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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: West Virginia Occupation: Browns LT
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
Mastercheddaar wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
I have a hunch we play merry go round QBs to not only see what we have in guys, but also to lose games..............or to at least not win too many game. Better to go 3-13 than 6-10.


If Hue does this, without injuries, he needs to be fired on the spot. That is how you destroy a good culture with the team, not build one. Every QB will have to be looking over their shoulder, and the rest of the team will know that if they would do that to the most important position on the team, they will do it to them too. Everyone will be worried about everyone else screwing them over.

It destroyed the team first mentality and promotes a me first mentality.


Amen! You play to win. If Hue was part of this then we deserve to lose every single competitive quality player we have to FA.

that is all

Mastercheddaar


See I dont think Hue is like that.

If he was all about tanking, in that last ravens game, he would of never put McCown in. McCown gave us a punchers chance because of his ability to thrown down hill. If Hue was rolling over, he would of kept Kessler in.


Yeah but when Kessler last threw a pass we were winning. We ended up losing by 3 TDs. The team had 38 total yards in McCown's 5 series. He threw 2 picks, fumbled twice (lost one) and on 16 drop backs McCown accounted for 30 yards.

The offense wasn't doing anything before we put McCown in but we had a 7-6 halftime lead and were still in the game because we didn't turn the ball over. McCowns first possession...interception. Then a -9 yard drive. Then an interception. Then a McCown fumble. Then a 0 yard drive.

McCown always owned the Ravens. Maybe he was in on the tank.
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DizzyDean


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
buno67 wrote:
Mastercheddaar wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
I have a hunch we play merry go round QBs to not only see what we have in guys, but also to lose games..............or to at least not win too many game. Better to go 3-13 than 6-10.


If Hue does this, without injuries, he needs to be fired on the spot. That is how you destroy a good culture with the team, not build one. Every QB will have to be looking over their shoulder, and the rest of the team will know that if they would do that to the most important position on the team, they will do it to them too. Everyone will be worried about everyone else screwing them over.

It destroyed the team first mentality and promotes a me first mentality.


Amen! You play to win. If Hue was part of this then we deserve to lose every single competitive quality player we have to FA.

that is all

Mastercheddaar


See I dont think Hue is like that.

If he was all about tanking, in that last ravens game, he would of never put McCown in. McCown gave us a punchers chance because of his ability to thrown down hill. If Hue was rolling over, he would of kept Kessler in.


Yeah but when Kessler last threw a pass we were winning. We ended up losing by 3 TDs. The team had 38 total yards in McCown's 5 series. He threw 2 picks, fumbled twice (lost one) and on 16 drop backs McCown accounted for 30 yards.

The offense wasn't doing anything before we put McCown in but we had a 7-6 halftime lead and were still in the game because we didn't turn the ball over. McCowns first possession...interception. Then a -9 yard drive. Then an interception. Then a McCown fumble. Then a 0 yard drive.

McCown always owned the Ravens. Maybe he was in on the tank.


I would recommend not overthinking anything. Hue made the call looking for a spark as the team was anemic. It did not work. He tried.

Conspiracy theories are a waste of time.

Jackson is a very competitive guy. None of the 15 losses were intentional from Jackson.
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Thomas5737


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
buno67 wrote:
Mastercheddaar wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
I have a hunch we play merry go round QBs to not only see what we have in guys, but also to lose games..............or to at least not win too many game. Better to go 3-13 than 6-10.


If Hue does this, without injuries, he needs to be fired on the spot. That is how you destroy a good culture with the team, not build one. Every QB will have to be looking over their shoulder, and the rest of the team will know that if they would do that to the most important position on the team, they will do it to them too. Everyone will be worried about everyone else screwing them over.

It destroyed the team first mentality and promotes a me first mentality.


Amen! You play to win. If Hue was part of this then we deserve to lose every single competitive quality player we have to FA.

that is all

Mastercheddaar


See I dont think Hue is like that.

If he was all about tanking, in that last ravens game, he would of never put McCown in. McCown gave us a punchers chance because of his ability to thrown down hill. If Hue was rolling over, he would of kept Kessler in.


Yeah but when Kessler last threw a pass we were winning. We ended up losing by 3 TDs. The team had 38 total yards in McCown's 5 series. He threw 2 picks, fumbled twice (lost one) and on 16 drop backs McCown accounted for 30 yards.

