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JBURGE25


Joined: 25 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
HorizontoZenith wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
HorizontoZenith wrote:
Just curious why Josh Jones fell to our second pick if he was thought of so highly by the rest of the NFL. I was hoping I would be able to have low expectations for him, but now I see interceptions and touchdowns and huge plays and Charles Woodson/Nick Collins clone baby Hall of Fame career.


Not sure what you mean? Jones clearly wasn't for everyone. His game sure works with the vision lines he's about to see in Capers system though.

I guess I was just asking what made him not for everyone and what made him fall far enough for us to get him. Since there were about 4 or 5 safeties taken before him in the second round. Or maybe I just thought I read that you said that a lot of teams liked him a lot.


Long story short, this is a system that puts a huge premium on eyes/legs at safety. Playing safety in this system can be hell and elite play speed can get ya out of a ton of crap. One could make a strong case that good field speed matters more at safety in this fit than it does at CB.

I mean, Gunter was a 4.7 starting CB last year and did OK for the most part. This is a very simple CB system and many show better than the numbers. Just not the case at safety. Many ways to skin that cat be it smarts, eyes, or legs. But sound play speed can get ya out of a ton of crap in the backend of this D. Add the vision lanes to the ball with the multiple front and play speed truly is at a high premium here.

The NFL draft is all about finding value. Look for the things you hold at a premium and you'll find value more often than not. There was a bigger premium on Jones in this system than most.
This is the reason why I like Brice so much. Love the speed. I remember reading an article sometime in the winter that he was projected a 3rd round pick by some faction, was skeptical of that but it sure made me go back and watch everything. Would love to know where his head's at though
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HorizontoZenith wrote:
Obviously. I was just curious as to why a few safeties went before him. Was he less NFL ready, injuries, less physical... etc.


I think it's probably has more to do with fit than anything else. We only saw 3 safeties go in the first round, so I think it's safe to say that they had a clear grade lean there. We saw one of those hybrid CB/S types in Budda Baker (Tyrann Mathieu-lite) and then the athletic freak Obi and a poor man's Malik Hooker in Marcus Williams. Probably just a matter of the safety fits didn't really match the team needs.
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CentralFC


Joined: 03 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JBURGE25 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
HorizontoZenith wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
HorizontoZenith wrote:
Just curious why Josh Jones fell to our second pick if he was thought of so highly by the rest of the NFL. I was hoping I would be able to have low expectations for him, but now I see interceptions and touchdowns and huge plays and Charles Woodson/Nick Collins clone baby Hall of Fame career.


Not sure what you mean? Jones clearly wasn't for everyone. His game sure works with the vision lines he's about to see in Capers system though.

I guess I was just asking what made him not for everyone and what made him fall far enough for us to get him. Since there were about 4 or 5 safeties taken before him in the second round. Or maybe I just thought I read that you said that a lot of teams liked him a lot.


Long story short, this is a system that puts a huge premium on eyes/legs at safety. Playing safety in this system can be hell and elite play speed can get ya out of a ton of crap. One could make a strong case that good field speed matters more at safety in this fit than it does at CB.

I mean, Gunter was a 4.7 starting CB last year and did OK for the most part. This is a very simple CB system and many show better than the numbers. Just not the case at safety. Many ways to skin that cat be it smarts, eyes, or legs. But sound play speed can get ya out of a ton of crap in the backend of this D. Add the vision lanes to the ball with the multiple front and play speed truly is at a high premium here.

The NFL draft is all about finding value. Look for the things you hold at a premium and you'll find value more often than not. There was a bigger premium on Jones in this system than most.
This is the reason why I like Brice so much. Love the speed. I remember reading an article sometime in the winter that he was projected a 3rd round pick by some faction, was skeptical of that but it sure made me go back and watch everything. Would love to know where his head's at though


Actually a first round pick-level talent, evaluators were saying in the preseason/training camp.

I imagine he'll compete for snaps but the game doesn't come to him like it does Jones.
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I Am Rodgers


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
I Am Rodgers wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
Trubisky has a shot but that's a league average arm talent and I'm not real sure he'll ever be a leader of men.


So they drafted Cutler with a worse arm? Yes please.


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

I don't want to say anything I shouldn't here. His leadership style is Tebow-ish. Just not sure full grown men are gonna buy it/buy it for long. He's pretty athletic though and the arm is good enough. Think Tebow's head with Romo's legs and Cousins arm.....


So he'll be playing baseball in 6 years is the short of it. Laughing
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NormSizedMidget


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralFC wrote:
JBURGE25 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
HorizontoZenith wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
HorizontoZenith wrote:
Just curious why Josh Jones fell to our second pick if he was thought of so highly by the rest of the NFL. I was hoping I would be able to have low expectations for him, but now I see interceptions and touchdowns and huge plays and Charles Woodson/Nick Collins clone baby Hall of Fame career.


