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2017 NFL Draft Winners/Losers
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MWil23


Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 6433
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramssuperbowl99 wrote:


If the Browns are operating like how I think they are, they done make it a binary "yes, we like him" or "no, we don't like him" decision. They put a price on what Mitch is worth. They put a price on what Goff was worth. They were outbid both times. Doesn't mean they didn't like them, they just didn't like them enough to justify the cost.



That's EXACTLY what their GM and HC both said in an interview a month ago. They said basically "We don't think that our scouts are any better than anyone else, and statistically speaking (NERD ALERT!), you have a 50/50 shot at best with any given prospect. We feel like stockpiling ammunition (trades, players, draft picks, etc.) is the best way to build our roster."

From a simple mathematics point of view, they got 9 players (and 1st and 2nd next year) for Carson Wentz.

Even assuming that they use BOTH their 1st and 2nd next year on a QB, the likelihood would be that one of the 4 QBs that they'd draft instead of Wentz would have at least the same if not a 100% better likelihood of panning out, not even including the other 7 position players, 2 of which are first rounders in Coleman and Peppers.

It just makes more sense, especially for a team like the Browns whose roster was absolutely atrocious and talent deprived.
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stl4life07


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
No I agree with you on everything you said but I was just pointing out that the past can't be erased in memory.
Maybe not for fans, but it is only one data point in a whole lot of data points that make up an evaluation of a draft. To this regime, the Johnny Manziel pick or Julio Jones trade is not any more relevant than Blaine Gabbert pick or the Jared Goff trade.

And the only relevance there is that it just provides a data point for what the market is. Beyond that, it has no basis in the Browns' decision making nor should it have any basis in our evaluation of their performance.

stl4life07 wrote:
The new regime obviously has a plan but my question still stands about the Browns approach at QB. 2 years in a row they coveted a guy and 2 years in a row the didn't get the guy and settled for another one. Now it can work at other positions but at QB it's vital that a team don't screw it up.
Welcome to the Nerd Football League.

If the Browns are operating like how I think they are, they done make it a binary "yes, we like him" or "no, we don't like him" decision. They put a price on what Mitch is worth. They put a price on what Goff was worth. They were outbid both times. Doesn't mean they didn't like them, they just didn't like them enough to justify the cost.

Side note: This is a market inefficiency. On Friday morning after the draft, Dan Patrick was talking about the Bears and his thoughts were basically, "well if you think he's the guy or your (TM) "franchise QB", who cares what you paid?" That's stupid. You should always care what you pay for a guy. If you are a GM who thinks Mitch Trubisky is such a good prospect that it doesn't matter what you pay to acquire him, you haven't evaluated the odds that he busts correctly and you're probably not good at your job.

stl4life07 wrote:
Why you think Jerry Jones said he regret not trading up to get Lynch after Day 1 of last year draft? He thought highly of Lynch and knew with Romo injury issues, he needed a long term answer and thought Lynch would be the answer but he failed to go get him. Now the Cowboys were fortunate that Prescott panned out when they settled for him later in the draft. So if Kessler or Kizer ends up working out then the QBs the Browns settled for after missing the QBs they coveted the past two drafts, then the Browns will come out like bandits with all these trades but we will just have to wait and see.
There is no version of "if, then" that is required to validate what the Browns are doing. We don't have access to a time machine, but we do have access to a whole lot of previous data which says they've come out way ahead on value.

They might bust, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that the decision makers are doing a good job with the cards they are dealt.


I agree with what you are saying but again my question still remains, what are the Browns doing at QB? If I said that Niners are waiting to see what might happen with Cousins in 2018 and they are rebuilding the defense right now. If I said the Jets are seeing what they have in Heckenberg and Petty. Like we sort of have a clue what those teams are trying to do as far a the QB position goes. The only data, if you will, that I know about the Browns was last year they signed RG3 and wanted Goff, drafted Kessler, didn't trade McCown. This season they didn't resign McCown, traded for Osweiller with no plans to keep, cut RG3, tried hard to get Garoppolo but failed, wanted Trubisky, drafted Kizer. All this activity at the QB position just in two offseasons. I'm not even a Browns fan and find that frustrating. I know all about it being a Rams fan and going through the same thing in recent memory, at least the Rams as an organization came together on getting Goff and even though we know no more now than we did last season just based on poor coaching staff around him up help ease him into his rookie season, but at least there is no looming questions about what the Rams will do at QB. Now it's about getting the right coaching staff to help develop Goff and putting the right players around him to help him succeed and that's what the Rams did this offseason. The Browns are still trying to figure out the QB position and it's not like they don't have good weapons on offense. Last year they had Coleman, Barnidge, Crowell, Pryor, Johnson, and a solid oline. This year they lost Pryor but Britt is a nice pick up as far as talent goes, Njoku is talented even though I don't see why the cut Barnidge. So it's still about figuring the QB situation out for the Browns. That's all I'm trying to say.
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ramssuperbowl99


