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Goldfish's Too Early Draft Rankings 2017 (Browns at 1)
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nugpimpen


Joined: 18 Feb 2006
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Location: 10 Miles South of Cleveland
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
Ah the old "Past Cleveland Drafts sucked so now the current and future ones will suck even though no one in charge now had anything to do with the past"

Love it


GF Great work as usual.

Obviously I'm also high on the Browns draft, but that should be somewhat expected when they came in with the best group of assets.
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to GFW for doing this, i check in almost daily just for this. Always a good read no matter how our opinions may or may not clash. Would love to see others do this
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MrOaktown_56


Joined: 15 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JaguarCrazy2832 wrote:
Thanks to GFW for doing this, i check in almost daily just for this. Always a good read no matter how our opinions may or may not clash. Would love to see others do this


I would be down on some level, but its a big time commitment, ranking 32 teams can be tough, and i haven't watched enough of some of the late round guys to proudly say I'm informed enough to do it.

I might be down to do something like ranking/grading the first 3 rounds, but beyond that would be tough.
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Carr is 22-25,no playoff games, I'd take Flacco over him.To me it seems like Flacco is just where he belongs. Behind the Brady, Roethlisberger,Rivers,Rodgers,Wilson and ahead of Carr,Tannehill,Cousins,Palmer,Dalton,Luck
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goldfishwars


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JaguarCrazy2832 wrote:
Thanks to GFW for doing this, i check in almost daily just for this. Always a good read no matter how our opinions may or may not clash. Would love to see others do this


Thanks man, appreciate you checking in.
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Iamcanadian


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 295
Location: Wallaceburg, Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crickett wrote:
onejayhawk wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
Everybody raves about the Browns having 2 first rounders for next year's draft, but the Browns have had 2 first rounders in 4 of the last 5 drafts, including 3 in this year's draft and what has it gotten them = nothing. Until they get a true franchise QB and get their picks to actually provide solid starters, all the picks in the world are not going to save them.

Giving Cleveland an overall #1 ranking for any draft based on past performance, is a complete joke IMO.

Who is giving Cleveland the #1 ranking based on past performance? Show me just one.

You seem to want to deny them the top spot based on past performance, so I can understand you projecting, but it ain't there. This is a monster draft if they get anything at all from Kizer.

J


I think he meant to write: 'Based on past performance, anyone giving Cleveland the overall #1 ranking is a complete joke IMO'.

However, I completely disagree with that. Yes it's true the Browns did not draft a surefire franchise quarterback. Of course they didn't. There was no surefire franchise quarterback in this draft. But aside from free safety and slot receiver, I think the Browns addressed every need position their team had and did so while getting good or great value with every pick.


Look, I like Cleveland's draft, especially their 3 first rounders, on paper it looks sensational, but just because everybody is saying that Trubisky likely will not be a franchise QB, does necessarily make it true. If Trubisky turns out to be a solid franchise QB, then Cleveland will again have failed to secure a franchise QB.

They have been in solid positions to draft RG111, Wentz and Trubisky and chose to pass on all 3 in favour of Weedon, Manziel and now Kizer. It suggests to me that they are not willing to take a risk to secure a QB no matter how many times taking one later has failed. And it bothers me that people are willing to sack Trubisky's pick while believing that Kizer will be the answer.

I prefer Chicago taking the risk to draft Trubisky, clearly the best QB in this draft even if he flops, because if you want a franchise QB, you have to take risks and Cleveland does not appear to be willing to bite the bullet. Sitting back and drafting Kizer involved little risk for Cleveland even though 32 teams passed on the guy, because he was exposed in the post season as lacking in intangibles and mental toughness.

I, therefore, am not willing to jump all over Cleveland's drafts until it produces a solid franchise QB. IMO, Cleveland wanted Trubisky but decided to wait it out to see if he could be gotten by say trading up with Tennessee and the plan failed miserably. I could certainly be wrong, but either way, I am not impressed when a QB desperate team settles for the 4th best option at the position and a 2nd round talent, remembering that QB's get pushed up a lot because of position, suggesting that Kizer wasn't even rated that high as where he went.

