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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3531
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: reply Reply with quote

oksteeler wrote:
The draft is being sold as a "fan experience" and so every draft grade and critique is fair game, so here's mine:

The overall draft was not an immediate impact draft. We failed at trading down in the first, when we should have and probably could have, so we could take an injury flagged player. I like Watt but Willis was also available and a 4-7 spot trade down would have netted an extra pick. C+


I feel like a broken record. Who knows what went on or didn't go on with potential trade talks.

oksteeler wrote:
JuJu was a solid pick IF he can become the #2 or #3 receiver THIS year.


He's going to be a contributor this year. He's so different from every other WR we have.

oksteeler wrote:
Sutton good pick, but not a boundary corner. I realize that we don't want another rookie starting on the boundary THIS year (3 youngsters in one secondary spells toast), but he isn't even the right frame to become a solid boundary corner??


Again broken record:
Sutton 5'11" 188
NFL Average Starting CB 5'11" 190

How the heck is he "not the right frame". No one has answered that.

oksteeler wrote:
Conner ?? when did we make the draft into a chick flick? this was just a feel good pick, a good player drafted 2 rounds too high with better players available.


Watch the take before he had cancer and you see Bell Jr.

oksteeler wrote:
Dobbs might become our new long term backup, but he played in the weak side of the SEC on a talented team and couldn't win.


If by talented you mean highest drop rate in the NCAA (or one of them) and one of the worse RB total yards....then yes talented.

oksteeler wrote:
Allen is a good pick IF they can keep him and develop him. I don't want to see him become a star for someone else because we have too many corners on the roster now.


I agree but CB is so thin I don't see a way they let him out the door.

oksteeler wrote:
long snapper????


Again, rumors of Warren wanting to step away.

oksteeler wrote:
Adams good value for a guy that we hope will develop for us.

missed out on..
Kevin King
Desmond King
Bucky Hodges
Samaje Perine
Wayne Gallman
James Willis
etc.


Well....now we can say we overrated a lot of those guys because some of them (DKing, Hodges, Perine, Gallman) were passed over 4-6 times before being taken, and some here wanted those guys in the 3rd!!!


oksteeler wrote:
Overall too many players that look to contribute possibly in 2-3 years. Why so many projects? The Big Ben is a ticking clock of retirement and this wasn't the draft that has us thinking we just caught up with the Pats.


This was a classic Steelers draft. Bunch of guys who wont be starters til year 3, but can all give you something right now.

Watt - Situational pass rusher and blitzer
Juju - Possession WR. Hopefully they use him on 2nd&1 and 3rd&1 as opposed to the 50 yard bomb.
Sutton - Kick and PR ability, dime packages, hopefully nickle by the end of the year.
Conner - Short yardage back. Will be to Bell what they were hoping Blount would be
Dobbs - There's a chance he unseats Landry THIS YEAR! And he has a lot of the things at the QB position you can't teach.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10128
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: reply Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:


Again broken record:
Sutton 5'11" 188
NFL Average Starting CB 5'11" 190

How the heck is he "not the right frame". No one has answered that.



30" arms

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/cameron-sutton

Arm length matters if you can play press man vs off man. With that arm length Sutton is a off -man only. Thus Willie Gay.

Why I am not happy is that off man does not work vs the Pats. Press man and a pass rush does.
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"You build with draft choices. You find people with talents adaptable to your plans and then you teach them to do things the way we do them." - Chuck Noll
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3531
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: reply Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
warfelg wrote:


Again broken record:
Sutton 5'11" 188
NFL Average Starting CB 5'11" 190

How the heck is he "not the right frame". No one has answered that.



30" arms

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/cameron-sutton

Arm length matters if you can play press man vs off man. With that arm length Sutton is a off -man only. Thus Willie Gay.

Why I am not happy is that off man does not work vs the Pats. Press man and a pass rush does.


And by most NFL measurements 30 inches is average CB arm length.

Arm length is only part of the equation when talking press coverage. Strength, leverage, hand placement, speed are all part of it too.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3531
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look at it this way:

Cameron Sutton in every way is an exact replica of Willie Gay. To me that's a sign that that size, speed, twitch and style of play is what they want from their slot corner.

Part of the issue this past year was that Gay has lost 2 steps, couldn't keep up with anyone, and Butler had Timmons (who's also lost a step) be the one to take over the slot duties.

Sutton being a younger quicker copy of Gay is going to be a good thing. We all loved Willie Gay in his prime.

But I guess he's too short, too light, too small to be effective too.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4862
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: reply Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
jebrick wrote:
warfelg wrote:


Again broken record:
Sutton 5'11" 188
NFL Average Starting CB 5'11" 190

How the heck is he "not the right frame". No one has answered that.