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stl4life07 wrote:
I agree with what you are saying but again my question still remains, what are the Browns doing at QB?
They have 5 picks in the top 2 rounds, probably will be picking high next year, a metric [inappropriate/removed] ton of cap space, and a roster that is starting to look respectable at other spots. So, whatever they want?

What your perceiving as a lack of a plan isn't necessarily a lack of a plan at all. They've kept every possibility open, and without the tunnel vision that other teams might have, the media can't latch on to some clickbaity story of "the Browns need so and so because he's the only franchise QB (TM) they can get".

stl4life07 wrote:
If I said that Niners are waiting to see what might happen with Cousins in 2018 and they are rebuilding the defense right now. If I said the Jets are seeing what they have in Heckenberg and Petty. Like we sort of have a clue what those teams are trying to do as far a the QB position goes.
The Browns could also be waiting for Cousins. They're further along than the 9ers in a rebuild, that's for sure. The Browns are also kind of doing what the Bears did with Trubisky - both teams drafted a QB and acquired an expensive veteran to allow that QB to sit. The difference is by taking a worse QB the Browns got a draft pick to boot.

They have a year to evaluate Kizer and Kessler. If either does well, they keep him. If they don't do well, they trade or cut them. If they have the 1st pick in the draft, they can decide whether to trade that and keep their guy or trade their guy and keep the pick.

When they have to make a decision, they will. But they don't have to yet, so there is no reason to box themselves in.

stl4life07 wrote:
The only data, if you will, that I know about the Browns was last year they signed RG3 and wanted Goff, drafted Kessler, didn't trade McCown. This season they didn't resign McCown, traded for Osweiller with no plans to keep, cut RG3, tried hard to get Garoppolo but failed, wanted Trubisky, drafted Kizer. All this activity at the QB position just in two offseasons. I'm not even a Browns fan and find that frustrating.
That' shouldn't be frustrating at all. They got some lottery tickets that haven't worked out and didn't overpay for a QB in the draft.

stl4life07 wrote:
I know all about it being a Rams fan and going through the same thing in recent memory, at least the Rams as an organization came together on getting Goff and even though we know no more now than we did last season just based on poor coaching staff around him up help ease him into his rookie season, but at least there is no looming questions about what the Rams will do at QB.
Yeah, because you can't afford another QB. But there are now questions about whether he's going to be any good. Laughing

stl4life07 wrote:
So it's still about figuring the QB situation out for the Browns. That's all I'm trying to say.
You're confusing "have no plan" and "have all of the plans still on the table".
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stl4life07


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
I agree with what you are saying but again my question still remains, what are the Browns doing at QB?
They have 5 picks in the top 2 rounds, probably will be picking high next year, a metric [inappropriate/removed] ton of cap space, and a roster that is starting to look respectable at other spots. So, whatever they want?

What your perceiving as a lack of a plan isn't necessarily a lack of a plan at all. They've kept every possibility open, and without the tunnel vision that other teams might have, the media can't latch on to some clickbaity story of "the Browns need so and so because he's the only franchise QB (TM) they can get".

stl4life07 wrote:
If I said that Niners are waiting to see what might happen with Cousins in 2018 and they are rebuilding the defense right now. If I said the Jets are seeing what they have in Heckenberg and Petty. Like we sort of have a clue what those teams are trying to do as far a the QB position goes.
The Browns could also be waiting for Cousins. They're further along than the 9ers in a rebuild, that's for sure. The Browns are also kind of doing what the Bears did with Trubisky - both teams drafted a QB and acquired an expensive veteran to allow that QB to sit. The difference is by taking a worse QB the Browns got a draft pick to boot.

They have a year to evaluate Kizer and Kessler. If either does well, they keep him. If they don't do well, they trade or cut them. If they have the 1st pick in the draft, they can decide whether to trade that and keep their guy or trade their guy and keep the pick.