I would not expect past performance to mean a whole lot if a FO has changed, but this FO passed on Wentz last year, and the Owner forced the team to draft Manziel, and he hasn't changed, so I feel past performance is still relative to appraising this team's draft. So excuse me if I remain sceptical of this organization and refuse to reward them for taking zero risks in the draft, yes, the 3 players they got are great, no argument from me, but will it produce a winning season or make Cleveland any closer to being a consistent winner who can compete for championships, my answer is no, worse yet, it might just move them further away from securing a solid franchise QB next year, if these 3 picks enable them to win say 6 games and they do not end up drafting 1,2,3 in the draft where the solid QB's are likely to be drafted by QB desperate teams.
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daineraider


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VanS wrote:
daineraider wrote:
VanS wrote:
Here are the teams I felt had the best drafts.

Top 10 Draft Classes

1. Pittsburgh Steelers - I honestly believe the Steelers have potentially landed one of the best draft classes in modern NFL history. I absolutely loved their first 5 picks. All 5 have the potential to be all-pro/pro-bowl caliber players. Before the draft, I had JuJu Smith-Schuster rated as my #2 ranked WR, Cameron Sutton rated as my #1 ranked CB, James Conner as my #2 ranked RB, and Joshua Dobbs as my #1 ranked QB. To land all 4 of those players who I felt were worthy of being selected in the 1st round as well as TJ Watt who has pro-bowl talent if he can stay healthy is simply amazing. Don't be surprised if these 5 players form the core of a team that competes for multiple super bowls in the next 5-10 years. Beyond the first 5 picks, the Steelers also did a great job late in the draft. Brian Allen and Keion Adams show the physical traits to potentially develop into starting caliber NFL players. And that is honestly the best you can ask for late in the 5th and 7th round. Both guys are great athletes, now its on the coaches to see if they can develop them into decent NFL players.


Shocked Wow. I like Juju and Watt, but goodness.


Every year there are mid-round picks that turn out way better than everyone picked ahead of them.

How would you have reacted in 2015 if I said David Johnson would be the best RB from that class ahead of Todd Gurley and Melvin Gordon? Or how about if I said Dak Prescott was the #1 rated QB in the 2016 draft? Or if I said Jordan Howard was the #2 rated RB in the 2016 draft?

When I did my ratings, I tried my best not to let the outside rankings influence me. All I did was watch the tape, watch the combine, and try to watch interviews on these kids. Once I did all that, I came away loving James Conner, Cam Sutton, and Josh Dobbs.

Who knows I could be wrong on all these guys. But I would rather be wrong going totally with my gut opinion rather than simply regurgitating what everyone else is saying.


I just don't see it in Sutton or Dobbs, but I liked their draft outside of those picks. Not knocking you just a little shocked with a few rankings. You could absolutely be correct with these guys. I like that you aren't just going off of collective rankings. Like is said, I just don't see it with a few of those guys, but that's just me.

FYI, David Johnson was one of my fav players in that draft and I wanted him badly on the Raiders. Not saying he was ranked above those two RBs, but I loved his game. I need to see another year or two out of Dak before I can say how good he is or will be. To no fault of his own he was put in a perfect situation in Dallas and I would like to see a few years of production.
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onejayhawk


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
Look, I like Cleveland's draft, especially their 3 first rounders, on paper it looks sensational, but just because everybody is saying that Trubisky likely will not be a franchise QB, does necessarily make it true. If Trubisky turns out to be a solid franchise QB, then Cleveland will again have failed to secure a franchise QB.

They have been in solid positions to draft RG111, Wentz and Trubisky and chose to pass on all 3 in favour of Weedon, Manziel and now Kizer. It suggests to me that they are not willing to take a risk to secure a QB no matter how many times taking one later has failed. And it bothers me that people are willing to sack Trubisky's pick while believing that Kizer will be the answer.

