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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 69131
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward4HOF wrote:
Have a question for you jrry regarding the differences between Smith-Schuster and Kupp. I know who you like more and that's fair, but with Kupp turning 24 next month, and Schuster not turning 21 until late Nov, so essentially being 3 1/2 years younger, do you feel Juju might have a chance to reach Kupp's 'level' at some point in his career? They are both of similar build--Juju being a 1/2" shorter, yet 10lbs heavier--and both not being 40 'burners', but better than average Cones/Shuttle times--Kupp with admittedly a decidedly distinct advantage, but Juju still being very good for his size--which is why I ask the question.

I didn't have the opportunity to delve as deeply as normal this draft season, but seeing as you have, and have taken a keen eye to the WRs this year, I just wanted your take (informed non-Steeler) on Juju and whether you think he'll progress and be a better '#2' option than Bryant, Coates, or even Hunter, and if he has a chance to be a comparable WR to Kupp at some point.


It's certainly possible. I think both can be very good WRs in their own right. Juju's potential to me is Anquan Boldin or Hines Ward. Obviously, that's likely best case scenario. However, I really like his approach to the game. He knows what he is and knows what he needs to do to win.(he's big, strong, and physical)

If Juju had Kupp's hands, I would extremely high on him. Unfortunately, his hands are only decent. He needs to get stronger at the catch-point. It's certainly possible.

But yea, I like the kid. I think he can develop into a very high-end #2 WR.
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Iamcanadian


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Ward4HOF wrote:
Have a question for you jrry regarding the differences between Smith-Schuster and Kupp. I know who you like more and that's fair, but with Kupp turning 24 next month, and Schuster not turning 21 until late Nov, so essentially being 3 1/2 years younger, do you feel Juju might have a chance to reach Kupp's 'level' at some point in his career? They are both of similar build--Juju being a 1/2" shorter, yet 10lbs heavier--and both not being 40 'burners', but better than average Cones/Shuttle times--Kupp with admittedly a decidedly distinct advantage, but Juju still being very good for his size--which is why I ask the question.

I didn't have the opportunity to delve as deeply as normal this draft season, but seeing as you have, and have taken a keen eye to the WRs this year, I just wanted your take (informed non-Steeler) on Juju and whether you think he'll progress and be a better '#2' option than Bryant, Coates, or even Hunter, and if he has a chance to be a comparable WR to Kupp at some point.


It's certainly possible. I think both can be very good WRs in their own right. Juju's potential to me is Anquan Boldin or Hines Ward. Obviously, that's likely best case scenario. However, I really like his approach to the game. He knows what he is and knows what he needs to do to win.(he's big, strong, and physical)

If Juju had Kupp's hands, I would extremely high on him. Unfortunately, his hands are only decent. He needs to get stronger at the catch-point. It's certainly possible.

But yea, I like the kid. I think he can develop into a very high-end #2 WR.


Couldn't agree more.
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Iamcanadian


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stl4life07 wrote:
MemphisEagles wrote:
My top 3:

Colts-I think they nailed it out of the park with their first three picks, especially the first two. Both Malik Hooker and Quincy Wilson were great values at positions that are big needs. I also like Marlon Mack and Anthony Walker. So they got five players I like without any reaching.

Panthers-I love McCaffrey, and I also really like Samuel. Having both is awesome because theoretically, if both are in the huddle the defense has no idea what is coming. It could be a jumbo set, a five wide, something in between. One back set with McCaffrey in the backfield and Samuel in the slot or vice versa. Then I like Moton and Elder.

Browns-I like all three dline men they got, and I like all three first rounders. So that's five players I like because Garret falls in both categories. Kizer is meh in my books but he's worth the risk in the late second.


Worst:

Giants-Not even being a hater because the Skins barely missed my top drafts. But I don't love anyone they drafted. Engram was a reach. Davis Webb is the only guy I like, so I guess a bad draft is worth a future QB if that's how it plays out.


Saints-I think Cooks for Ramcyzk is a fail. The only player they got I like is Kamara, and they didn't address pass rusher in a good draft until the seventh.

Chiefs-Not a Mahomes guy, so I hated that trade up. Then the only guy they took I like is Jehu Chesson.


I think its unfair to just say straight up Cooks for Ramcyzk. At least wait a few years to see how Ramcyzk pans out because Cooks already is established to some degree. Any pick the Saints made with the pick they got from Cooks would be a failure now because they are all unknown NFL prospects. Cooks had 3 seasons worth of success. The only way I could say the Saints fail is if the rumors were true that the Titans offered the 18th overall pick to the Saints for Cooks but the Saints turned it down. By turning it down they essentially missed out on Reuben Foster. They wanted Foster at 32 but the Niners jumped them at pick 31. No way the Niners jump them at pick 17 had the Saints traded Cooks to the Titans for pick 18. I overall liked what the Saints did because from what I heard, they wanted Mahomes at 11 and Foster at 32. Had they drafted those guys with taking Kamara in the 2nd round, I wouldve been thinking they passed on alot of talented cornerbacks and didnt get any talented pass rushers. So in theory, what they Saints wasnt able to do made their draft look good. Lattimore and Foster wouldve been great, but Lattimore and Ramcyzk is still very impressive to me.

As for the Chiefs, you might not be a Mahomes guy but I trust Andy Reid when it comes to QBs. Seems like every QB he has touched turned into gold. I didnt trust Mahomes in just any situation but in KC i love him there. Obviously Alex Smith cant get KC over the hump in terms of being serious Superbowl contenders. Yes KC could win the AFC West. Yes they could win a playoff game, but as far as winning the AFC Championship and going to the Superbowl and possibly winning it, no they wont do it with Alex Smith. Andy Reid knows it and thats why he traded up for Mahomes. I think Mahomes gives KC a better chance to get over that hump in the future than Smith does. I have no problem with that so thats why I really like what KC did from that standpoint.


I fully agree, if Mahomes is ever going to be a franchise QB, he has the perfect HC to get him there. Reid is a proven QB developer and you really have to respect the fact that they drafted Mahomes, it had to have Reid's approval.
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Iamcanadian


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stl4life07 wrote:
ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
No I agree with you on everything you said but I was just pointing out that the past can't be erased in memory.
Maybe not for fans, but it is only one data point in a whole lot of data points that make up an evaluation of a draft. To this regime, the Johnny Manziel pick or Julio Jones trade is not any more relevant than Blaine Gabbert pick or the Jared Goff trade.