When they have to make a decision, they will. But they don't have to yet, so there is no reason to box themselves in.

stl4life07 wrote:
The only data, if you will, that I know about the Browns was last year they signed RG3 and wanted Goff, drafted Kessler, didn't trade McCown. This season they didn't resign McCown, traded for Osweiller with no plans to keep, cut RG3, tried hard to get Garoppolo but failed, wanted Trubisky, drafted Kizer. All this activity at the QB position just in two offseasons. I'm not even a Browns fan and find that frustrating.
That' shouldn't be frustrating at all. They got some lottery tickets that haven't worked out and didn't overpay for a QB in the draft.

stl4life07 wrote:
I know all about it being a Rams fan and going through the same thing in recent memory, at least the Rams as an organization came together on getting Goff and even though we know no more now than we did last season just based on poor coaching staff around him up help ease him into his rookie season, but at least there is no looming questions about what the Rams will do at QB.
Yeah, because you can't afford another QB. But there are now questions about whether he's going to be any good. Laughing

stl4life07 wrote:
So it's still about figuring the QB situation out for the Browns. That's all I'm trying to say.
You're confusing "have no plan" and "have all of the plans still on the table".


So basically you are saying it's a wait and see with the Browns. See what they have in Kessler and Kizer then next offseason make a move with tons of cap space and picks. So I'll be staying tune to see what happens.
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MemphisEagles


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My top 3:

Colts-I think they nailed it out of the park with their first three picks, especially the first two. Both Malik Hooker and Quincy Wilson were great values at positions that are big needs. I also like Marlon Mack and Anthony Walker. So they got five players I like without any reaching.

Panthers-I love McCaffrey, and I also really like Samuel. Having both is awesome because theoretically, if both are in the huddle the defense has no idea what is coming. It could be a jumbo set, a five wide, something in between. One back set with McCaffrey in the backfield and Samuel in the slot or vice versa. Then I like Moton and Elder.

Browns-I like all three dline men they got, and I like all three first rounders. So that's five players I like because Garret falls in both categories. Kizer is meh in my books but he's worth the risk in the late second.


Worst:

Giants-Not even being a hater because the Skins barely missed my top drafts. But I don't love anyone they drafted. Engram was a reach. Davis Webb is the only guy I like, so I guess a bad draft is worth a future QB if that's how it plays out.


Saints-I think Cooks for Ramcyzk is a fail. The only player they got I like is Kamara, and they didn't address pass rusher in a good draft until the seventh.

Chiefs-Not a Mahomes guy, so I hated that trade up. Then the only guy they took I like is Jehu Chesson.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:
I think we have very different Draft processes which is making this conversation difficult, because I'm pretty sure that you aren't interpreting what I'm saying as I'm intending. I think you are in a disagreement with my level of competition criticism because you think I'm saying that Kupp won't translate to the NFL, but that's not what I'm saying necessarily. For me, it's about risk, and because he didn't play in a power conference, or even in the FBS, there is added risk. It's a yellow flag for me. He did play in the FCS over DII or DIII, so he gets credit for that at least.

Also, I like to use a combination of considerations. I watch the film, consider the athletic testing, consider production, etc. So when I'm considering production, I'm adding that yellow flag of FCS play because I'm humble enough to realize that it's harder to judge FCS players than Power 5 conference players.

I mean, it's not like this "don't attack Kupp for level of competition" argument is your own. Many people try to make this argument when they've determined they like him. So lets get real about this FBS competition argument: The FBS competition he played sucked. Washington St was 50th in ppg allowed, and they were 112th in passing ypg allowed. Washington St is the only FBS team Kupp played his Senior season.

So now lets go to 2015. He played against Oregon and Northern Illinois. Oregon was 126th in passing ypg allowed, and Northern Illinois was 91st. Northern Illinois was 72nd-73rd in ppg allowed, and Oregon was 116th. These are the only 2 FBS teams he played in 2015.

2014. Washington was the only FBS team he played. Washington was 50th in ppg allowed, and 68th in passing ypg allowed.

2013. Oregon St and Toledo were the two teams. Oregon St was 94th in passing ypg allowed, and Toledo was 126th. Oregon St was 98th in ppg allowed, and Toledo was 92nd-93rd.

Total career FBS passing Defenses played: 94, 126 / 68 / 126, 91 / 112.
Total career FBS scoring Defenses played: 98, 92-93 / 50 / 116, 72-73 / 50.

These are the FBS Defenses that have you so confident?

And then you threw on the Senior Bowl. Using the Senior Bowl to show talent is like using the Spring Game in college. Sure, it's not a bad thing to shine at the Senior Bowl, but it's a glorified practice intended to improve players rather than showcase them. Most of the best players don't even attend.