I prefer Chicago taking the risk to draft Trubisky, clearly the best QB in this draft even if he flops, because if you want a franchise QB, you have to take risks and Cleveland does not appear to be willing to bite the bullet. Sitting back and drafting Kizer involved little risk for Cleveland even though 32 teams passed on the guy, because he was exposed in the post season as lacking in intangibles and mental toughness.

I, therefore, am not willing to jump all over Cleveland's drafts until it produces a solid franchise QB. IMO, Cleveland wanted Trubisky but decided to wait it out to see if he could be gotten by say trading up with Tennessee and the plan failed miserably. I could certainly be wrong, but either way, I am not impressed when a QB desperate team settles for the 4th best option at the position and a 2nd round talent, remembering that QB's get pushed up a lot because of position, suggesting that Kizer wasn't even rated that high as where he went.

I would not expect past performance to mean a whole lot if a FO has changed, but this FO passed on Wentz last year, and the Owner forced the team to draft Manziel, and he hasn't changed, so I feel past performance is still relative to appraising this team's draft. So excuse me if I remain sceptical of this organization and refuse to reward them for taking zero risks in the draft, yes, the 3 players they got are great, no argument from me, but will it produce a winning season or make Cleveland any closer to being a consistent winner who can compete for championships, my answer is no, worse yet, it might just move them further away from securing a solid franchise QB next year, if these 3 picks enable them to win say 6 games and they do not end up drafting 1,2,3 in the draft where the solid QB's are likely to be drafted by QB desperate teams.

We heard all this the first time. It did not make sense then either.

For past practices, you can realistically only look at 2016. Beyond that point a completely different team was in charge. Be skeptical all you want until there is results to evaluate--such as right now.

Has the analytics based approach revolutionized the league? No.
Has it stockpiled an impressive nucleus in two years? Yes, it has.
Is this draft the best draft of the 32 clubs based on information available right now? Absafragginlutely

Don't give me that they took no risks. They passed on Kizer at #25 and again at #29. Their history was to take a QB irrespective of almost any other considerations, eg Manziel. It would have been very much like the old Browns you hate so much to take Trubisky over Garrett. Why do you advocate the failed past?

J
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Iamcanadian


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="onejayhawk"]
Iamcanadian wrote:
Look, I like Cleveland's draft, especially their 3 first rounders, on paper it looks sensational, but just because everybody is saying that Trubisky likely will not be a franchise QB, does necessarily make it true. If Trubisky turns out to be a solid franchise QB, then Cleveland will again have failed to secure a franchise QB.

They have been in solid positions to draft RG111, Wentz and Trubisky and chose to pass on all 3 in favour of Weedon, Manziel and now Kizer. It suggests to me that they are not willing to take a risk to secure a QB no matter how many times taking one later has failed. And it bothers me that people are willing to sack Trubisky's pick while believing that Kizer will be the answer.

I prefer Chicago taking the risk to draft Trubisky, clearly the best QB in this draft even if he flops, because if you want a franchise QB, you have to take risks and Cleveland does not appear to be willing to bite the bullet. Sitting back and drafting Kizer involved little risk for Cleveland even though 32 teams passed on the guy, because he was exposed in the post season as lacking in intangibles and mental toughness.

I, therefore, am not willing to jump all over Cleveland's drafts until it produces a solid franchise QB. IMO, Cleveland wanted Trubisky but decided to wait it out to see if he could be gotten by say trading up with Tennessee and the plan failed miserably. I could certainly be wrong, but either way, I am not impressed when a QB desperate team settles for the 4th best option at the position and a 2nd round talent, remembering that QB's get pushed up a lot because of position, suggesting that Kizer wasn't even rated that high as where he went.