And the only relevance there is that it just provides a data point for what the market is. Beyond that, it has no basis in the Browns' decision making nor should it have any basis in our evaluation of their performance.

stl4life07 wrote:
The new regime obviously has a plan but my question still stands about the Browns approach at QB. 2 years in a row they coveted a guy and 2 years in a row the didn't get the guy and settled for another one. Now it can work at other positions but at QB it's vital that a team don't screw it up.
Welcome to the Nerd Football League.

If the Browns are operating like how I think they are, they done make it a binary "yes, we like him" or "no, we don't like him" decision. They put a price on what Mitch is worth. They put a price on what Goff was worth. They were outbid both times. Doesn't mean they didn't like them, they just didn't like them enough to justify the cost.

Side note: This is a market inefficiency. On Friday morning after the draft, Dan Patrick was talking about the Bears and his thoughts were basically, "well if you think he's the guy or your (TM) "franchise QB", who cares what you paid?" That's stupid. You should always care what you pay for a guy. If you are a GM who thinks Mitch Trubisky is such a good prospect that it doesn't matter what you pay to acquire him, you haven't evaluated the odds that he busts correctly and you're probably not good at your job.

stl4life07 wrote:
Why you think Jerry Jones said he regret not trading up to get Lynch after Day 1 of last year draft? He thought highly of Lynch and knew with Romo injury issues, he needed a long term answer and thought Lynch would be the answer but he failed to go get him. Now the Cowboys were fortunate that Prescott panned out when they settled for him later in the draft. So if Kessler or Kizer ends up working out then the QBs the Browns settled for after missing the QBs they coveted the past two drafts, then the Browns will come out like bandits with all these trades but we will just have to wait and see.
There is no version of "if, then" that is required to validate what the Browns are doing. We don't have access to a time machine, but we do have access to a whole lot of previous data which says they've come out way ahead on value.

They might bust, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that the decision makers are doing a good job with the cards they are dealt.


I agree with what you are saying but again my question still remains, what are the Browns doing at QB? If I said that Niners are waiting to see what might happen with Cousins in 2018 and they are rebuilding the defense right now. If I said the Jets are seeing what they have in Heckenberg and Petty. Like we sort of have a clue what those teams are trying to do as far a the QB position goes. The only data, if you will, that I know about the Browns was last year they signed RG3 and wanted Goff, drafted Kessler, didn't trade McCown. This season they didn't resign McCown, traded for Osweiller with no plans to keep, cut RG3, tried hard to get Garoppolo but failed, wanted Trubisky, drafted Kizer. All this activity at the QB position just in two offseasons. I'm not even a Browns fan and find that frustrating. I know all about it being a Rams fan and going through the same thing in recent memory, at least the Rams as an organization came together on getting Goff and even though we know no more now than we did last season just based on poor coaching staff around him up help ease him into his rookie season, but at least there is no looming questions about what the Rams will do at QB. Now it's about getting the right coaching staff to help develop Goff and putting the right players around him to help him succeed and that's what the Rams did this offseason. The Browns are still trying to figure out the QB position and it's not like they don't have good weapons on offense. Last year they had Coleman, Barnidge, Crowell, Pryor, Johnson, and a solid oline. This year they lost Pryor but Britt is a nice pick up as far as talent goes, Njoku is talented even though I don't see why the cut Barnidge. So it's still about figuring the QB situation out for the Browns. That's all I'm trying to say.


I could not agree more. Until the Browns find a franchise QB, all the picks in the world will not make them a serious consistent contender.

The Browns have had 20 years already looking for a franchise QB with zero luck or basically a terrible owner and FO.

You need to be extremely lucky to find a franchise QB, Washington gave up 3 firsts to draft RG111, outbidding the Browns who had an excess of picks to offer. Picks never automatically = a franchise QB.

I believe the Browns drafted pretty well, but in Kizer and Kessler, they have squat and that isn't going to change. They are putting all their eggs in one basket, praying they can secure a franchise QB in next year's draft, but to guarantee that, they have to be drafting no higher than #2 overall. If they are drafting higher than #2, then the odds of securing a franchise QB in the draft become miserable, because in all likelihood, the teams drafting #1 and #2 will be QB desperate teams and no amount of picks will entice them to pass on a potential franchise QB and the Browns will be back again the following year, no better off and probably drafting even higher. This is how franchises can remain mediocre for anywhere between 20 to 50 years.

I am a Brown's fan and am praying I am dead wrong and that a franchise QB either develops or just falls into their lap, but I am not holding my breath.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
No I agree with you on everything you said but I was just pointing out that the past can't be erased in memory.
Maybe not for fans, but it is only one data point in a whole lot of data points that make up an evaluation of a draft. To this regime, the Johnny Manziel pick or Julio Jones trade is not any more relevant than Blaine Gabbert pick or the Jared Goff trade.

And the only relevance there is that it just provides a data point for what the market is. Beyond that, it has no basis in the Browns' decision making nor should it have any basis in our evaluation of their performance.

stl4life07 wrote:
The new regime obviously has a plan but my question still stands about the Browns approach at QB. 2 years in a row they coveted a guy and 2 years in a row the didn't get the guy and settled for another one. Now it can work at other positions but at QB it's vital that a team don't screw it up.
Welcome to the Nerd Football League.

If the Browns are operating like how I think they are, they done make it a binary "yes, we like him" or "no, we don't like him" decision. They put a price on what Mitch is worth. They put a price on what Goff was worth. They were outbid both times. Doesn't mean they didn't like them, they just didn't like them enough to justify the cost.

Side note: This is a market inefficiency. On Friday morning after the draft, Dan Patrick was talking about the Bears and his thoughts were basically, "well if you think he's the guy or your (TM) "franchise QB", who cares what you paid?" That's stupid. You should always care what you pay for a guy. If you are a GM who thinks Mitch Trubisky is such a good prospect that it doesn't matter what you pay to acquire him, you haven't evaluated the odds that he busts correctly and you're probably not good at your job.

stl4life07 wrote:
Why you think Jerry Jones said he regret not trading up to get Lynch after Day 1 of last year draft? He thought highly of Lynch and knew with Romo injury issues, he needed a long term answer and thought Lynch would be the answer but he failed to go get him. Now the Cowboys were fortunate that Prescott panned out when they settled for him later in the draft. So if Kessler or Kizer ends up working out then the QBs the Browns settled for after missing the QBs they coveted the past two drafts, then the Browns will come out like bandits with all these trades but we will just have to wait and see.
There is no version of "if, then" that is required to validate what the Browns are doing. We don't have access to a time machine, but we do have access to a whole lot of previous data which says they've come out way ahead on value.