So yes, there are serious concerns about level of competition and translation here, in terms of probabilities of what is likely to translate and what is not likely to translate.


No, there aren't concerns. You wouldn't have bothered to do any of this with a guy who played in the Big 12 or Pac-12. The "concerns" over competition are purely surface level. He eviscerated 4 Pac-12 teams during his career. All 4 Pac-12 teams went to Bowl games. He beat guys on two of the four Pac-12 teams who are playing in the NFL or will be soon.(Steven Nelson, Ryan Murphy, Marcus Peters, Budda Baker, and Kevin King)

He then went to the Senior Bowl and dominated the practice week (giving Rasul Douglas, Desmond King, Jourdan Lewis, and Brendan Langley absolute fits at times). He's cured any level of competition concerns with his film. It's lazy, surface-level analysis to continue to focus on that.

Quote:
As for the route running, in your 1st GIF, I don't like that he continues to gain depth, then he takes a false step forward and is forced to jump backwards to catch the ball. Continuing to gain depth on after the cut is how you get your QB picked off at the next level, or even in much of the FBS. If you look for it, you can find him making unnecessary movements regularly. These movements slow him down, and being a guy who already isn't that fast, that'll close separation even more quickly.


You're wrong. That's a speed cut. He gained the appropriate level of depth. You are expected to gain about two yards of depth from where you begin your cut to where you come out of your break. It's why coaches tell you to cut at 7 yards and roll to 9 yards (for example). That's exactly what Kupp did. He starts his break at 7 yards, his plant foot hits at 8 yards, and he comes out of his cut at 9 yards. That's exactly what he's supposed to do. After he comes out of his breaks, he gets his head and hips around and prepares to work downhill back to his QB. He realizes that his QB's pass is a little off, so he plants, jumps and catches it. There were no false steps or unnecessary depth on that route.

As for him using "unnecessary movements," they aren't unnecessary. EWU's offense is extremely predictable. This is one of those plays where he uses "unnecessary movement" against the defender. He does that because the defender is squatting on his route. Watch him throw a quick stutter on his vertical stem. It causes the defender to step in the wrong direction and deaden his feet. That's what allows Kupp so much separation out of his break. It was necessary there because the defender was sitting on his route. He knew that. Sean McVay actually speaks to this when he says:
"His above-the-neck approach, in terms of the way that he sees the game, it’s almost through the quarterback’s perspective,” McVay said. “He understands that, he understands route distribution.

Then, I think he’s wired the right way. You can see he’s always got a plan at the line of scrimmage with how he’s going to work versus different coverages and where the holes are in that coverage, and he’s got great hands.

I think you see a guy that understands the game. You watch him play, you see he’s got those pre-snap plans that, a lot of times, you don’t see. He is one of the more polished college receivers that I’ve evaluated coming out in a while, and that’s why you feel good about him. We’re excited to see how when we get him in that building, and then he’s able to go compete with our players how that translates.”

McVay is speaking about these sort of plays where Kupp recognizes the coverage pre-snap, recognizes that he's going to have to be creative to separate on his route, and uses that creativity to create separation on a play that the defense is setup specifically to stop.

In the NFL, he won't need to use those sorts of movements as often because the offense won't be as predictable, he'll have options which will allow him to be creative in a different sort of way, and he'll have a QB who can check out of plays.

Quote:
As for the play you found of him getting to the hole of the Defense, sure, he will find the holes in the zones at times. At times, he'll run into the coverage. Posting a play where he does it the right way and then calling my point garbage is very disingenuous. It's like if someone said a player will drop the ball, and I say, "What a load of garbage," with a GIF of a catch.


If I posted the Richmond game, you'd see five or six different catches from Kupp in the first half of that game where he settled into holes in the zone. He has no issues finding the holes in the zone.

What you don't seem to recognize is that college offenses are a lot more rigid than NFL offenses. The route on the play might lead Kupp into coverage. He still has to run it. When he has a route that allows him to sit down in holes in the zone, he does it quite well. Kupp understands his role in the offense. He's not going to freelance out there. It can screw up the route tree.

There's nothing disingenuous about calling your claim that "he wouldn't sit down in the holes, he'd just run into the coverage" against zone defense garbage. It was. Hell, it directly conflicts with what Sean McVay is saying. It directly conflicts with what I've seen on film.