Not sure what you mean? Jones clearly wasn't for everyone. His game sure works with the vision lines he's about to see in Capers system though.

I guess I was just asking what made him not for everyone and what made him fall far enough for us to get him. Since there were about 4 or 5 safeties taken before him in the second round. Or maybe I just thought I read that you said that a lot of teams liked him a lot.


Long story short, this is a system that puts a huge premium on eyes/legs at safety. Playing safety in this system can be hell and elite play speed can get ya out of a ton of crap. One could make a strong case that good field speed matters more at safety in this fit than it does at CB.

I mean, Gunter was a 4.7 starting CB last year and did OK for the most part. This is a very simple CB system and many show better than the numbers. Just not the case at safety. Many ways to skin that cat be it smarts, eyes, or legs. But sound play speed can get ya out of a ton of crap in the backend of this D. Add the vision lanes to the ball with the multiple front and play speed truly is at a high premium here.

The NFL draft is all about finding value. Look for the things you hold at a premium and you'll find value more often than not. There was a bigger premium on Jones in this system than most.
This is the reason why I like Brice so much. Love the speed. I remember reading an article sometime in the winter that he was projected a 3rd round pick by some faction, was skeptical of that but it sure made me go back and watch everything. Would love to know where his head's at though


Actually a first round pick-level talent, evaluators were saying in the preseason/training camp.

I imagine he'll compete for snaps but the game doesn't come to him like it does Jones.


He's referring to a McGinn article IIRC, that said he looked like a 3rd and Evans some sort of 5th or something. I always forget, I've had it linked because I can never find it more than once here lol.

I missed the 1st round thing, that's some high damn praise!
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CentralFC


Joined: 03 Feb 2011
Posts: 11744
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NormSizedMidget wrote:
CentralFC wrote:
JBURGE25 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
HorizontoZenith wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
HorizontoZenith wrote:
Just curious why Josh Jones fell to our second pick if he was thought of so highly by the rest of the NFL. I was hoping I would be able to have low expectations for him, but now I see interceptions and touchdowns and huge plays and Charles Woodson/Nick Collins clone baby Hall of Fame career.


Not sure what you mean? Jones clearly wasn't for everyone. His game sure works with the vision lines he's about to see in Capers system though.

I guess I was just asking what made him not for everyone and what made him fall far enough for us to get him. Since there were about 4 or 5 safeties taken before him in the second round. Or maybe I just thought I read that you said that a lot of teams liked him a lot.


Long story short, this is a system that puts a huge premium on eyes/legs at safety. Playing safety in this system can be hell and elite play speed can get ya out of a ton of crap. One could make a strong case that good field speed matters more at safety in this fit than it does at CB.

I mean, Gunter was a 4.7 starting CB last year and did OK for the most part. This is a very simple CB system and many show better than the numbers. Just not the case at safety. Many ways to skin that cat be it smarts, eyes, or legs. But sound play speed can get ya out of a ton of crap in the backend of this D. Add the vision lanes to the ball with the multiple front and play speed truly is at a high premium here.

The NFL draft is all about finding value. Look for the things you hold at a premium and you'll find value more often than not. There was a bigger premium on Jones in this system than most.
This is the reason why I like Brice so much. Love the speed. I remember reading an article sometime in the winter that he was projected a 3rd round pick by some faction, was skeptical of that but it sure made me go back and watch everything. Would love to know where his head's at though


Actually a first round pick-level talent, evaluators were saying in the preseason/training camp.

I imagine he'll compete for snaps but the game doesn't come to him like it does Jones.


He's referring to a McGinn article IIRC, that said he looked like a 3rd and Evans some sort of 5th or something. I always forget, I've had it linked because I can never find it more than once here lol.

I missed the 1st round thing, that's some high damn praise!


I know exactly the article he's referring to. It claimed Brice was a first round caliber talent.

Quote:
46. KENTRELL BRICE, S

Brice accepted a $2,000 free-agent signing bonus from the Packers against offers from the Buccaneers, Jaguars and Chiefs. The signing bonus for a late first-round choice such as Kenny Clark was about $5 million. After watching Brice, one scout equated him to a first- or second-round pick. Hes a phenomenal athlete who makes plays, hits hard and seems to have a feel for the game.


Took a second but found it.

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2016/09/08/mcginn-ranking-packers-roster-1-53/90044874/
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packerjmf wrote:
GWH87 wrote:
Somebody take the off season shovel out of Ted's hands & bury him in his own hole.