They might bust, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that the decision makers are doing a good job with the cards they are dealt.


I agree with what you are saying but again my question still remains, what are the Browns doing at QB? If I said that Niners are waiting to see what might happen with Cousins in 2018 and they are rebuilding the defense right now. If I said the Jets are seeing what they have in Heckenberg and Petty. Like we sort of have a clue what those teams are trying to do as far a the QB position goes. The only data, if you will, that I know about the Browns was last year they signed RG3 and wanted Goff, drafted Kessler, didn't trade McCown. This season they didn't resign McCown, traded for Osweiller with no plans to keep, cut RG3, tried hard to get Garoppolo but failed, wanted Trubisky, drafted Kizer. All this activity at the QB position just in two offseasons. I'm not even a Browns fan and find that frustrating. I know all about it being a Rams fan and going through the same thing in recent memory, at least the Rams as an organization came together on getting Goff and even though we know no more now than we did last season just based on poor coaching staff around him up help ease him into his rookie season, but at least there is no looming questions about what the Rams will do at QB. Now it's about getting the right coaching staff to help develop Goff and putting the right players around him to help him succeed and that's what the Rams did this offseason. The Browns are still trying to figure out the QB position and it's not like they don't have good weapons on offense. Last year they had Coleman, Barnidge, Crowell, Pryor, Johnson, and a solid oline. This year they lost Pryor but Britt is a nice pick up as far as talent goes, Njoku is talented even though I don't see why the cut Barnidge. So it's still about figuring the QB situation out for the Browns. That's all I'm trying to say.


I could not agree more. Until the Browns find a franchise QB, all the picks in the world will not make them a serious consistent contender.

The Browns have had 20 years already looking for a franchise QB with zero luck or basically a terrible owner and FO.

You need to be extremely lucky to find a franchise QB, Washington gave up 3 firsts to draft RG111, outbidding the Browns who had an excess of picks to offer. Picks never automatically = a franchise QB.

I believe the Browns drafted pretty well, but in Kizer and Kessler, they have squat and that isn't going to change. They are putting all their eggs in one basket, praying they can secure a franchise QB in next year's draft, but to guarantee that, they have to be drafting no higher than #2 overall. If they are drafting higher than #2, then the odds of securing a franchise QB in the draft become miserable, because in all likelihood, the teams drafting #1 and #2 will be QB desperate teams and no amount of picks will entice them to pass on a potential franchise QB and the Browns will be back again the following year, no better off and probably drafting even higher. This is how franchises can remain mediocre for anywhere between 20 to 50 years.

I am a Brown's fan and am praying I am dead wrong and that a franchise QB either develops or just falls into their lap, but I am not holding my breath.


You're a Browns fan?

Which owner are you talking about? Jimmy, Randy or Al?

It was widely reported that the Browns offered more for the #2 pick than the Redskins did. A higher 1st round pick and a second 1st round pick along with a 2nd and a future 1st. The Rams took #6, a 2nd, and 2 future 1sts. I believe Holmgren was right when he said no offer would have been good enough to have Fisher trade with the Browns instead of Shanahan. I was happy we didn't do the deal then and it appears that would have been a bad move.

The Browns didn't select Kizer hoping to get a QB in next years draft, they selected him hoping he was the real deal. I still like Kessler, he is a good QB he just has a subpar arm. If you build a great team you can win without a great QB. The Broncos did. The Chiefs are a top AFC team with a QB that doesn't throw downfield.

Kessler had more air yards per attempt than many QBs such as Carr, Wentz, Eli, Flacco, Stafford etc... There is a chance he is the guy. There is also a chance Kizer is. There is also a chance that Wentz, RGIII and whoever else you think they should have acquired aren't.
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baconrad3


Joined: 27 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stl4life07 wrote:
MemphisEagles wrote:
My top 3:

Colts-I think they nailed it out of the park with their first three picks, especially the first two. Both Malik Hooker and Quincy Wilson were great values at positions that are big needs. I also like Marlon Mack and Anthony Walker. So they got five players I like without any reaching.

Panthers-I love McCaffrey, and I also really like Samuel. Having both is awesome because theoretically, if both are in the huddle the defense has no idea what is coming. It could be a jumbo set, a five wide, something in between. One back set with McCaffrey in the backfield and Samuel in the slot or vice versa. Then I like Moton and Elder.

Browns-I like all three dline men they got, and I like all three first rounders. So that's five players I like because Garret falls in both categories. Kizer is meh in my books but he's worth the risk in the late second.


Worst:

Giants-Not even being a hater because the Skins barely missed my top drafts. But I don't love anyone they drafted. Engram was a reach. Davis Webb is the only guy I like, so I guess a bad draft is worth a future QB if that's how it plays out.


Saints-I think Cooks for Ramcyzk is a fail. The only player they got I like is Kamara, and they didn't address pass rusher in a good draft until the seventh.

Chiefs-Not a Mahomes guy, so I hated that trade up. Then the only guy they took I like is Jehu Chesson.


I think its unfair to just say straight up Cooks for Ramcyzk. At least wait a few years to see how Ramcyzk pans out because Cooks already is established to some degree. Any pick the Saints made with the pick they got from Cooks would be a failure now because they are all unknown NFL prospects. Cooks had 3 seasons worth of success. The only way I could say the Saints fail is if the rumors were true that the Titans offered the 18th overall pick to the Saints for Cooks but the Saints turned it down. By turning it down they essentially missed out on Reuben Foster. They wanted Foster at 32 but the Niners jumped them at pick 31. No way the Niners jump them at pick 17 had the Saints traded Cooks to the Titans for pick 18. I overall liked what the Saints did because from what I heard, they wanted Mahomes at 11 and Foster at 32. Had they drafted those guys with taking Kamara in the 2nd round, I wouldve been thinking they passed on alot of talented cornerbacks and didnt get any talented pass rushers. So in theory, what they Saints wasnt able to do made their draft look good. Lattimore and Foster wouldve been great, but Lattimore and Ramcyzk is still very impressive to me.