I would not expect past performance to mean a whole lot if a FO has changed, but this FO passed on Wentz last year, and the Owner forced the team to draft Manziel, and he hasn't changed, so I feel past performance is still relative to appraising this team's draft. So excuse me if I remain sceptical of this organization and refuse to reward them for taking zero risks in the draft, yes, the 3 players they got are great, no argument from me, but will it produce a winning season or make Cleveland any closer to being a consistent winner who can compete for championships, my answer is no, worse yet, it might just move them further away from securing a solid franchise QB next year, if these 3 picks enable them to win say 6 games and they do not end up drafting 1,2,3 in the draft where the solid QB's are likely to be drafted by QB desperate teams.

We heard all this the first time. It did not make sense then either.

For past practices, you can realistically only look at 2016. Beyond that point a completely different team was in charge. Be skeptical all you want until there is results to evaluate--such as right now.

Quote:

The owner hasn't changed, he was the one who insisted that they draft Manziel and he replaces FO quickly if they do not win on the field of play.


Has the analytics based approach revolutionized the league? No.
Has it stockpiled an impressive nucleus in two years? Yes, it has.
Is this draft the best draft of the 32 clubs based on information available right now? Absafragginlutely

Quote:
The Browns as you pointed out had a different FO in 2016, so how can you say they used analytics approach for the last 2 drafts. you cannot have it both ways. Yes, they used it in 2016 but the previous FO did not use the same approach in 2015's draft ????


Quote:
What do you judge a draft on, obviously producing a winning team doesn't mean a whole lot to you, because at best, the last 2 drafts will likely produce maybe another 4 win season. So, what has the last 2 drafts done for the Browns, so far, not a whole lot.


Don't give me that they took no risks. They passed on Kizer at #25 and again at #29. Their history was to take a QB irrespective of almost any other considerations, eg Manziel. It would have been very much like the old Browns you hate so much to take Trubisky over Garrett. Why do you advocate the failed past?

They and everybody else passed on Kizer because at best he was a middle of round 2 prospect. QB's get pushed up because of position, so they drafted him a lot higher than he probably deserved. Yeah, that was taking a risk ?????

So, you can say that you judge the Brown's draft on "Is this draft the best draft of the 32 clubs based on information available right now? Absafragginlutely", yet you are prepared to dismiss Trubisky as a failure before he has played a snap. If Trubisky becomes a solid franchise QB, then Chicago, not Cleveland will be the true winners in this draft. Was there risk, yes, certainly, but if it pans out, Cleveland will be left in Chicago's dust till they finally get a franchise QB, franchise QB's are extremely hard to find and it can take a decade or more to find one, they do not grow on trees.

For me, it is similar to the Matt Ryan story. Miami had the 1st pick and passed on Ryan even though they were a QB desperate team, Atlanta took advantage and grabbed him even though he carried a lot of negative baggage about his arm strength. Miami has struggled ever since to reach the playoffs while Atlanta almost won the SB this past season with Ryan as their star.

Come back to me when Cleveland is actually winning games, that's the purpose of the draft, to see which teams can get enough talent to win games, Cleveland consistently passing on potential franchise QB's simply will not get the job done and I am not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. They, under the same owner, failed to take a QB risk in the 2016 draft and they failed to take any real QB risk in the 2017 draft, so excuse me if I remain sceptical and under impressed by this year's draft.
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MSURacerDT55


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Iamcanadian"]
onejayhawk wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
Look, I like Cleveland's draft, especially their 3 first rounders, on paper it looks sensational, but just because everybody is saying that Trubisky likely will not be a franchise QB, does necessarily make it true. If Trubisky turns out to be a solid franchise QB, then Cleveland will again have failed to secure a franchise QB.

They have been in solid positions to draft RG111, Wentz and Trubisky and chose to pass on all 3 in favour of Weedon, Manziel and now Kizer. It suggests to me that they are not willing to take a risk to secure a QB no matter how many times taking one later has failed. And it bothers me that people are willing to sack Trubisky's pick while believing that Kizer will be the answer.