The offense wasn't doing anything before we put McCown in but we had a 7-6 halftime lead and were still in the game because we didn't turn the ball over. McCowns first possession...interception. Then a -9 yard drive. Then an interception. Then a McCown fumble. Then a 0 yard drive.

McCown always owned the Ravens. Maybe he was in on the tank.


I would recommend not overthinking anything. Hue made the call looking for a spark as the team was anemic. It did not work. He tried.

Conspiracy theories are a waste of time.

Jackson is a very competitive guy. None of the 15 losses were intentional from Jackson.


My point was that Hue put in a lesser QB. Whether it was to get a spark or whatever it backfired terribly. I don't think Hue or Josh intentionally threw the game but it was the wrong decision by Hue to pull Kessler as evidenced by the outcome. I think it was a petty move because he wanted Kessler to throw downfield when the offensive line was in shambles. Sure, McCown took the advice and threw some picks and lost 30 yards in sacks. while fumbling twice.

Kessler seemed to have a much better grasp on what was working (very little) that game than our coaching staff.
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DizzyDean


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
buno67 wrote:
Mastercheddaar wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
I have a hunch we play merry go round QBs to not only see what we have in guys, but also to lose games..............or to at least not win too many game. Better to go 3-13 than 6-10.


If Hue does this, without injuries, he needs to be fired on the spot. That is how you destroy a good culture with the team, not build one. Every QB will have to be looking over their shoulder, and the rest of the team will know that if they would do that to the most important position on the team, they will do it to them too. Everyone will be worried about everyone else screwing them over.

It destroyed the team first mentality and promotes a me first mentality.


Amen! You play to win. If Hue was part of this then we deserve to lose every single competitive quality player we have to FA.

that is all

Mastercheddaar


See I dont think Hue is like that.

If he was all about tanking, in that last ravens game, he would of never put McCown in. McCown gave us a punchers chance because of his ability to thrown down hill. If Hue was rolling over, he would of kept Kessler in.


Yeah but when Kessler last threw a pass we were winning. We ended up losing by 3 TDs. The team had 38 total yards in McCown's 5 series. He threw 2 picks, fumbled twice (lost one) and on 16 drop backs McCown accounted for 30 yards.

The offense wasn't doing anything before we put McCown in but we had a 7-6 halftime lead and were still in the game because we didn't turn the ball over. McCowns first possession...interception. Then a -9 yard drive. Then an interception. Then a McCown fumble. Then a 0 yard drive.

McCown always owned the Ravens. Maybe he was in on the tank.


I would recommend not overthinking anything. Hue made the call looking for a spark as the team was anemic. It did not work. He tried.

Conspiracy theories are a waste of time.

Jackson is a very competitive guy. None of the 15 losses were intentional from Jackson.


My point was that Hue put in a lesser QB. Whether it was to get a spark or whatever it backfired terribly. I don't think Hue or Josh intentionally threw the game but it was the wrong decision by Hue to pull Kessler as evidenced by the outcome. I think it was a petty move because he wanted Kessler to throw downfield when the offensive line was in shambles. Sure, McCown took the advice and threw some picks and lost 30 yards in sacks. while fumbling twice.

Kessler seemed to have a much better grasp on what was working (very little) that game than our coaching staff.


Coaches make mistakes, every single one of them, every single game. Its part of it.

That said, I agree with you about Kessler not taking shots, and that is why he was benched. That said, I would not say that meant he had a better grasp of what worked and what did not. To me it was just self preservation in a lost season with multiple concussions.
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Mind Character


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on the draft is one that evaluates each decision relevant to the options available and maximization of value.

In evaluating the early decisions, OJ Howard and Jonathan Allen should not be considered in any criticism of the Browns selection because for 1.) We got Njoku and filled our TE1 need with a similarly rated TE who unlike the wonderful player pro bowl potential OJ Howard, high points the ball and makes catches down the field on tape, and 2.) Gregg Williams defensive player prototype does not view Jonathan Allen as a scheme fit 3-tech. There are some 43s where Allen would've been however.

[b]Therefore, the conversation as many have pointed out comes down to whether it makes sense to give up Malik Hooker for Jabrill Peppers and the potential ability to use the most draft capital (2nd 1st gained in texans trade with the 3 2nds we already have) to move up from what at worst will be the the 10th overall pick after finishing at best 6-10) to secure one of the 4 to 5 franchise caliber QBs (Falk, Rosen, Darnold, Riley Ferguson, Josh Allen) likely (not absolutely) to be available in next years draft.