As for the Chiefs, you might not be a Mahomes guy but I trust Andy Reid when it comes to QBs. Seems like every QB he has touched turned into gold. I didnt trust Mahomes in just any situation but in KC i love him there. Obviously Alex Smith cant get KC over the hump in terms of being serious Superbowl contenders. Yes KC could win the AFC West. Yes they could win a playoff game, but as far as winning the AFC Championship and going to the Superbowl and possibly winning it, no they wont do it with Alex Smith. Andy Reid knows it and thats why he traded up for Mahomes. I think Mahomes gives KC a better chance to get over that hump in the future than Smith does. I have no problem with that so thats why I really like what KC did from that standpoint.



I love Andy but uhm do you not remember Kevin Kolb?


Andy Reid doesn't have this history of being able to draft and develop QBs like some people think...



And I think Mahomes ends up being labeled as big of a bust as guys like Locker, Ponder, Gabbert, etc.


Teams fell in love with his arm and suddenly he's some franchise QB worthy of a top 15 pick...



He has bust written all over him honestly. How isn't this as clear to everyone else as it is to me??? The guy really has no idea how to actually PLAY quarterback. Sure, he can throw a football. But he lacks the mental capacity to be a successful pro QB.


First..He played in an incredibly QB friendly offense at TT which has a history of hindering it's quarterbacks abilities​ to adapt to NFL style offenses.

His footwork is poor and his pocket presence is pretty bad as well. He isn't quick enough or fast enough to elude NFL defenders in the pocket.


Maybe if he were a great athlete, you could argue that it would help make up for his poor quarterback IQ. But he was maybe average in almost every athletic category in the combine among QBs. He isn't fast on tape either.

And the worst thing to me is when I heard him talking about how in college he would, without even seeing the defense, decide right in the huddle "Im gonna take off on this play".
College QBs like Mahomes who have that kind of mentality coming into the pros really are tough to coach and develop. It's hard to completely rewire one's brain like that. Not saying it can't be done....

But considering that plus the gun-slinging mentality...never showing in college that he can even go though multiple reads or make quick and smart decisions....And everything else I said....I just can't see this guy ever being even a decent starter no matter where he goes
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stl4life07


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

baconrad3 wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
MemphisEagles wrote:
My top 3:

Colts-I think they nailed it out of the park with their first three picks, especially the first two. Both Malik Hooker and Quincy Wilson were great values at positions that are big needs. I also like Marlon Mack and Anthony Walker. So they got five players I like without any reaching.

Panthers-I love McCaffrey, and I also really like Samuel. Having both is awesome because theoretically, if both are in the huddle the defense has no idea what is coming. It could be a jumbo set, a five wide, something in between. One back set with McCaffrey in the backfield and Samuel in the slot or vice versa. Then I like Moton and Elder.

Browns-I like all three dline men they got, and I like all three first rounders. So that's five players I like because Garret falls in both categories. Kizer is meh in my books but he's worth the risk in the late second.


Worst:

Giants-Not even being a hater because the Skins barely missed my top drafts. But I don't love anyone they drafted. Engram was a reach. Davis Webb is the only guy I like, so I guess a bad draft is worth a future QB if that's how it plays out.


Saints-I think Cooks for Ramcyzk is a fail. The only player they got I like is Kamara, and they didn't address pass rusher in a good draft until the seventh.

Chiefs-Not a Mahomes guy, so I hated that trade up. Then the only guy they took I like is Jehu Chesson.


I think its unfair to just say straight up Cooks for Ramcyzk. At least wait a few years to see how Ramcyzk pans out because Cooks already is established to some degree. Any pick the Saints made with the pick they got from Cooks would be a failure now because they are all unknown NFL prospects. Cooks had 3 seasons worth of success. The only way I could say the Saints fail is if the rumors were true that the Titans offered the 18th overall pick to the Saints for Cooks but the Saints turned it down. By turning it down they essentially missed out on Reuben Foster. They wanted Foster at 32 but the Niners jumped them at pick 31. No way the Niners jump them at pick 17 had the Saints traded Cooks to the Titans for pick 18. I overall liked what the Saints did because from what I heard, they wanted Mahomes at 11 and Foster at 32. Had they drafted those guys with taking Kamara in the 2nd round, I wouldve been thinking they passed on alot of talented cornerbacks and didnt get any talented pass rushers. So in theory, what they Saints wasnt able to do made their draft look good. Lattimore and Foster wouldve been great, but Lattimore and Ramcyzk is still very impressive to me.

As for the Chiefs, you might not be a Mahomes guy but I trust Andy Reid when it comes to QBs. Seems like every QB he has touched turned into gold. I didnt trust Mahomes in just any situation but in KC i love him there. Obviously Alex Smith cant get KC over the hump in terms of being serious Superbowl contenders. Yes KC could win the AFC West. Yes they could win a playoff game, but as far as winning the AFC Championship and going to the Superbowl and possibly winning it, no they wont do it with Alex Smith. Andy Reid knows it and thats why he traded up for Mahomes. I think Mahomes gives KC a better chance to get over that hump in the future than Smith does. I have no problem with that so thats why I really like what KC did from that standpoint.



I love Andy but uhm do you not remember Kevin Kolb?


Andy Reid doesn't have this history of being able to draft and develop QBs like some people think...



And I think Mahomes ends up being labeled as big of a bust as guys like Locker, Ponder, Gabbert, etc.


Teams fell in love with his arm and suddenly he's some franchise QB worthy of a top 15 pick...



He has bust written all over him honestly. How isn't this as clear to everyone else as it is to me??? The guy really has no idea how to actually PLAY quarterback. Sure, he can throw a football. But he lacks the mental capacity to be a successful pro QB.


First..He played in an incredibly QB friendly offense at TT which has a history of hindering it's quarterbacks abilities​ to adapt to NFL style offenses.

His footwork is poor and his pocket presence is pretty bad as well. He isn't quick enough or fast enough to elude NFL defenders in the pocket.


Maybe if he were a great athlete, you could argue that it would help make up for his poor quarterback IQ. But he was maybe average in almost every athletic category in the combine among QBs. He isn't fast on tape either.