I prefer Chicago taking the risk to draft Trubisky, clearly the best QB in this draft even if he flops, because if you want a franchise QB, you have to take risks and Cleveland does not appear to be willing to bite the bullet. Sitting back and drafting Kizer involved little risk for Cleveland even though 32 teams passed on the guy, because he was exposed in the post season as lacking in intangibles and mental toughness.

I, therefore, am not willing to jump all over Cleveland's drafts until it produces a solid franchise QB. IMO, Cleveland wanted Trubisky but decided to wait it out to see if he could be gotten by say trading up with Tennessee and the plan failed miserably. I could certainly be wrong, but either way, I am not impressed when a QB desperate team settles for the 4th best option at the position and a 2nd round talent, remembering that QB's get pushed up a lot because of position, suggesting that Kizer wasn't even rated that high as where he went.

I would not expect past performance to mean a whole lot if a FO has changed, but this FO passed on Wentz last year, and the Owner forced the team to draft Manziel, and he hasn't changed, so I feel past performance is still relative to appraising this team's draft. So excuse me if I remain sceptical of this organization and refuse to reward them for taking zero risks in the draft, yes, the 3 players they got are great, no argument from me, but will it produce a winning season or make Cleveland any closer to being a consistent winner who can compete for championships, my answer is no, worse yet, it might just move them further away from securing a solid franchise QB next year, if these 3 picks enable them to win say 6 games and they do not end up drafting 1,2,3 in the draft where the solid QB's are likely to be drafted by QB desperate teams.

We heard all this the first time. It did not make sense then either.

For past practices, you can realistically only look at 2016. Beyond that point a completely different team was in charge. Be skeptical all you want until there is results to evaluate--such as right now.

Quote:

The owner hasn't changed, he was the one who insisted that they draft Manziel and he replaces FO quickly if they do not win on the field of play.


Has the analytics based approach revolutionized the league? No.
Has it stockpiled an impressive nucleus in two years? Yes, it has.
Is this draft the best draft of the 32 clubs based on information available right now? Absafragginlutely

Quote:
The Browns as you pointed out had a different FO in 2016, so how can you say they used analytics approach for the last 2 drafts. you cannot have it both ways. Yes, they used it in 2016 but the previous FO did not use the same approach in 2015's draft ????


Quote:
What do you judge a draft on, obviously producing a winning team doesn't mean a whole lot to you, because at best, the last 2 drafts will likely produce maybe another 4 win season. So, what has the last 2 drafts done for the Browns, so far, not a whole lot.


Don't give me that they took no risks. They passed on Kizer at #25 and again at #29. Their history was to take a QB irrespective of almost any other considerations, eg Manziel. It would have been very much like the old Browns you hate so much to take Trubisky over Garrett. Why do you advocate the failed past?

They and everybody else passed on Kizer because at best he was a middle of round 2 prospect. QB's get pushed up because of position, so they drafted him a lot higher than he probably deserved. Yeah, that was taking a risk ?????

So, you can say that you judge the Brown's draft on "Is this draft the best draft of the 32 clubs based on information available right now? Absafragginlutely", yet you are prepared to dismiss Trubisky as a failure before he has played a snap. If Trubisky becomes a solid franchise QB, then Chicago, not Cleveland will be the true winners in this draft. Was there risk, yes, certainly, but if it pans out, Cleveland will be left in Chicago's dust till they finally get a franchise QB, franchise QB's are extremely hard to find and it can take a decade or more to find one, they do not grow on trees.

For me, it is similar to the Matt Ryan story. Miami had the 1st pick and passed on Ryan even though they were a QB desperate team, Atlanta took advantage and grabbed him even though he carried a lot of negative baggage about his arm strength. Miami has struggled ever since to reach the playoffs while Atlanta almost won the SB this past season with Ryan as their star.

Come back to me when Cleveland is actually winning games, that's the purpose of the draft, to see which teams can get enough talent to win games, Cleveland consistently passing on potential franchise QB's simply will not get the job done and I am not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. They, under the same owner, failed to take a QB risk in the 2016 draft and they failed to take any real QB risk in the 2017 draft, so excuse me if I remain sceptical and under impressed by this year's draft.