Quote:
You are under some sort of assumption that I care about your respect. I don't. If you want to be a civil person and talk about these things, we can, but you clearly don't want to be a civil person. I don't need to work to earn your respect to get a baseline respect from you. If that's how it's going to be, I'm just not going to give a [inappropriate/removed] about what you think. The problem here is you will not even give a baseline respect to me to get the conversation started, going around lying to people about whether I watch tape or not, when I put in hours of watching tape. If all I do is go off the measurables and times, why aren't my rankings ordered in such a manner?


Cool. I don't respect you based on some of the ridiculous things you've claimed in this forum. I'm not going to hesitate to call you out when I think you're spewing crap.

Quote:
That's not to say that giving rankings of others can't be useful for certain points, such as trying to find independent 3rd party opinions to show where a general consensus is of a player.


It's not useful. If anyone here cared, they would already know because a simple google search reveals it. You're not adding anything of use.

Quote:
It's not up to me to earn your respect enough to get you to stop making slanderous statements about me, it's up to you give a baseline respect and civility to not commit the slander in the first place.


And now we're back to you incorrectly using legal jargon. Slander is spoken; libel is written. What I said qualifies as neither.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stl4life07 wrote:
So basically you are saying it's a wait and see with the Browns. See what they have in Kessler and Kizer then next offseason make a move with tons of cap space and picks. So I'll be staying tune to see what happens.


Yes, that's exactly what they're doing. It's the right call.
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ramssuperbowl99


Joined: 15 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
So basically you are saying it's a wait and see with the Browns. See what they have in Kessler and Kizer then next offseason make a move with tons of cap space and picks. So I'll be staying tune to see what happens.


Yes, that's exactly what they're doing. It's the right call.
I wouldn't even describe it that as "waiting and seeing" because it's not a passive process. They're actively opening doors by acquiring so many extra draft picks, so that they can get a QB without having to overpay.
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stl4life07


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
So basically you are saying it's a wait and see with the Browns. See what they have in Kessler and Kizer then next offseason make a move with tons of cap space and picks. So I'll be staying tune to see what happens.


Yes, that's exactly what they're doing. It's the right call.
I wouldn't even describe it that as "waiting and seeing" because it's not a passive process. They're actively opening doors by acquiring so many extra draft picks, so that they can get a QB without having to overpay.


Unless they get a QB soon it has to be a wait and see at least for this season to hopefully finally settled on the QB their FO agrees on as the future unless Kessler or Kizer show them something and they don't go after a QB next offseason.
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stl4life07 wrote:
ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
So basically you are saying it's a wait and see with the Browns. See what they have in Kessler and Kizer then next offseason make a move with tons of cap space and picks. So I'll be staying tune to see what happens.


Yes, that's exactly what they're doing. It's the right call.
I wouldn't even describe it that as "waiting and seeing" because it's not a passive process. They're actively opening doors by acquiring so many extra draft picks, so that they can get a QB without having to overpay.


Unless they get a QB soon it has to be a wait and see at least for this season to hopefully finally settled on the QB their FO agrees on as the future unless Kessler or Kizer show them something and they don't go after a QB next offseason.


They've accumulated so many picks, frankly it's a no-lose situation, assuming they know what to do with the picks. Everything in the 2016-2017 picks made indicates they do. Other than Peppers, I think they got great value. Kizer was just an insurance "let's see what he has" luxury pick IMO. If he's worth calling the QBOTF great. If not, move on.

And the sneaky part - almost all of their guys are not plug-and-play guys, except for Garrett (obv). That puts them in a great spot to be picking early 1 more time. Imagine them with 1.1? They'd get their QBOTF and keep the pick haul. Still will take another year to get everyone in place from 2018's draft, but come 2019, at the end of their 3-year rebuild...this could be a very, very talented team.
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Ward4HOF


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
VanS wrote:
The best draft IMO was by the Steelers and by a pretty wide margin. They landed 4 players that I had rated as the #1 or #2 overall prospect at their position. Their first 5 picks all have the potential to be either immediate or future starters.

(1) TJ Watt was a player I was not super high on going into the draft. I thought he was a 2nd round caliber player so taking him late 1st isn't a big reach. He should start immediately at OLB and be productive. He's got great athleticism so his ceiling is pretty high. He just needs to stay healthy.

Very decent pick !!

(2) JuJu Smith-Schuster was my #2 rated WR (behind Corey Davis) going into the draft. He is the youngest player in the draft and has a lot of potential. Should start immediately alongside Antonio Brown and Martavis Bryant.