And the worst thing to me is when I heard him talking about how in college he would, without even seeing the defense, decide right in the huddle "Im gonna take off on this play".
College QBs like Mahomes who have that kind of mentality coming into the pros really are tough to coach and develop. It's hard to completely rewire one's brain like that. Not saying it can't be done....

But considering that plus the gun-slinging mentality...never showing in college that he can even go though multiple reads or make quick and smart decisions....And everything else I said....I just can't see this guy ever being even a decent starter no matter where he goes


I remember Kolb and you have a point about him. My thing is that there are too many QBs that Reid had success with rather you say he developed them or they just produced because of the system, they just looked better with a Reid coached team than they did on any other team.

Not all three guys (Trubisky, Mahomes, Watson) will all succeed. I believe history shows that. I think I will bet my money that Mahomes has a great chance to be one of them as long as he on a Reid coached team. Now if he somehow goes to another team down the road, maybe he fails but I dont think Reid will allow him to play reckless like at Texas Tech. Plus like I dont hold playing at Tech Texas against him. That team had no defense, lacked playmakers on offense. Mahomes felt like he had to everything just to make Tech Texas have a shot to win. Any player put in that situation looks bad. I have Drew Brees with the Saints go away from proper fundamentals and make bad decisions trying to make a play because he had to score to keep up with his opponent because the Saints defense was giving up points and Brees was constantly under pressure because the offensive line was getting dominated.

I think Mahomes is now on a better team in KC than he was in Texas Tech, he will get taught those proper techniques but like you said, he has an arm. What you are talking about can be taught, but you cant teach his arm talent. Only time will tell who is right about about Mahomes, but Im just saying he is in the right situation with Reid in KC.
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Ward4HOF


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Ward4HOF wrote:
Have a question for you jrry regarding the differences between Smith-Schuster and Kupp. I know who you like more and that's fair, but with Kupp turning 24 next month, and Schuster not turning 21 until late Nov, so essentially being 3 1/2 years younger, do you feel Juju might have a chance to reach Kupp's 'level' at some point in his career? They are both of similar build--Juju being a 1/2" shorter, yet 10lbs heavier--and both not being 40 'burners', but better than average Cones/Shuttle times--Kupp with admittedly a decidedly distinct advantage, but Juju still being very good for his size--which is why I ask the question.

I didn't have the opportunity to delve as deeply as normal this draft season, but seeing as you have, and have taken a keen eye to the WRs this year, I just wanted your take (informed non-Steeler) on Juju and whether you think he'll progress and be a better '#2' option than Bryant, Coates, or even Hunter, and if he has a chance to be a comparable WR to Kupp at some point.


It's certainly possible. I think both can be very good WRs in their own right. Juju's potential to me is Anquan Boldin or Hines Ward. Obviously, that's likely best case scenario. However, I really like his approach to the game. He knows what he is and knows what he needs to do to win.(he's big, strong, and physical)

If Juju had Kupp's hands, I would extremely high on him. Unfortunately, his hands are only decent. He needs to get stronger at the catch-point. It's certainly possible.

But yea, I like the kid. I think he can develop into a very high-end #2 WR.


Thanks. And I've seen a few 'analysts' reports about Kupp being highly underrated, and had his speed only been just .1 sec faster, he likely would've been a 1st Rd lock, so yeah, I think Kupp was the right call for you all; Goff needs sure handed WRs that can find the softs spots in zone coverage, yet also has excellent route-running capabilities overall--a guy with size and strength, to boot. Kupp was just what the Dr. ordered...almost a WR-TE tweener. I don't mean that in skillset, necessarily; I just mean what Kupp can bring to the offense--I think he can perform aspects of the TE role if needed, even if he isn't really anything like a TE. Not sure that makes sense, but anyway...Good Pick!
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DraftHobbyist


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Ward4HOF wrote:
Have a question for you jrry regarding the differences between Smith-Schuster and Kupp. I know who you like more and that's fair, but with Kupp turning 24 next month, and Schuster not turning 21 until late Nov, so essentially being 3 1/2 years younger, do you feel Juju might have a chance to reach Kupp's 'level' at some point in his career? They are both of similar build--Juju being a 1/2" shorter, yet 10lbs heavier--and both not being 40 'burners', but better than average Cones/Shuttle times--Kupp with admittedly a decidedly distinct advantage, but Juju still being very good for his size--which is why I ask the question.

I didn't have the opportunity to delve as deeply as normal this draft season, but seeing as you have, and have taken a keen eye to the WRs this year, I just wanted your take (informed non-Steeler) on Juju and whether you think he'll progress and be a better '#2' option than Bryant, Coates, or even Hunter, and if he has a chance to be a comparable WR to Kupp at some point.


It's certainly possible. I think both can be very good WRs in their own right. Juju's potential to me is Anquan Boldin or Hines Ward. Obviously, that's likely best case scenario. However, I really like his approach to the game. He knows what he is and knows what he needs to do to win.(he's big, strong, and physical)

If Juju had Kupp's hands, I would extremely high on him. Unfortunately, his hands are only decent. He needs to get stronger at the catch-point. It's certainly possible.

But yea, I like the kid. I think he can develop into a very high-end #2 WR.


Smith-Schuter's hands were a huge problem with me. By the sounds of it, I'm even lower on his hands than you, because I wouldn't even call them average. If he can get better hands and fix his drops, I do think he has the potential to be a really good WR, but I'm not confident that he can fix his hands at all. I wasn't exactly a fan of his blocking, either, and I thought he'd test better athletically than he did, but it is what it is.

As a Packers fan, Smith-Schuster is pretty close to what the Packers tend to look for with the good bench and the 4.5 40 speed which hurts their stock a bit but is still plenty fast to get open with good route running. The main thing for me is that I'm glad he went to a team that has a good QB, because he needs a good QB to succeed.
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DraftHobbyist


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
DraftHobbyist wrote:
I think we have very different Draft processes which is making this conversation difficult, because I'm pretty sure that you aren't interpreting what I'm saying as I'm intending. I think you are in a disagreement with my level of competition criticism because you think I'm saying that Kupp won't translate to the NFL, but that's not what I'm saying necessarily. For me, it's about risk, and because he didn't play in a power conference, or even in the FBS, there is added risk. It's a yellow flag for me. He did play in the FCS over DII or DIII, so he gets credit for that at least.