Malik Hooker was one of my favorite players in the draft, but he's not a QB and next year the stakes are high. So, the decision makes tons of sense and is a very sound decision. There was no way to get Hooker and a future 1st so the later was the right move.

One thing that no one seems to be talking about with the Peppers pick is that out of the next 15 players or so selected after Peppers...it could only be argued imo that David Njoku (who we got anyway), Budda Baker, Reuben Foster, and Dalvin Cook may have been a better selections.
Look at the players that came off the board after the Peppers pick: Takk Mckinley, Tredavious White, Taco Charlton, TJ Watt, Reuben Foster, Ryan Ramczyk, Kevin King, Cam Robinson, Budda Baker, Forrest Lamp, Dalvin Cook, Curtis Samuel, Marcus Williams .

I like a lot of those players a lot a lot, but Peppers was clearly the best player available that matched a position of need. Foster had medical flags in both shoulders on my boi's team; don't know if the Browns medical staff saw it the same. Dalvin cook had medical flags and off field arrests. So, it really only comes down to Budda and Peppers...I saw Budda as a nickel player exclusively and a wonderful pro bowl one at that...not a FS. Peppers is a starting SS with range for days. That decision is an A+.

As to the 52nd pick and the Kizer decision. Again, look at the players on the board selected after that pick (Teez Tabor, Raekwon Mcmillan, dalvin tomlinson, obi melifonwu, zach cunningham, ethan pocic, tanohkpassagnon, chidobe awuzie, josh jones, juju smith schuster), it can only be argued that Obi Melifonwu, Josh Jones, and Chidobe Awuzie could be better selections. I saw Obi as nickel playmaker not a Cover 2 FS. It's likely Gregg Williams and Co. saw the same. Josh Jones was seen by many as more of a SS type than a FS. I saw him as a FS as well, but if the Browns saw him as SS; we already got ours in Peppers. As to passing on Chidobe Awuzie, Cover 2 under defenses like Williams' focus on close to the line pressure and really don't emphasize the corner position b/c the safeties zone closer to the line with one shaded to the boundary protecting the CB weakest at coverage over the top of the WR route. The other safety zones inside the numbers to take away routes over the middle. That safety needs range ability to cover a major portion of the field but as long as the corners can disrupt the route at the line and are physical and can tackle what's in front of them, the defense doesn't need elite corners. So, passing on a corner makes sense.

And for all the Kizer haters, it was well worth the risk/reward equation because Kizer has shown rare skills in pocket movement under pressure, pocket poise, and pinpoint ball placement on big boy throws. Consistency is the issue and whether or not he can lead a team to a winning attitude in the face of adversity.

Every decision made sense. The draft as whole was a major win. The FO avoided the pressure of going QB over Garrett, picked up a potential valuable future asset while selecting 3 impact players and a QB with QB1 traits and upside.

If you're the type that wants to heavily criticize them for not taking Deshaun Watson at 12 like Mel Kiper or for not trading up to take Mahomes top 10 or trading up to #2 for Trubisky with a crazy amount of draft capital...nothing will probably convince you that those types of decision would've been bad for the Browns...so I won't try.
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Last edited by Mind Character on Fri May 05, 2017 2:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 15241
Location: West Virginia Occupation: Browns LT
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
buno67 wrote:
Mastercheddaar wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
I have a hunch we play merry go round QBs to not only see what we have in guys, but also to lose games..............or to at least not win too many game. Better to go 3-13 than 6-10.


If Hue does this, without injuries, he needs to be fired on the spot. That is how you destroy a good culture with the team, not build one. Every QB will have to be looking over their shoulder, and the rest of the team will know that if they would do that to the most important position on the team, they will do it to them too. Everyone will be worried about everyone else screwing them over.

It destroyed the team first mentality and promotes a me first mentality.


Amen! You play to win. If Hue was part of this then we deserve to lose every single competitive quality player we have to FA.

that is all

Mastercheddaar


See I dont think Hue is like that.

If he was all about tanking, in that last ravens game, he would of never put McCown in. McCown gave us a punchers chance because of his ability to thrown down hill. If Hue was rolling over, he would of kept Kessler in.


Yeah but when Kessler last threw a pass we were winning. We ended up losing by 3 TDs. The team had 38 total yards in McCown's 5 series. He threw 2 picks, fumbled twice (lost one) and on 16 drop backs McCown accounted for 30 yards.

The offense wasn't doing anything before we put McCown in but we had a 7-6 halftime lead and were still in the game because we didn't turn the ball over. McCowns first possession...interception. Then a -9 yard drive. Then an interception. Then a McCown fumble. Then a 0 yard drive.