Also liked this pick, although as a prospect, he is hardly the 2nd rated receiver in this draft.

(3) Cam Sutton was my #1 rated CB going into the draft. He is a CB with immediate starting potential at outside corner or nickel.

Your starting to stretch it a bit here. Not a 1st round talent IMO, but decent nevertheless.

(4) James Conner was my #2 rated RB going into the draft. He will be the backup initially behind Bell but I wouldn't be surprised if the Steelers let Bell go in a year or two and hand the job over to James Conner. He has a a chance to be a franchise RB.


This guy is definitely intriguing if he is ever fully healthy again. Just have to wait and see.


(5) And finally my favorite pick in the draft was getting Josh Dobbs in the 4th round. He was my #1 rated QB going into the draft. This could be the eventual replacement to Big Ben. Landing a franchise QB with the 135th pick. That's doesn't happen every year (except for last year when the Dallas Cowboys landed Dak with the exact same pick).


Here, I completely disagree. Dobbs will never be a starting QB in the NFL and will struggle to even be a backup. Even Dak isn't assured of being a franchise QB. Remember, he plays behind the best OL in the NFL and that enables Dallas to be a run first team with Dak facing little pressure to win games on his own.


Dobbs will enjoy the same benefit Dak has with OL; the Steelers have one of the top OL units in the league (DeCastro, Pouncey, Foster, Gilbert, with Villanueva being the biggest '?'), also with a run first ability with one of the top 3 RBs in the league (maybe sliding to only Top 5 after this draft), in Bell.

But what, exactly, is it in Dobbs, don't you like? Everything I can tell, as NOT being a QB guru, is that the biggest things he needs to overcome are fixable--footwork, which affects his accuracy, and learning to play from behind the center. We all know he's plenty intelligent enough to 'learn' those things, so once those correctable items are fixed, and he learns what he can behind Ben, his more-than-adequte arm strength/talent, coupled with his ability to stand tall in the face of pressure (and not pee his pants at 1st site of it), along with his athleticism, I see no reason he can't be a solid QB. He's plenty tall at over 6'3", though he'll need to add some NFL weight--about 15-20 lbs--but again, all of this is correctable. I would be much more worried if he was more like Jones and couldn't handle pressure, or if his arm was weak. And his accuracy isn't that terrible, it just needs some help.

Anyway, my favorite drafts were:

Colts - Amazing the difference a GM can make; very smart draft.
Eagles - Good value picks, throughout
Redskins - Really like Allen and Anderson, and Sprinkle as well.
49ers - Shouldn't be allowed to have that many picks, and hit on 90% of them.
Bucs - It's like every pick from Rd 3 on, was a 1/2 Rd steal or better at a minimum, at least, according to most media 'big boards'.

Least Favorite:

Browns, Bengals, and Ravens - well because overall, they were solid drafts, and that gets annoying year in and year out. -sigh-

Bears - Sorry. Not to pile on, but just never a fan of trading that much away for one slot, especially for a QB that wasn't even the consensus top player at his position. Maybe, if it was to move up to grab Garrett, or some prospect widely felt to be the top at his position by all teams/GMs. Then, the rest of the class wasn't spectacular.

Seahawks - They usually 'beat to their own drum' in drafts, and it turns out fine, so I'm sure that will be no different this year, but typically, I like them a little more than I did, personally, this year.

Broncos - Again, just personal, and just like some people didn't like Watt for some reasons, I'm just not a huge fan of taking older lineman in the 1st Round. Similar to what the Eagles did several years back. That one did NOT turn out well for them; hopefully the Broncos have more luck with Bolles. No way to know, though, because even that year, Watkins was rated well enough to be taken high, just like Bolles, so that wasn't a reach, either, and Bolles was the top OL in the draft. Just have to wait and see, I guess, but the rest of the draft wasn't anything special, either, I didn't feel.
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No. Ben's good, but he isn't one of the all-time greats.
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Ward4HOF


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 5140
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:


I know. But I don't care. I love what we did. The Rams took a number of guys that I thought were both great scheme fits and effective future pro players.

The Rams have an identity. I love it. That's what has plagued this team for years. They drafted without a clear identity (except on defense during the Fisher years). Now, they have one on both sides of the ball. I trust both McVay and Phillips to get the job done.


There's definitely something to be said for this, as it plagued my organization for a time as well. However, at day's end, this draft will likely only produce a couple players of role value and a few guys lucky enough to stick as depth/STs guys IF they're fortunate to get past their rookie contracts (Which most won't). That's not a description that fits a top 5 NFL Draft, which is essentially what this topic morphs into. Top 5/bottom five.