If grandma had nuts she would be grandpa....


All I hear from this post is hate and if's, "if" its apparent that Kizer isn't the guy, A) We won't be winning which would put us in position to draft a real franchise QB in this draft which is less of a risk than this year QB class and B) if we do win some games and end up picking outside the top 5 then we have the draft capital to move up and draft a franchise guy, or trade for an established starter.

What Trubisky does have zero bearing of our guys, if our guys end up being significant contributors or even stars, its still a good draft regardless, even if Kizer doesn't pan out.
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onejayhawk


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's worse than that. He wants to go the old tried-and-wrong Cleveland route of taking his favorite QB first until they get it right. Since Garrett looks much more like Bruce Smith than Trubisky looks like Troy Aikman, this makes zero sense. On top of that he wants to criticize Browns for NOT screwing it up the old way by claiming they are doing it the old way.

J
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MSURacerDT55


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

onejayhawk wrote:
It's worse than that. He wants to go the old tried-and-wrong Cleveland route of taking his favorite QB first until they get it right. Since Garrett looks much more like Bruce Smith than Trubisky looks like Troy Aikman, this makes zero sense. On top of that he wants to criticize Browns for NOT screwing it up the old way by claiming they are doing it the old way.

J


I can see how that can ruffle some feathers.... Laughing
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MWil23


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my honest assessment of the Browns draft:

They took the best consensus player in the draft in Myles Garrett, who in theory, should be an instant impact player with perennial pro bowl potential. You have to take him here, period. No brainer

Rumors are that the Browns had a trade with the Titans locked up at #5, and it sounds like it was #12 and #33 for #5, where they would trade in front of the Jets for Trubisky. When he went at #2 and allegedly when they tried to trade for Jimmy G, they had to go to "Plan C", which was to trade #12 for Houston's #1 this year and next year. Hue wanted Hooker at #12, but their big board had Watson as the guy that they would have drafted.

Bottom line: If Kizer ends up panning out/Watson does not, then this is a great trade. If Peppers/2018 1st end up being great and Watson is good, then it's a missed opportunity for the Browns (unless Kizer pans out obviously), but not a blown pick altogether. If Watson is legit and both these picks aren't AND Kizer is terrible, then it's a terrible trade. Basically, it's a game of would you rather have Peppers, Kizer, and a future #1 or Watson? The Browns aren't in a position to take one player over three here for such an uncertain prospect, and I'm actually one of the few Watson fans on this site.

Njoku and Peppers are gifted athletes with solid NCAA production, but admittedly are relatively boom or bust. Hopefully at least one of them really BOOMS.

Brantley was a steal in the 6th and they added some nice depth in a few other places.

They really have themselves set up WELL in 2018, with 2 1sts and 3 2nds.

If Kizer isn't there guy, they need to go all in with one/multiple draft picks for Darnold/whomever or get a great free agent ala Jimmy/Cousins.

IMO it's QB or bust for the Browns in 2018 if that guy isn't currently on their roster.
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Crickett


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MWil23 wrote:
They really have themselves set up WELL in 2018, with 2 1sts and 3 2nds.

If Kizer isn't there guy, they need to go all in with one/multiple draft picks for Darnold/whomever or get a great free agent ala Jimmy/Cousins.

IMO it's QB or bust for the Browns in 2018 if that guy isn't currently on their roster.


Add to that, the Browns are going to have somewhere in the range of 90 million in cap room next year (most of which is carry over from this year since they have 50+ million remaining right now) with only Isaiah Crowell, Christian Kirksey and Demario Davis as major free agents.
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MWil23


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crickett wrote:
MWil23 wrote:
They really have themselves set up WELL in 2018, with 2 1sts and 3 2nds.

If Kizer isn't there guy, they need to go all in with one/multiple draft picks for Darnold/whomever or get a great free agent ala Jimmy/Cousins.