How can he dig a hole if he's too busy sitting on his hands?
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JBURGE25


Joined: 25 Jan 2012
Posts: 18426
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralFC wrote:
NormSizedMidget wrote:
CentralFC wrote:
JBURGE25 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
HorizontoZenith wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
HorizontoZenith wrote:
Just curious why Josh Jones fell to our second pick if he was thought of so highly by the rest of the NFL. I was hoping I would be able to have low expectations for him, but now I see interceptions and touchdowns and huge plays and Charles Woodson/Nick Collins clone baby Hall of Fame career.


Not sure what you mean? Jones clearly wasn't for everyone. His game sure works with the vision lines he's about to see in Capers system though.

I guess I was just asking what made him not for everyone and what made him fall far enough for us to get him. Since there were about 4 or 5 safeties taken before him in the second round. Or maybe I just thought I read that you said that a lot of teams liked him a lot.


Long story short, this is a system that puts a huge premium on eyes/legs at safety. Playing safety in this system can be hell and elite play speed can get ya out of a ton of crap. One could make a strong case that good field speed matters more at safety in this fit than it does at CB.

I mean, Gunter was a 4.7 starting CB last year and did OK for the most part. This is a very simple CB system and many show better than the numbers. Just not the case at safety. Many ways to skin that cat be it smarts, eyes, or legs. But sound play speed can get ya out of a ton of crap in the backend of this D. Add the vision lanes to the ball with the multiple front and play speed truly is at a high premium here.

The NFL draft is all about finding value. Look for the things you hold at a premium and you'll find value more often than not. There was a bigger premium on Jones in this system than most.
This is the reason why I like Brice so much. Love the speed. I remember reading an article sometime in the winter that he was projected a 3rd round pick by some faction, was skeptical of that but it sure made me go back and watch everything. Would love to know where his head's at though


Actually a first round pick-level talent, evaluators were saying in the preseason/training camp.

I imagine he'll compete for snaps but the game doesn't come to him like it does Jones.


He's referring to a McGinn article IIRC, that said he looked like a 3rd and Evans some sort of 5th or something. I always forget, I've had it linked because I can never find it more than once here lol.

I missed the 1st round thing, that's some high damn praise!


I know exactly the article he's referring to. It claimed Brice was a first round caliber talent.

Quote:
46. KENTRELL BRICE, S

Brice accepted a $2,000 free-agent signing bonus from the Packers against offers from the Buccaneers, Jaguars and Chiefs. The signing bonus for a late first-round choice such as Kenny Clark was about $5 million. After watching Brice, one scout equated him to a first- or second-round pick. Hes a phenomenal athlete who makes plays, hits hard and seems to have a feel for the game.


Took a second but found it.

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2016/09/08/mcginn-ranking-packers-roster-1-53/90044874/
Ill have to look for it, but that was not the article
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JBURGE25 wrote:
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palmy50


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packers might be the best team in the league at safety. Five deep with good damn football players. Future looks bright for both those undrafted rookies from last year in my opinion. Brice was clearly a hair more pro ready coming in. Don't sell that Utah State kid short though. He's gonna be hard to deal with when it slows down for him. Kid can really run and he'll tag ya.
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AlexGreen#20


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
Packers might be the best team in the league at safety. Five deep with good damn football players. Future looks bright for both those undrafted rookies from last year in my opinion. Brice was clearly a hair more pro ready coming in. Don't sell that Utah State kid short though. He's gonna be hard to deal with when it slows down for him. Kid can really run and he'll tag ya.


Just got to get the corner situation figured out.

I have my own opinions on this but I'd like to hear yours. How much of last year's struggles with that group were injury related vs just not being ready or not being very good? And also, how do you feel about that group going into the year?
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palmy50


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
Packers might be the best team in the league at safety. Five deep with good damn football players. Future looks bright for both those undrafted rookies from last year in my opinion. Brice was clearly a hair more pro ready coming in. Don't sell that Utah State kid short though. He's gonna be hard to deal with when it slows down for him. Kid can really run and he'll tag ya.


Just got to get the corner situation figured out.

I have my own opinions on this but I'd like to hear yours. How much of last year's struggles with that group were injury related vs just not being ready or not being very good? And also, how do you feel about that group going into the year?


I personally feel a few things needed to go wrong to create such a disaster.

1) The Shields injury put players in positions they clearly were not ready for. We seen the same thing on offense the year prior when Nelson went down.

2) Peppers was the only healthy edge rusher at times and father time was even playing his part on Peppers. Clay, Perry, and Fack were all beat to hell though. Some hits on the QB still came but very few impact plays here considering the talent/investment.