There's a difference between being happy with what your team put together and believing it to be the greatest accomplishment since we started slicing bread. Too often, Rams fans cross that line (Though usually not you, sir).


Cooper Kupp made this draft for me. Personally, I wanted Forrest Lamp over Gerald Everett. We'll see what comes of that, but I do trust McVay to get the job done there. Everett does have a lot of similarities to Reed (athleticism, size, hands, and YAC). That all said, Everett is pretty rough around the edges, so there are no guarantees with him.

I wasn't too happy with that pick because the Rams had passed on the two guys I pounded the table for the entire draft process, Forrest Lamp and Cooper Kupp. When we got Kupp in the third round, that changed everything for me (since I would have been quite happy with Kupp in the 2nd and Everett in the 3rd).

Kupp is the crown jewel of this class for me. I preferred him over every WR not named Corey Davis, and I know that Davis realistically wouldn't be there for us. I am confident that Kupp will post 1000 yard seasons in the NFL. He lacks top-end speed, but he has everything else. He's as skilled of a WR as I've seen come out. On top of that, he's incredibly intelligent, has great intangibles, and the right attributes (quickness, change of direction ability, acceleration, body control, and hand-eye coordination).

If you go look at Antonio Brown's combine measurables, they were bad. Kupp has many of the same traits that make Antonio Brown such a great WR. I think he's capable of great things in the NFL, especially if Goff pans out the way I think he will. I could write you an essay on how skilled Kupp is. It's just gorgeous for a WR nerd like me who enjoys analyzing the nuances of the technical aspects of that position. He's even more skilled than Keenan Allen was as a prospect, and that's saying something.

Beyond Kupp, I don't know much about Johnson and Ebukam. I was a huge fan of Reynolds. He's also a bit rough around the edges, but he's a long strider who can climb over the top of defenses, win in the air, and has easy change of direction ability. Reynolds competes and has a chip on his shoulder.(gonna have to work on getting off the LOS and winning underneath won't be easy for him in the NFL)

On late Day 3, Smart and Price were two guys I really valued. Smart is a great scheme fit for Wade's defense. I think he'll stick around for awhile in the DL rotation. Plays with a high motor and is very disruptive. That's what Wade wants from his DLs. Price is a really intriguing guy because of his size and production. Being short both helps and hinders him. It hinders him in the run game, but he's strong enough to stack his block at the POA (just won't get off of it once engaged). As a pass rusher, it makes him a pain in the butt because he rushes so low to the ground that he gets underneath the tall OTs as he turns the corner. He may or may not pan out in the NFL, but I think he has more upside than a typical 7th round pick.

Sam Rogers is just a role player and STer. Seems like McVay wants a versatile lead blocker.

I'm very happy with what we did. They got the guy I identified early in the process as the player I felt we must have at WR along with a handful of other players whom I like that fit our scheme well.


Have a question for you jrry regarding the differences between Smith-Schuster and Kupp. I know who you like more and that's fair, but with Kupp turning 24 next month, and Schuster not turning 21 until late Nov, so essentially being 3 1/2 years younger, do you feel Juju might have a chance to reach Kupp's 'level' at some point in his career? They are both of similar build--Juju being a 1/2" shorter, yet 10lbs heavier--and both not being 40 'burners', but better than average Cones/Shuttle times--Kupp with admittedly a decidedly distinct advantage, but Juju still being very good for his size--which is why I ask the question.

I didn't have the opportunity to delve as deeply as normal this draft season, but seeing as you have, and have taken a keen eye to the WRs this year, I just wanted your take (informed non-Steeler) on Juju and whether you think he'll progress and be a better '#2' option than Bryant, Coates, or even Hunter, and if he has a chance to be a comparable WR to Kupp at some point.
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No. Ben's good, but he isn't one of the all-time greats.
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Jason_Bengal_Fl


Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ward4HOF"]
Iamcanadian wrote:


Anyway, my favorite drafts were:

Colts - Amazing the difference a GM can make; very smart draft.
Eagles - Good value picks, throughout
Redskins - Really like Allen and Anderson, and Sprinkle as well.
49ers - Shouldn't be allowed to have that many picks, and hit on 90% of them.
Bucs - It's like every pick from Rd 3 on, was a 1/2 Rd steal or better at a minimum, at least, according to most media 'big boards'.