30" arms

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/cameron-sutton

Arm length matters if you can play press man vs off man. With that arm length Sutton is a off -man only. Thus Willie Gay.

Why I am not happy is that off man does not work vs the Pats. Press man and a pass rush does.


And by most NFL measurements 30 inches is average CB arm length.

Arm length is only part of the equation when talking press coverage. Strength, leverage, hand placement, speed are all part of it too.

I just don't think he has size or speed to play press. If you're gonna be average sized you better have sub 4.5 speed. Imo anyways. He's gonna be an Off Man slot guy which he'll do fine playing.
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warfelg wrote:
Quote:
why does KC have Houston (who is returning from a knee) cover AB on a crucial play? THAT makes no sense

They Butlered themselves. Laughing
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10128
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
I look at it this way:

Cameron Sutton in every way is an exact replica of Willie Gay. To me that's a sign that that size, speed, twitch and style of play is what they want from their slot corner.

Part of the issue this past year was that Gay has lost 2 steps, couldn't keep up with anyone, and Butler had Timmons (who's also lost a step) be the one to take over the slot duties.

Sutton being a younger quicker copy of Gay is going to be a good thing. We all loved Willie Gay in his prime.

But I guess he's too short, too light, too small to be effective too.


If this were 2008 we would be golden.
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theironcitykid


Joined: 29 Jan 2015
Posts: 233
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: reply Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
warfelg wrote:


Again broken record:
Sutton 5'11" 188
NFL Average Starting CB 5'11" 190

How the heck is he "not the right frame". No one has answered that.



30" arms

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/cameron-sutton

Arm length matters if you can play press man vs off man. With that arm length Sutton is a off -man only. Thus Willie Gay.

Why I am not happy is that off man does not work vs the Pats. Press man and a pass rush does.


This is a well-written and intelligent response. I'm chalking up Sutton as Curtis Brown. But I hope he can contribute on special teams

Do you know who I think can play press man? The converted WR Brian Allen. 6'3" with 34" arms and 4.4 speed. Now we're talking....
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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4862
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: reply Reply with quote

theironcitykid wrote:
jebrick wrote:
warfelg wrote:


Again broken record:
Sutton 5'11" 188
NFL Average Starting CB 5'11" 190

How the heck is he "not the right frame". No one has answered that.



30" arms

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/cameron-sutton

Arm length matters if you can play press man vs off man. With that arm length Sutton is a off -man only. Thus Willie Gay.

Why I am not happy is that off man does not work vs the Pats. Press man and a pass rush does.


This is a well-written and intelligent response. I'm chalking up Sutton as Curtis Brown. But I hope he can contribute on special teams

Do you know who I think can play press man? The converted WR Brian Allen. 6'3" with 34" arms and 4.4 speed. Now we're talking....

Well he's a slot guy. You don't usually press in the slot. He'll be fine there.
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warfelg wrote:
Quote:
why does KC have Houston (who is returning from a knee) cover AB on a crucial play? THAT makes no sense

They Butlered themselves. Laughing
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6778
Location: In your head
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: reply Reply with quote

theironcitykid wrote:
jebrick wrote:
warfelg wrote:


Again broken record:
Sutton 5'11" 188
NFL Average Starting CB 5'11" 190

How the heck is he "not the right frame". No one has answered that.



30" arms

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/cameron-sutton

Arm length matters if you can play press man vs off man. With that arm length Sutton is a off -man only. Thus Willie Gay.

Why I am not happy is that off man does not work vs the Pats. Press man and a pass rush does.


This is a well-written and intelligent response. I'm chalking up Sutton as Curtis Brown. But I hope he can contribute on special teams

Do you know who I think can play press man? The converted WR Brian Allen. 6'3" with 34" arms and 4.4 speed. Now we're talking....


Might want to watch his film first. I worry about his feet and his quickness/speed. He always bails and needs to redshirt and learn the position.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10128
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allen is Ike Taylor with better measurables. It took Ike 3 seasons to learn the position.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3531
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
Allen is Ike Taylor with better measurables. It took Ike 3 seasons to learn the position.


So we got the potential for a Ike clone, a potential for a Willie Gay clone, and Artie Burns who might be better than both. If they all reach their potential this could be good.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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SMashMouthMike


Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 5552
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know, but I bet the nickel man corner, that we have not had and tried to acquire(Golson, the philly guy, Gilbert and now Sutton) is intended to stick onto a guy like edelman. He'd be better than Gay, Cockrell, timmons or whoever else we've had do that in games past.
I still don't think we did enough to slow those TE seams and Edelmen down, but ...perhaps we have more tools than we think. Only one way of knowing.
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1BackInBlackFan


Joined: 29 Mar 2010
Posts: 11291
Location: 4 wins, PA
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
Allen is Ike Taylor with better measurables. It took Ike 3 seasons to learn the position.