3) With Shields going down the lack of pure man skills really showed it's ugly face. You can't fix this but hopefully these guys will be in better situations to succeed with House/King now in the stable. Hope so, because there are some good football players in this group even if they fall a hair short on man skills. I'd hate to give up on a talent like Randall for example because they lack the parts to make his game work.
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Pugger


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, at least two other teams (and anybody who signed up for Scott McCloughan's private scouting service) had full access to the Washington Football Team's draft board (at least an early draft thereof), so things like this shouldn't be that surprising.


I'm assuming it's floating around on the internets somewhere?


Yes, he posts regularly on another Packer forum I visit as often as I do here.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vegas492 wrote:
...and this thread is the reason I keep coming back here. Just great stuff from everyone. Special thanks to Palmy for all of his insights. And to everyone else for theirs as well.


Agreed. I learn so much on this site. You guys are a lot more fun to talk football with than my girlfriends. Wink
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JBURGE25


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
Packers might be the best team in the league at safety. Five deep with good damn football players. Future looks bright for both those undrafted rookies from last year in my opinion. Brice was clearly a hair more pro ready coming in. Don't sell that Utah State kid short though. He's gonna be hard to deal with when it slows down for him. Kid can really run and he'll tag ya.


Just got to get the corner situation figured out.

I have my own opinions on this but I'd like to hear yours. How much of last year's struggles with that group were injury related vs just not being ready or not being very good? And also, how do you feel about that group going into the year?


I personally feel a few things needed to go wrong to create such a disaster.

1) The Shields injury put players in positions they clearly were not ready for. We seen the same thing on offense the year prior when Nelson went down.

2) Peppers was the only healthy edge rusher at times and father time was even playing his part on Peppers. Clay, Perry, and Fack were all beat to hell though. Some hits on the QB still came but very few impact plays here considering the talent/investment.

3) With Shields going down the lack of pure man skills really showed it's ugly face. You can't fix this but hopefully these guys will be in better situations to succeed with House/King now in the stable. Hope so, because there are some good football players in this group even if they fall a hair short on man skills. I'd hate to give up on a talent like Randall for example because they lack the parts to make his game work.


This leads to my question to that I meant to ask.

In today's NFL, do you see it as Capers' defense needing specific players to succeed and we are unable to provide/keep the players healthy for it, or is it just a defensive scheme that will always bend? I understand the secondary is predicated on turnovers, but there just seem to be the same weaknesses every year.
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palmy50


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JBURGE25 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
Packers might be the best team in the league at safety. Five deep with good damn football players. Future looks bright for both those undrafted rookies from last year in my opinion. Brice was clearly a hair more pro ready coming in. Don't sell that Utah State kid short though. He's gonna be hard to deal with when it slows down for him. Kid can really run and he'll tag ya.


Just got to get the corner situation figured out.

I have my own opinions on this but I'd like to hear yours. How much of last year's struggles with that group were injury related vs just not being ready or not being very good? And also, how do you feel about that group going into the year?


I personally feel a few things needed to go wrong to create such a disaster.

1) The Shields injury put players in positions they clearly were not ready for. We seen the same thing on offense the year prior when Nelson went down.

2) Peppers was the only healthy edge rusher at times and father time was even playing his part on Peppers. Clay, Perry, and Fack were all beat to hell though. Some hits on the QB still came but very few impact plays here considering the talent/investment.

3) With Shields going down the lack of pure man skills really showed it's ugly face. You can't fix this but hopefully these guys will be in better situations to succeed with House/King now in the stable. Hope so, because there are some good football players in this group even if they fall a hair short on man skills. I'd hate to give up on a talent like Randall for example because they lack the parts to make his game work.


This leads to my question to that I meant to ask.

In today's NFL, do you see it as Capers' defense needing specific players to succeed and we are unable to provide/keep the players healthy for it, or is it just a defensive scheme that will always bend? I understand the secondary is predicated on turnovers, but there just seem to be the same weaknesses every year.


I not gonna get too deep into this one for obvious reasons. I'll just say I FIRMLY believe if you get Capers players he'll build ya one hell of a defense.
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JBURGE25


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
JBURGE25 wrote:
This leads to my question to that I meant to ask.

In today's NFL, do you see it as Capers' defense needing specific players to succeed and we are unable to provide/keep the players healthy for it, or is it just a defensive scheme that will always bend? I understand the secondary is predicated on turnovers, but there just seem to be the same weaknesses every year.


I not gonna get too deep into this one for obvious reasons. I'll just say I FIRMLY believe if you get Capers players he'll build ya one hell of a defense.
I felt like I was reaching Laughing makes it a little annoying, with the amount of picks we have spent on the defense in the last 7 years and watching it sit at an above average at best level. Here's to hoping that changes.

Thanks man
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