Least Favorite:

Browns, Bengals, and Ravens - well because overall, they were solid drafts, and that gets annoying year in and year out. -sigh-



Shocked Shocked Shocked

Laughing
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Ward4HOF


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 5140
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Jason_Bengal_Fl"]
Ward4HOF wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:


Anyway, my favorite drafts were:

Colts - Amazing the difference a GM can make; very smart draft.
Eagles - Good value picks, throughout
Redskins - Really like Allen and Anderson, and Sprinkle as well.
49ers - Shouldn't be allowed to have that many picks, and hit on 90% of them.
Bucs - It's like every pick from Rd 3 on, was a 1/2 Rd steal or better at a minimum, at least, according to most media 'big boards'.

Least Favorite:

Browns, Bengals, and Ravens - well because overall, they were solid drafts, and that gets annoying year in and year out. -sigh-



Shocked Shocked Shocked

Laughing


The last three years, the Brown have had solid classes, and have picked up loads of extra picks. I know last year they screwed the pooch a little bit, but, they still got some decent talent with Coleman, Ogbah, Nassib, and some other contributors from their 14 picks. Nothing spectacular, and yes, Kessler is not inspiring, but far from a poor draft class, I'd say.

In 2015, they also picked up a few starters, so while they are slow to develop, they've had good classes, whether you choose to recognize that or not, is entirely up to you, but no one doubts that they likely had the best draft of the AFC North this year...so far, we'll see how the players turn out.
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No. Ben's good, but he isn't one of the all-time greats.
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stl4life07


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 4185
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MemphisEagles wrote:
My top 3:

Colts-I think they nailed it out of the park with their first three picks, especially the first two. Both Malik Hooker and Quincy Wilson were great values at positions that are big needs. I also like Marlon Mack and Anthony Walker. So they got five players I like without any reaching.

Panthers-I love McCaffrey, and I also really like Samuel. Having both is awesome because theoretically, if both are in the huddle the defense has no idea what is coming. It could be a jumbo set, a five wide, something in between. One back set with McCaffrey in the backfield and Samuel in the slot or vice versa. Then I like Moton and Elder.

Browns-I like all three dline men they got, and I like all three first rounders. So that's five players I like because Garret falls in both categories. Kizer is meh in my books but he's worth the risk in the late second.


Worst:

Giants-Not even being a hater because the Skins barely missed my top drafts. But I don't love anyone they drafted. Engram was a reach. Davis Webb is the only guy I like, so I guess a bad draft is worth a future QB if that's how it plays out.


Saints-I think Cooks for Ramcyzk is a fail. The only player they got I like is Kamara, and they didn't address pass rusher in a good draft until the seventh.

Chiefs-Not a Mahomes guy, so I hated that trade up. Then the only guy they took I like is Jehu Chesson.


I think its unfair to just say straight up Cooks for Ramcyzk. At least wait a few years to see how Ramcyzk pans out because Cooks already is established to some degree. Any pick the Saints made with the pick they got from Cooks would be a failure now because they are all unknown NFL prospects. Cooks had 3 seasons worth of success. The only way I could say the Saints fail is if the rumors were true that the Titans offered the 18th overall pick to the Saints for Cooks but the Saints turned it down. By turning it down they essentially missed out on Reuben Foster. They wanted Foster at 32 but the Niners jumped them at pick 31. No way the Niners jump them at pick 17 had the Saints traded Cooks to the Titans for pick 18. I overall liked what the Saints did because from what I heard, they wanted Mahomes at 11 and Foster at 32. Had they drafted those guys with taking Kamara in the 2nd round, I wouldve been thinking they passed on alot of talented cornerbacks and didnt get any talented pass rushers. So in theory, what they Saints wasnt able to do made their draft look good. Lattimore and Foster wouldve been great, but Lattimore and Ramcyzk is still very impressive to me.

As for the Chiefs, you might not be a Mahomes guy but I trust Andy Reid when it comes to QBs. Seems like every QB he has touched turned into gold. I didnt trust Mahomes in just any situation but in KC i love him there. Obviously Alex Smith cant get KC over the hump in terms of being serious Superbowl contenders. Yes KC could win the AFC West. Yes they could win a playoff game, but as far as winning the AFC Championship and going to the Superbowl and possibly winning it, no they wont do it with Alex Smith. Andy Reid knows it and thats why he traded up for Mahomes. I think Mahomes gives KC a better chance to get over that hump in the future than Smith does. I have no problem with that so thats why I really like what KC did from that standpoint.
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