McCown always owned the Ravens. Maybe he was in on the tank.


I would recommend not overthinking anything. Hue made the call looking for a spark as the team was anemic. It did not work. He tried.

Conspiracy theories are a waste of time.

Jackson is a very competitive guy. None of the 15 losses were intentional from Jackson.


My point was that Hue put in a lesser QB. Whether it was to get a spark or whatever it backfired terribly. I don't think Hue or Josh intentionally threw the game but it was the wrong decision by Hue to pull Kessler as evidenced by the outcome. I think it was a petty move because he wanted Kessler to throw downfield when the offensive line was in shambles. Sure, McCown took the advice and threw some picks and lost 30 yards in sacks. while fumbling twice.

Kessler seemed to have a much better grasp on what was working (very little) that game than our coaching staff.


Coaches make mistakes, every single one of them, every single game. Its part of it.

That said, I agree with you about Kessler not taking shots, and that is why he was benched. That said, I would not say that meant he had a better grasp of what worked and what did not. To me it was just self preservation in a lost season with multiple concussions.


I don't think it was self preservation. I think he didn't have time to throw the ball downfield unless he threw into coverage before the receiver could get open like Josh did. That is just a terrible choice for a QB. Down by 2 scores, sure, do whatever it takes to try top put points on the board. He was winning the game, there was no reason to take huge chances. Josh threw to covered receivers downfield and took 3 sacks in 16 drop backs compared to Kessler's 1 in 19.

The Browns had drives of 10 or more yards only 5 times, 4 were by Kessler and the one by McCown he threw an interception on 2nd and 22 after taking a sack. It is hindsight but it is pretty obvious which plan worked better between Kessler's cautious approach and McCown's gunslinger approach.
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hornbybrown


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NateDawg wrote:
Garrett will look good coming around the edge wearing that number 95.


Wasn't that Jamir Millers number? Pretty much the only decent pass rusher we have had since we came back
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candyman93


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKC has an article on Brantley's situation.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/05/browns_caleb_brantleys_attorne.html

It may all be over soon and nothing happens to him.
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Kiwibrown


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

candyman93 wrote:
MKC has an article on Brantley's situation.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/05/browns_caleb_brantleys_attorne.html

It may all be over soon and nothing happens to him.


I wonder if he is sill not a good dude, if his coach tells people to stay away from him.
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candyman93


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiwibrown wrote:
candyman93 wrote:
MKC has an article on Brantley's situation.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/05/browns_caleb_brantleys_attorne.html

It may all be over soon and nothing happens to him.


I wonder if he is sill not a good dude, if his coach tells people to stay away from him.


The coach that bad mouthed him is a drunk [inappropriate/removed] bag who got fired and now coaches for their rival Florida State.
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NateDawg


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hornbybrown wrote:
NateDawg wrote:
Garrett will look good coming around the edge wearing that number 95.


Wasn't that Jamir Millers number? Pretty much the only decent pass rusher we have had since we came back


You are correct. Nice memory on that one.
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NateDawg wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
NateDawg wrote:
Garrett will look good coming around the edge wearing that number 95.


Wasn't that Jamir Millers number? Pretty much the only decent pass rusher we have had since we came back


You are correct. Nice memory on that one.


He was one of my favourites back then along with the goat WR of all time Darrin Chavirinni. I probably butchered the spelling of that.
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hornbybrown wrote:
NateDawg wrote:
Garrett will look good coming around the edge wearing that number 95.


Wasn't that Jamir Millers number? Pretty much the only decent pass rusher we have had since we came back


Brown was a stud DE until injuries derailed his career.
Kruger was a solid pass rusher until the coaches tried to use him more in coverages
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
NateDawg wrote:
Garrett will look good coming around the edge wearing that number 95.


Wasn't that Jamir Millers number? Pretty much the only decent pass rusher we have had since we came back


Brown was a stud DE until injuries derailed his career.
Kruger was a solid pass rusher until the coaches tried to use him more in coverages


That and the fact that he benefitted from having Suggs on the other side in Baltimore and having Sheard on the other side here, when is was all on him, he was trash.
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also liked our draft because I think with a few of our picks, we screwed over the Steelers. They really liked Njoku and was probably going to be their selection at #30 before we moved up to select him, also they were being linked to Kizer and probably were going to select him at 62 (Although I think they could have liked Awuzie as well)
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