Also, I like to use a combination of considerations. I watch the film, consider the athletic testing, consider production, etc. So when I'm considering production, I'm adding that yellow flag of FCS play because I'm humble enough to realize that it's harder to judge FCS players than Power 5 conference players.

I mean, it's not like this "don't attack Kupp for level of competition" argument is your own. Many people try to make this argument when they've determined they like him. So lets get real about this FBS competition argument: The FBS competition he played sucked. Washington St was 50th in ppg allowed, and they were 112th in passing ypg allowed. Washington St is the only FBS team Kupp played his Senior season.

So now lets go to 2015. He played against Oregon and Northern Illinois. Oregon was 126th in passing ypg allowed, and Northern Illinois was 91st. Northern Illinois was 72nd-73rd in ppg allowed, and Oregon was 116th. These are the only 2 FBS teams he played in 2015.

2014. Washington was the only FBS team he played. Washington was 50th in ppg allowed, and 68th in passing ypg allowed.

2013. Oregon St and Toledo were the two teams. Oregon St was 94th in passing ypg allowed, and Toledo was 126th. Oregon St was 98th in ppg allowed, and Toledo was 92nd-93rd.

Total career FBS passing Defenses played: 94, 126 / 68 / 126, 91 / 112.
Total career FBS scoring Defenses played: 98, 92-93 / 50 / 116, 72-73 / 50.

These are the FBS Defenses that have you so confident?

And then you threw on the Senior Bowl. Using the Senior Bowl to show talent is like using the Spring Game in college. Sure, it's not a bad thing to shine at the Senior Bowl, but it's a glorified practice intended to improve players rather than showcase them. Most of the best players don't even attend.

So yes, there are serious concerns about level of competition and translation here, in terms of probabilities of what is likely to translate and what is not likely to translate.


No, there aren't concerns. You wouldn't have bothered to do any of this with a guy who played in the Big 12 or Pac-12. The "concerns" over competition are purely surface level. He eviscerated 4 Pac-12 teams during his career. All 4 Pac-12 teams went to Bowl games. He beat guys on two of the four Pac-12 teams who are playing in the NFL or will be soon.(Steven Nelson, Ryan Murphy, Marcus Peters, Budda Baker, and Kevin King)

He then went to the Senior Bowl and dominated the practice week (giving Rasul Douglas, Desmond King, Jourdan Lewis, and Brendan Langley absolute fits at times). He's cured any level of competition concerns with his film. It's lazy, surface-level analysis to continue to focus on that.

Quote:
As for the route running, in your 1st GIF, I don't like that he continues to gain depth, then he takes a false step forward and is forced to jump backwards to catch the ball. Continuing to gain depth on after the cut is how you get your QB picked off at the next level, or even in much of the FBS. If you look for it, you can find him making unnecessary movements regularly. These movements slow him down, and being a guy who already isn't that fast, that'll close separation even more quickly.


You're wrong. That's a speed cut. He gained the appropriate level of depth. You are expected to gain about two yards of depth from where you begin your cut to where you come out of your break. It's why coaches tell you to cut at 7 yards and roll to 9 yards (for example). That's exactly what Kupp did. He starts his break at 7 yards, his plant foot hits at 8 yards, and he comes out of his cut at 9 yards. That's exactly what he's supposed to do. After he comes out of his breaks, he gets his head and hips around and prepares to work downhill back to his QB. He realizes that his QB's pass is a little off, so he plants, jumps and catches it. There were no false steps or unnecessary depth on that route.

As for him using "unnecessary movements," they aren't unnecessary. EWU's offense is extremely predictable. This is one of those plays where he uses "unnecessary movement" against the defender. He does that because the defender is squatting on his route. Watch him throw a quick stutter on his vertical stem. It causes the defender to step in the wrong direction and deaden his feet. That's what allows Kupp so much separation out of his break. It was necessary there because the defender was sitting on his route. He knew that. Sean McVay actually speaks to this when he says:
"His above-the-neck approach, in terms of the way that he sees the game, it’s almost through the quarterback’s perspective,” McVay said. “He understands that, he understands route distribution.

Then, I think he’s wired the right way. You can see he’s always got a plan at the line of scrimmage with how he’s going to work versus different coverages and where the holes are in that coverage, and he’s got great hands.

I think you see a guy that understands the game. You watch him play, you see he’s got those pre-snap plans that, a lot of times, you don’t see. He is one of the more polished college receivers that I’ve evaluated coming out in a while, and that’s why you feel good about him. We’re excited to see how when we get him in that building, and then he’s able to go compete with our players how that translates.”

McVay is speaking about these sort of plays where Kupp recognizes the coverage pre-snap, recognizes that he's going to have to be creative to separate on his route, and uses that creativity to create separation on a play that the defense is setup specifically to stop.

In the NFL, he won't need to use those sorts of movements as often because the offense won't be as predictable, he'll have options which will allow him to be creative in a different sort of way, and he'll have a QB who can check out of plays.

Quote:
As for the play you found of him getting to the hole of the Defense, sure, he will find the holes in the zones at times. At times, he'll run into the coverage. Posting a play where he does it the right way and then calling my point garbage is very disingenuous. It's like if someone said a player will drop the ball, and I say, "What a load of garbage," with a GIF of a catch.


If I posted the Richmond game, you'd see five or six different catches from Kupp in the first half of that game where he settled into holes in the zone. He has no issues finding the holes in the zone.

What you don't seem to recognize is that college offenses are a lot more rigid than NFL offenses. The route on the play might lead Kupp into coverage. He still has to run it. When he has a route that allows him to sit down in holes in the zone, he does it quite well. Kupp understands his role in the offense. He's not going to freelance out there. It can screw up the route tree.

There's nothing disingenuous about calling your claim that "he wouldn't sit down in the holes, he'd just run into the coverage" against zone defense garbage. It was. Hell, it directly conflicts with what Sean McVay is saying. It directly conflicts with what I've seen on film.

Quote:
You are under some sort of assumption that I care about your respect. I don't. If you want to be a civil person and talk about these things, we can, but you clearly don't want to be a civil person. I don't need to work to earn your respect to get a baseline respect from you. If that's how it's going to be, I'm just not going to give a [inappropriate/removed] about what you think. The problem here is you will not even give a baseline respect to me to get the conversation started, going around lying to people about whether I watch tape or not, when I put in hours of watching tape. If all I do is go off the measurables and times, why aren't my rankings ordered in such a manner?