IMO it's QB or bust for the Browns in 2018 if that guy isn't currently on their roster.


Add to that, the Browns are going to have somewhere in the range of 90 million in cap room next year (most of which is carry over from this year since they have 50+ million remaining right now) with only Isaiah Crowell, Christian Kirksey and Demario Davis as major free agents.


IMO Kirksey should be priority #1 for them to resign. Crow is in a make/break year and Davis is not going to be back IMO.

Brock will likely be a 2018 cap casualty/for sure cut as well.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="MSURacerDT55"]
Iamcanadian wrote:
onejayhawk wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
Look, I like Cleveland's draft, especially their 3 first rounders, on paper it looks sensational, but just because everybody is saying that Trubisky likely will not be a franchise QB, does necessarily make it true. If Trubisky turns out to be a solid franchise QB, then Cleveland will again have failed to secure a franchise QB.

They have been in solid positions to draft RG111, Wentz and Trubisky and chose to pass on all 3 in favour of Weedon, Manziel and now Kizer. It suggests to me that they are not willing to take a risk to secure a QB no matter how many times taking one later has failed. And it bothers me that people are willing to sack Trubisky's pick while believing that Kizer will be the answer.

I prefer Chicago taking the risk to draft Trubisky, clearly the best QB in this draft even if he flops, because if you want a franchise QB, you have to take risks and Cleveland does not appear to be willing to bite the bullet. Sitting back and drafting Kizer involved little risk for Cleveland even though 32 teams passed on the guy, because he was exposed in the post season as lacking in intangibles and mental toughness.

I, therefore, am not willing to jump all over Cleveland's drafts until it produces a solid franchise QB. IMO, Cleveland wanted Trubisky but decided to wait it out to see if he could be gotten by say trading up with Tennessee and the plan failed miserably. I could certainly be wrong, but either way, I am not impressed when a QB desperate team settles for the 4th best option at the position and a 2nd round talent, remembering that QB's get pushed up a lot because of position, suggesting that Kizer wasn't even rated that high as where he went.

I would not expect past performance to mean a whole lot if a FO has changed, but this FO passed on Wentz last year, and the Owner forced the team to draft Manziel, and he hasn't changed, so I feel past performance is still relative to appraising this team's draft. So excuse me if I remain sceptical of this organization and refuse to reward them for taking zero risks in the draft, yes, the 3 players they got are great, no argument from me, but will it produce a winning season or make Cleveland any closer to being a consistent winner who can compete for championships, my answer is no, worse yet, it might just move them further away from securing a solid franchise QB next year, if these 3 picks enable them to win say 6 games and they do not end up drafting 1,2,3 in the draft where the solid QB's are likely to be drafted by QB desperate teams.

We heard all this the first time. It did not make sense then either.

For past practices, you can realistically only look at 2016. Beyond that point a completely different team was in charge. Be skeptical all you want until there is results to evaluate--such as right now.

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The owner hasn't changed, he was the one who insisted that they draft Manziel and he replaces FO quickly if they do not win on the field of play.


Has the analytics based approach revolutionized the league? No.
Has it stockpiled an impressive nucleus in two years? Yes, it has.
Is this draft the best draft of the 32 clubs based on information available right now? Absafragginlutely

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The Browns as you pointed out had a different FO in 2016, so how can you say they used analytics approach for the last 2 drafts. you cannot have it both ways. Yes, they used it in 2016 but the previous FO did not use the same approach in 2015's draft ????


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What do you judge a draft on, obviously producing a winning team doesn't mean a whole lot to you, because at best, the last 2 drafts will likely produce maybe another 4 win season. So, what has the last 2 drafts done for the Browns, so far, not a whole lot.


Don't give me that they took no risks. They passed on Kizer at #25 and again at #29. Their history was to take a QB irrespective of almost any other considerations, eg Manziel. It would have been very much like the old Browns you hate so much to take Trubisky over Garrett. Why do you advocate the failed past?

