya one hell of a defense.



Isn't this true for just about every defensive coordinator though.


Should be at the pro level, no doubt.

That said, I'm a Capers guy and have a long history with him that leads all the way back to my youth. Great guy and one hell of a coach IMO. Things happen, and many of them did for the Packers last year. Fact is there they were one game away from the dance.....

I mean, TT has done a few things that I would have done a little different as well. Man is still elite at his job though. This is very much so how I see Capers as well.
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TheOnlyThing


Joined: 01 Sep 2015
Posts: 842
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:


I have my own opinions on this but I'd like to hear yours. How much of last year's struggles with that group were injury related vs just not being ready or not being very good? And also, how do you feel about that group going into the year?


I personally feel a few things needed to go wrong to create such a disaster.

1) The Shields injury put players in positions they clearly were not ready for. We seen the same thing on offense the year prior when Nelson went down.
[/quote]

You've alluded a couple times to the Shields in jury at CB significantly (and negatively) impacting the defense in 2016 much like the Nelson injury at WR hurt the offense in 2015.

Question, do you see any chance of history repeating itself in 2017 at OLB?

Behind Clay and Perry (who both have extensive injury histories) are 3 very young and virtually untested guys, including a 4th round rookie.

Maybe OLB is not as important to GB as CB or WR or maybe the depth behind the starters is better, but I'd love to get your take.
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driftwood


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 7935
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheOnlyThing wrote:


You've alluded a couple times to the Shields in jury at CB significantly (and negatively) impacting the defense in 2016 much like the Nelson injury at WR hurt the offense in 2015.

Question, do you see any chance of history repeating itself in 2017 at OLB?

Behind Clay and Perry (who both have extensive injury histories) are 3 very young and virtually untested guys, including a 4th round rookie.

Maybe OLB is not as important to GB as CB or WR or maybe the depth behind the starters is better, but I'd love to get your take.


in fairness, no team can suffer significant injuries to multiple starters @ 1 position & still function at a high level... its a very difficult thing to do across the league in any aspect (unless you're the patriots @ QB).

i totally get what you're saying though because i ask myself that same question too "if we lose a player to injury will it have a domino effect of handcuffing some positions for a period of time" & the answer is probably not

& when you have a D like capers runs here with many moving parts & a lot of square pegs in square holes with no other squares to fill in if needed, it gets interesting sometimes. but i also feel that most talented teams can withstand some road bumps to the overall health of a roster as long as they dont stack up to a significant amount
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palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There has NEVER been a bigger premium on pass rushers/the pass rush than there is right now! Hell, they took everything else away.....
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palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

driftwood wrote:
TheOnlyThing wrote:


You've alluded a couple times to the Shields in jury at CB significantly (and negatively) impacting the defense in 2016 much like the Nelson injury at WR hurt the offense in 2015.

Question, do you see any chance of history repeating itself in 2017 at OLB?

Behind Clay and Perry (who both have extensive injury histories) are 3 very young and virtually untested guys, including a 4th round rookie.

Maybe OLB is not as important to GB as CB or WR or maybe the depth behind the starters is better, but I'd love to get your take.


in fairness, no team can suffer significant injuries to multiple starters @ 1 position & still function at a high level... its a very difficult thing to do across the league in any aspect (unless you're the patriots @ QB).

i totally get what you're saying though because i ask myself that same question too "if we lose a player to injury will it have a domino effect of handcuffing some positions for a period of time" & the answer is probably not

& when you have a D like capers runs here with many moving parts & a lot of square pegs in square holes with no other squares to fill in if needed, it gets interesting sometimes. but i also feel that most talented teams can withstand some road bumps to the overall health of a roster as long as they dont stack up to a significant amount


Just keep in mind that position played plays it's part here as well. If a Nelson or a Shields goes down it can place multiple players out of place.
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PossibleCabbage


Joined: 25 Apr 2011
Posts: 4798
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we've seen the whole "one guy goes down and suddenly everybody is playing out of position and the whole unit suffers" phenomenon most frequently on the offensive line. I mean, in 2009 Colledge started at left guard and both tackle spots, which isn't good for him or for the OL as a unit.
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British


Joined: 11 Sep 2010
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Location: England
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My biggest worry about this team is OLB depth. That's where the consistent rush comes from in Caper's system and both Clay and Perry have been banged up. Clay in particular seems unable to last a whole season without missing multiple games.