Cool. I don't respect you based on some of the ridiculous things you've claimed in this forum. I'm not going to hesitate to call you out when I think you're spewing crap.

Quote:
That's not to say that giving rankings of others can't be useful for certain points, such as trying to find independent 3rd party opinions to show where a general consensus is of a player.


It's not useful. If anyone here cared, they would already know because a simple google search reveals it. You're not adding anything of use.

Quote:
It's not up to me to earn your respect enough to get you to stop making slanderous statements about me, it's up to you give a baseline respect and civility to not commit the slander in the first place.


And now we're back to you incorrectly using legal jargon. Slander is spoken; libel is written. What I said qualifies as neither.


1) I'm well aware that libel is written in legal jargon, but in typical jrry32 fashion, you misinterpreted me yet again. I was not speaking in legal terms.

2) I encourage others to read this Jrry32's comments here. It's pretty clear that what he's saying is that I offer nothing to the forum because I don't discuss in a manner that he wants me to and I don't have the opinions he has. Is this what this board is reduced to? Does everybody have to have one style to be allowed to have an opinion? Does everyone have to have the same opinion without people subjectively deeming other opinions crap without even seeing how these players play out? Is my opinion equally crap if I turn out to be right and Jrry32 turns out to be wrong?

3) Jrry32, your bullying is not impressing anybody, and it doesn't make you right. I will continue to complain until you stop your bullying tactics.
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, we all get fired up at times, but once you've had your say, best to just agree to disagree and move on. By all means if you have another point to make, or new info to give, then bring it on. No one minds that. But if it's a rehash, well, we don't all have to agree.

Let's face it, I don't think you 2 are going to agree on Kupp.
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DraftHobbyist


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broncofan wrote:
Guys, we all get fired up at times, but once you've had your say, best to just agree to disagree and move on. By all means if you have another point to make, or new info to give, then bring it on. No one minds that. But if it's a rehash, well, we don't all have to agree.

Let's face it, I don't think you 2 are going to agree on Kupp.


That's not the main issue here. The main issue is that Jrry32 is saying that he won't respect me and will continue to talk down to me calling my opinions "trash", and lying to others about whether I watch film or not. He's literally going around telling people that I don't watch film. When confronted, he refuses to stop.

On Kupp, we don't even disagree very much. I said one minor point that he disagrees with that I blamed on scheme and not even Kupp, but he's guided so much by emotionalism that he doesn't even realize that. I mentioned that he sometimes runs into coverage, which he does, because Eastern Washington runs a bunch of timing slant routes. The Offense isn't advanced enough to break those off and find the open hole, which is perfectly reasonable. I simply think Kupp went a little too high.

It's amazing how Jrry32 basically makes one little comment I made into something it was never intended to be. And I'm sure he'll respond to this taking twisting something else, because that's what he does. It's not the disagreement that bothers me, it's the constant misrepresentation. Do people not deserve to be accurately represented?
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:
Broncofan wrote:
Guys, we all get fired up at times, but once you've had your say, best to just agree to disagree and move on. By all means if you have another point to make, or new info to give, then bring it on. No one minds that. But if it's a rehash, well, we don't all have to agree.

Let's face it, I don't think you 2 are going to agree on Kupp.


That's not the main issue here. The main issue is that Jrry32 is saying that he won't respect me and will continue to talk down to me calling my opinions "trash", and lying to others about whether I watch film or not. He's literally going around telling people that I don't watch film. When confronted, he refuses to stop.

On Kupp, we don't even disagree very much. I said one minor point that he disagrees with that I blamed on scheme and not even Kupp, but he's guided so much by emotionalism that he doesn't even realize that. I mentioned that he sometimes runs into coverage, which he does, because Eastern Washington runs a bunch of timing slant routes. The Offense isn't advanced enough to break those off and find the open hole, which is perfectly reasonable. I simply think Kupp went a little too high.

It's amazing how Jrry32 basically makes one little comment I made into something it was never intended to be. And I'm sure he'll respond to this taking twisting something else, because that's what he does. It's not the disagreement that bothers me, it's the constant misrepresentation. Do people not deserve to be accurately represented?


Ok it was too simplistic to leave your mutual beef with Kupp. That's fair. But it's clear you 2 aren't going find common ground on this discussion. At some point just gotta let it go if no new points are being made. By all means respond to new stuff. Just once it's a rehash...well you get the idea.


On that note I've said my piece....so peace. Wink
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H2ThaIzzo


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
No I agree with you on everything you said but I was just pointing out that the past can't be erased in memory.
Maybe not for fans, but it is only one data point in a whole lot of data points that make up an evaluation of a draft. To this regime, the Johnny Manziel pick or Julio Jones trade is not any more relevant than Blaine Gabbert pick or the Jared Goff trade.

And the only relevance there is that it just provides a data point for what the market is. Beyond that, it has no basis in the Browns' decision making nor should it have any basis in our evaluation of their performance.

stl4life07 wrote:
The new regime obviously has a plan but my question still stands about the Browns approach at QB. 2 years in a row they coveted a guy and 2 years in a row the didn't get the guy and settled for another one. Now it can work at other positions but at QB it's vital that a team don't screw it up.
Welcome to the Nerd Football League.

If the Browns are operating like how I think they are, they done make it a binary "yes, we like him" or "no, we don't like him" decision. They put a price on what Mitch is worth. They put a price on what Goff was worth. They were outbid both times. Doesn't mean they didn't like them, they just didn't like them enough to justify the cost.

Side note: This is a market inefficiency. On Friday morning after the draft, Dan Patrick was talking about the Bears and his thoughts were basically, "well if you think he's the guy or your (TM) "franchise QB", who cares what you paid?" That's stupid. You should always care what you pay for a guy. If you are a GM who thinks Mitch Trubisky is such a good prospect that it doesn't matter what you pay to acquire him, you haven't evaluated the odds that he busts correctly and you're probably not good at your job.

stl4life07 wrote:
Why you think Jerry Jones said he regret not trading up to get Lynch after Day 1 of last year draft? He thought highly of Lynch and knew with Romo injury issues, he needed a long term answer and thought Lynch would be the answer but he failed to go get him. Now the Cowboys were fortunate that Prescott panned out when they settled for him later in the draft. So if Kessler or Kizer ends up working out then the QBs the Browns settled for after missing the QBs they coveted the past two drafts, then the Browns will come out like bandits with all these trades but we will just have to wait and see.
There is no version of "if, then" that is required to validate what the Browns are doing. We don't have access to a time machine, but we do have access to a whole lot of previous data which says they've come out way ahead on value.