That's a good comparison. Taylor was raw when he came out of college. I just hope they can develop something they haven't done with late round CBs over the years.
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The Curtain


Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 765
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A -. Mostly for the first two picks. But they also did a pretty good job of grabbing some potential sleepers.

Watt - Love everything about this pick. Can't believe the cynicism on this board. Why does anyone think he's not going to see a lot of playing next season? Who is going to play over him? A near 40 year old man? He's just a great athlete with only one year at OLB? Okay....that's GOOD. So we get to mold him into the player we want him to be. Chuck Knoll used to say something about this. And again...we were picking at number 30. There isn't a whole lot of "elite" talent left by the time you get to 30. You're betting on yourself at that point, that your scouting department is that good.

JuJu - He was a first rounder in some mocks I seen, and seems like he very well could be a first round talent. I know some are like "WR in second??? Are you nuts???" thinking we are just so deep at WR....but spoiler alert: We are NOT deep at WR. WR was a very pivotal need with this draft. Because WR is something that truly can put this team over the top. Look at those games where we stalled last year because we had to rely on junk like Rogers and Hamilton and whatever other practice squad'er is in there for depth purposes. Outside of AB, we lacked a TRUE playmaker in our WR core. Let alone a reliable target. And no, I have zero faith in Bryant, so anything we get out of him is just a bonus. Coates sucks. We needed WR more than a lot of people think. More importantly, if a dynamite WR prospect like JuJu was available to us in the 2nd, compared to meh CBs that we could get in the later rounds, who isn't going to make that pick? This was a great pick. And it gives us an excellent insurance policy to Bryant's idiocy, which is the only stat he leads the league in.

Both of our CB selections - I'm just going to put these two together, and I'm not going to review either player's scouting report or anything because it's simply like this: The Steelers don't value CB highly. They rely on front seven and pass rush. If there was a guy with elite talents on the board in the first? I'm sure they'd have taken a hard look at him, but I don't think they saw anyone they liked that much over a Watt (or JuJu) to justify using an earlier pick. They picked two guys who would be of greater help to two other areas of need, and went with two projects at CB that they can try to mold and fit into their system. It worked with drafts/FAs for them for decades now with Ike, McFadden, Townsend, Gay, etc.. We won SBs with those guys despite them not being superstars. If the STRENGTH of our defense, which is the front seven, is doing its job, then we'll be just fine.

Dobbs - Didn't really get the point of this. I would have liked some DL depth by this point. But I guess it's the Steelers trying to find their version of Dak Prescott. The guy scores off the charts character-wise, so maybe that translates. I doubt it, but what the hell, it's not like it was a pick that usually ends up panning out for people anyways.

Connor - Fan service, nothing more. Didn't like this. But you know, to be optimistic, if Le'Veon can give him a few pointers and help him along, you never know. I don't mind getting depth at RB, but the idea of Bell being out for the season and Connor being one of the feature backs is kind of horrifying.


So yeah, call me a homer again because this was a total fan-service draft....but it worked on me. I'm very optimistic about it. Way more optimistic than I have been in their past few drafts.
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oksteeler


Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 93
Location: broken arrow,ok
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject: reply Reply with quote

great debate on our draft that leads to a few majority opinions:

Watt could be an immediate impact, but most of us seem concerned with his injury history (I personally like the pick but would have preferred Willis)

JuJu should also make an immediate impact as possibly the #3 or #4 receiver, translation he should see the field in rotations and in 4-5 receiver sets. His presence could provide a little more spark for an offense that did bog down a little late in the season and in the playoffs (note KC field goal game)

Sutton should be a good nickel corner that contributes significantly before the season ends. He just doesn't possess the size-speed combination to match up the bigger receivers on the outside that are growing larger and faster each year.

Conner was great pre-cancer and has great potential to return to form, but most see this as a pick too early to please the fanbase. Reality is that pleasing the fanbase is best done by winning and beating the Pats.

Dobbs might/should free us from the shackles of Landry being our #2 for the next 7 years. (I'm from Oklahoma, wife is an alum, but definitely not a homer).

Allen is a great looking specimen that we all hope to see develop in black and gold.

I just don't see this draft moving the needle in the short term quite enough to get us ahead of the Pats, but maybe that was an unfair hope coming into the draft. At this point it will require a superb effort by the players, excellent development by the youngsters and some *&*^* creativity by our defensive coaching staff to win the Lombardi next season.
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