They and everybody else passed on Kizer because at best he was a middle of round 2 prospect. QB's get pushed up because of position, so they drafted him a lot higher than he probably deserved. Yeah, that was taking a risk ?????

So, you can say that you judge the Brown's draft on "Is this draft the best draft of the 32 clubs based on information available right now? Absafragginlutely", yet you are prepared to dismiss Trubisky as a failure before he has played a snap. If Trubisky becomes a solid franchise QB, then Chicago, not Cleveland will be the true winners in this draft. Was there risk, yes, certainly, but if it pans out, Cleveland will be left in Chicago's dust till they finally get a franchise QB, franchise QB's are extremely hard to find and it can take a decade or more to find one, they do not grow on trees.

For me, it is similar to the Matt Ryan story. Miami had the 1st pick and passed on Ryan even though they were a QB desperate team, Atlanta took advantage and grabbed him even though he carried a lot of negative baggage about his arm strength. Miami has struggled ever since to reach the playoffs while Atlanta almost won the SB this past season with Ryan as their star.

Come back to me when Cleveland is actually winning games, that's the purpose of the draft, to see which teams can get enough talent to win games, Cleveland consistently passing on potential franchise QB's simply will not get the job done and I am not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. They, under the same owner, failed to take a QB risk in the 2016 draft and they failed to take any real QB risk in the 2017 draft, so excuse me if I remain sceptical and under impressed by this year's draft.



If grandma had nuts she would be grandpa....


All I hear from this post is hate and if's, "if" its apparent that Kizer isn't the guy, A) We won't be winning which would put us in position to draft a real franchise QB in this draft which is less of a risk than this year QB class and B) if we do win some games and end up picking outside the top 5 then we have the draft capital to move up and draft a franchise guy, or trade for an established starter.

It will not matter how much draft capital we have, if the top 3 teams drafting all need a QB as they did in this year's draft, so if we end up drafting out of the top 5, in all likelihood, they can say goodbye to getting one of the top 3 QB's. They will only be assured of getting a top 3 QB if they are a terrible team again next season and their 2017 draft just might prevent them from securing a top 3 pick.

It seems to me that it is you who are depending on if's. It was a great draft if Trubisky does not turnout to be a solid franchise QB, it is a great draft if all 3 guys turnout to be great. It is a great draft if we can use our draft capital to secure a top 2 or 3 position in next years draft. An awful lot of 'if's' there, if the Browns are going to be rebuilt sometime in the near future.

What Trubisky does have zero bearing of our guys, if our guys end up being significant contributors or even stars, its still a good draft regardless, even if Kizer doesn't pan out.


Again, if Trubisky turns out to be a solid franchise QB, then we failed as a team to grab him, so the draft becomes just another lost opportunity, this does have a definite bearing on our draft. To pass up on a franchise QB for positional players who may or may not become significant players in the rebuild of the Browns, is a lost opportunity by any drafting standard.
You are already assuming that Trubisky will be a complete failure in order to justify the Brown's draft and you also want to assume that the Brown's picks will all be significant pros and even all stars. An awful lot of assumptions/ifs in this analysis in order to justify ranking them #1 overall in the 2017 draft. I guess that is why most people believe it takes 5 years to really assess a draft, anything else is just guesswork.

Look, I agree that it is a good draft for the Browns, but I also see problems with the way the Browns are going about their rebuild. I say that NFL teams see the QB position as being key to any rebuild, everything else becomes secondary to that position and in the last few years, our owner has forced his GM to draft Manziel, passed on Wentz, when they had the opportunity to draft him and passed on Trubisky when again, they had the opportunity to draft him.

All I am pointing out is that the Browns have not committed themselves to solving their QB situation at the draft, this is a fact not an assumption or if, and it worries me as a Brown fan. If they solve the QB position in the 2018 draft then all is good, but if they are not able to secure a top 3 pick, then there is zero guarantee that they will not find themselves right back in the 2019 draft in the same boat.
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