They might bust, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that the decision makers are doing a good job with the cards they are dealt.


I agree with what you are saying but again my question still remains, what are the Browns doing at QB? If I said that Niners are waiting to see what might happen with Cousins in 2018 and they are rebuilding the defense right now. If I said the Jets are seeing what they have in Heckenberg and Petty. Like we sort of have a clue what those teams are trying to do as far a the QB position goes. The only data, if you will, that I know about the Browns was last year they signed RG3 and wanted Goff, drafted Kessler, didn't trade McCown. This season they didn't resign McCown, traded for Osweiller with no plans to keep, cut RG3, tried hard to get Garoppolo but failed, wanted Trubisky, drafted Kizer. All this activity at the QB position just in two offseasons. I'm not even a Browns fan and find that frustrating. I know all about it being a Rams fan and going through the same thing in recent memory, at least the Rams as an organization came together on getting Goff and even though we know no more now than we did last season just based on poor coaching staff around him up help ease him into his rookie season, but at least there is no looming questions about what the Rams will do at QB. Now it's about getting the right coaching staff to help develop Goff and putting the right players around him to help him succeed and that's what the Rams did this offseason. The Browns are still trying to figure out the QB position and it's not like they don't have good weapons on offense. Last year they had Coleman, Barnidge, Crowell, Pryor, Johnson, and a solid oline. This year they lost Pryor but Britt is a nice pick up as far as talent goes, Njoku is talented even though I don't see why the cut Barnidge. So it's still about figuring the QB situation out for the Browns. That's all I'm trying to say.


I could not agree more. Until the Browns find a franchise QB, all the picks in the world will not make them a serious consistent contender.

The Browns have had 20 years already looking for a franchise QB with zero luck or basically a terrible owner and FO.

You need to be extremely lucky to find a franchise QB, Washington gave up 3 firsts to draft RG111, outbidding the Browns who had an excess of picks to offer. Picks never automatically = a franchise QB.

I believe the Browns drafted pretty well, but in Kizer and Kessler, they have squat and that isn't going to change. They are putting all their eggs in one basket, praying they can secure a franchise QB in next year's draft, but to guarantee that, they have to be drafting no higher than #2 overall. If they are drafting higher than #2, then the odds of securing a franchise QB in the draft become miserable, because in all likelihood, the teams drafting #1 and #2 will be QB desperate teams and no amount of picks will entice them to pass on a potential franchise QB and the Browns will be back again the following year, no better off and probably drafting even higher. This is how franchises can remain mediocre for anywhere between 20 to 50 years.

I am a Brown's fan and am praying I am dead wrong and that a franchise QB either develops or just falls into their lap, but I am not holding my breath.


The Browns were tight lipped throughout the entire draft process. Any speculation on the Browns targeting a specific QB was purely that, speculation. In fact, the swirling rumors of the Browns wanting Trubisky made things better for them, it dropped more defensive players down the draft board, cause the value of the next QB's, Watson and Mahomes to be inflated, and allowed them the flexibility that they obviously love in acquiring future picks.

The Chiefs have become a solid team built by defense and the ability to run the ball. They have a bottom of the league receiving corps, and a mid-level NFL QB in Alex Smith. The Texans just had one of the ugliest QB situations in the league, and managed to win some football games. The Cowboys went to the playoffs with a rookie 4th round QB.


Since 2011 there has arguably been more success from non 1st round QB's than 1st round QB's drafted.
Dalton
Kaepernick
Taylor
Wilson
Cousins
Carr
Prescott

vs

Newton
Luck
Tannehill
Winston
Mariotta
Wentz
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:
Broncofan wrote:
Guys, we all get fired up at times, but once you've had your say, best to just agree to disagree and move on. By all means if you have another point to make, or new info to give, then bring it on. No one minds that. But if it's a rehash, well, we don't all have to agree.

Let's face it, I don't think you 2 are going to agree on Kupp.


That's not the main issue here. The main issue is that Jrry32 is saying that he won't respect me and will continue to talk down to me calling my opinions "trash", and lying to others about whether I watch film or not. He's literally going around telling people that I don't watch film. When confronted, he refuses to stop.

On Kupp, we don't even disagree very much. I said one minor point that he disagrees with that I blamed on scheme and not even Kupp, but he's guided so much by emotionalism that he doesn't even realize that. I mentioned that he sometimes runs into coverage, which he does, because Eastern Washington runs a bunch of timing slant routes. The Offense isn't advanced enough to break those off and find the open hole, which is perfectly reasonable. I simply think Kupp went a little too high.

It's amazing how Jrry32 basically makes one little comment I made into something it was never intended to be. And I'm sure he'll respond to this taking twisting something else, because that's what he does. It's not the disagreement that bothers me, it's the constant misrepresentation. Do people not deserve to be accurately represented?


DraftHobbyist wrote:
I think if you're looking at the positive you can find the highlight catches with some one-handers and the like, but if you look for the bad there is plenty out there. People love to tout his route-running, but I don't think it's that great at all. The Offense he played in was very basic, and so he wouldn't sit down in the holes, he'd just run into the coverage. Fortunately for Kupp, he was playing against bad Defenses that rarely took advantage. even the FBS teams he played had pretty bad Defenses. He also takes all kinds of false steps and often takes forever to get to the open spot on a lot of those drag routes, and in college you might have that kind of time, but in the NFL you usually don't.


You didn't chalk it up to just the offense. You claimed he wasn't as good of a route runner as touted. You were wrong. Now, you're backtracking. Your point about him not sitting down in holes was wrong too. Now, you're trying to minimize what you said retroactively to avoid having to own it.(now, it's just "sometimes" and only on "timing slant routes") Hell, you even tried to criticize the gif I posted of him running a great route. You were wrong on that too.

By all means, continue to cry about what a meany I am. Nobody is going to feel sorry for you. I am the same meany to every poster here. Difference is that almost all of them earned my respect by putting their money where their mouth was when their opinions were challenged. You failed to do that.
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