Elliot, Fackrell and Biegel seems a very dubious bench that will almost certainly be needed.

My only hope is we generate some rush from the interior line with Daniels, Montravious and Clark.

I cannot believe the Packers are totally happy with the OLB group though. Maybe they take a look at camp cuts elsewhere. I've read that Lowry might be moved to OLB? Hardly convincing.
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PackyAttacky


Joined: 12 Mar 2017
Posts: 206
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

British wrote:
My biggest worry about this team is OLB depth. That's where the consistent rush comes from in Caper's system and both Clay and Perry have been banged up. Clay in particular seems unable to last a whole season without missing multiple games.

Elliot, Fackrell and Biegel seems a very dubious bench that will almost certainly be needed.

My only hope is we generate some rush from the interior line with Daniels, Montravious and Clark.

I cannot believe the Packers are totally happy with the OLB group though. Maybe they take a look at camp cuts elsewhere. I've read that Lowry might be moved to OLB? Hardly convincing.


You cannot have that 10 million dollar back up every year. What we had going with Peppers is not reaslisitic in the long term. Only so much money to go around on starters let alone being able to pay back ups that kind of money.

Every year its a gamble in the NFL and you play the hand you're dealt. TT and company are gambling on Clay and Perrys health and IMO if Clay gets hurt most of next season it is probable his last. But his previous play warrants a gamble on him.

And I must be higher on Fackrell and Beigel than most. People need to have realsitic expectations of back-ups. That guy back up JJ Watt is not as good as JJ, there is going to be a huge drop off in play. You don't want to be completely SOL there though.
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Shanedorf


Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Posts: 1511
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Just my two cents 17 Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:


THE TRADE: I've been asked about this trade a lot. I don't think it worked out as planned for the Packers but I don't think it hurt one bit either. I'm also 99% sure they would have taken King at #29 anyway. They made that move back because they wanted the possible trades talks that would come with having the first pick on day two/three. That didn't play out but they got their guy anyway and also got a very nice player in Biegel out of the deal as well. That said, they did lose a 5th year of control on King.


OverTheCap went through each draft day trade and put a monetary/cap number on it.
Here's their commentary on the Packers-Browns trade and how they view the 5th year option from the monetary side

Trade 4: Cleveland/Green Bay

Winner: Packers acquired $4.4M in net value

"Whenever you can trade a few slots back into the second round you should always do it. The cost of the 2nd round pick drops tremendously and the expected return is almost no different. It’s the same as acquiring a $2M player for absolutely nothing. Moving back into the first round for a tight end is definitely a curious decision as there is less to gain from that than the more expensive impact positions as well. Like Seattle Green Bay is a master of this move. The Browns basically end up even on the night after this one."

"I did receive a lot of comments last night about the concept of having the option 5th year versus the non-option but lower cost rookie contract so Ill just share my thoughts here on it.
If you are a proactive organization that typically extends early or clearly conveys the value to players agents the option year is of little benefit. Using Seattle as an example - did not having an option year impact their negotiations with Russell Wilson or Richard Sherman? No. Did the Packers having an option on Datone Jones change their ultimate end game with him? No. If the player is good enough he’ll be extended regardless of where he was drafted. The franchise tag is always in play as well."

"If you are a team that tends to struggle with decisions, is constantly capped out, etc… then the option is something that may be of added benefit. A team like the Jets with Muhammad Wilkerson benefitted from that option because they could not make a decision on what to do with him and they wanted him to linger there while they figured it out."

"Until I see the option somehow being a massive benefit to either a reduced contract rate or the lack of an option causing a team to grossly overpay/lose a player I would not be concerned about losing an extra year of control on a player I'm likely extending anyway."

https://overthecap.com/valuing-draft-day-trades
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CentralFC


Joined: 03 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those are excellent points on the depressed benefit of the fifth year options for the more stable organizations. The free "$2M player" (Biegel) will be a big help for us on teams and as a depth rusher. I think the trade was a tremendous success.
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GWH87 wrote:
Somebody take the off season shovel out of Ted's hands & bury him in his own hole.

How can he dig a hole if he's too busy sitting on his hands?
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