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Good draft should cost Loomis/Payton their jobs!
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Jlowe22


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have higher hopes for 2017. We were really close to being a playoff team last year, but for a few awful special teams plays and a tough schedule. Now thats no excuse, but I certainly saw improvement. Unlike the year before where we gave up a 116 passer rating against and had what was probably the worst defense in NFL history.

The problem is that our division is now a powerhouse and I can could see us missing the playoffs with a 10-6 or 11-5 record due to tiebreakers. And I don't think we'll be good enough for 12-4 or better. If everything works out though, I certainly think we have the capability of making the playoffs unless Brees falls off cliff.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlowe22 wrote:
I have higher hopes for 2017. We were really close to being a playoff team last year, but for a few awful special teams plays and a tough schedule. Now thats no excuse, but I certainly saw improvement. Unlike the year before where we gave up a 116 passer rating against and had what was probably the worst defense in NFL history.

The problem is that our division is now a powerhouse and I can could see us missing the playoffs with a 10-6 or 11-5 record due to tiebreakers. And I don't think we'll be good enough for 12-4 or better. If everything works out though, I certainly think we have the capability of making the playoffs unless Brees falls off cliff.


Based on our schedule and our improvement, I think we should be 10-6. But that's all I expect.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raves wrote:
Jlowe22 wrote:
I have higher hopes for 2017. We were really close to being a playoff team last year, but for a few awful special teams plays and a tough schedule. Now thats no excuse, but I certainly saw improvement. Unlike the year before where we gave up a 116 passer rating against and had what was probably the worst defense in NFL history.

The problem is that our division is now a powerhouse and I can could see us missing the playoffs with a 10-6 or 11-5 record due to tiebreakers. And I don't think we'll be good enough for 12-4 or better. If everything works out though, I certainly think we have the capability of making the playoffs unless Brees falls off cliff.


Based on our schedule and our improvement, I think we should be 10-6. But that's all I expect.


I fall into that trap every year for past 3 seasons... 8-8 is the best I'm giving them. Yes they will be improved in the secondary but these guys ARE rookies and will make mistakes.

The edge rusher position will be improved but not tremendously...

The offensive will be less explosive and will likley be more run based in theory but I doubt Payton has the patience to see that through regardless how the team is now structured. One 2 yard loss on 2nd and 5 and the running game will be abandoned just like it always is.

I really don't believe that it's as simple as saying "we have a top 3 offense so just improve the defense a little bit and we're good". I feel the offensive sastistics have been fools goal recently. This offense stalled in many games and posted great numbers in the 4th quarter of losses. It's not as consistent as many think it is.

8-8 until they prove me wrong.

They'll go 8-8 and this front office will talkin up how they saw growth from young players and about how close we are.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Raves wrote:
Jlowe22 wrote:
I have higher hopes for 2017. We were really close to being a playoff team last year, but for a few awful special teams plays and a tough schedule. Now thats no excuse, but I certainly saw improvement. Unlike the year before where we gave up a 116 passer rating against and had what was probably the worst defense in NFL history.

The problem is that our division is now a powerhouse and I can could see us missing the playoffs with a 10-6 or 11-5 record due to tiebreakers. And I don't think we'll be good enough for 12-4 or better. If everything works out though, I certainly think we have the capability of making the playoffs unless Brees falls off cliff.


Based on our schedule and our improvement, I think we should be 10-6. But that's all I expect.


I fall into that trap every year for past 3 seasons... 8-8 is the best I'm giving them. Yes they will be improved in the secondary but these guys ARE rookies and will make mistakes.

The edge rusher position will be improved but not tremendously...

The offensive will be less explosive and will likley be more run based in theory but I doubt Payton has the patience to see that through regardless how the team is now structured. One 2 yard loss on 2nd and 5 and the running game will be abandoned just like it always is.

I really don't believe that it's as simple as saying "we have a top 3 offense so just improve the defense a little bit and we're good". I feel the offensive sastistics have been fools goal recently. This offense stalled in many games and posted great numbers in the 4th quarter of losses. It's not as consistent as many think it is.

8-8 until they prove me wrong.

They'll go 8-8 and this front office will talkin up how they saw growth from young players and about how close we are.


The only rookie I really expect to do much is Lattimore and that's going to be a huge boost. But more so is the 2nd year guys and guys that were looking promising last year before injury/after injury. I think as long as health remains on par with the league instead near the bottom of the league, we should be improved enough on defense where our offense can carry us for those couple extra wins. Not that we are going to go from the worst defense to middle of the pack, but if you look at the stats from last year, the Falcons were #1 in PPG with 33.8 and their defense was in the bottom of the league at 25.4 PPG given up. We were #2 in PPG at 29.1 and 31st at 28.4 PPG give up, if we can even drop it by 3 PPG while keeping our offense, which should be expected if Brees is healthy, that can translate to the 3 extra wins.
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Spartica4Real


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe if you remove special teams and defensive TDs given up we go down to 27th. There was definite improvement with our defense last year. It goes up at the same trajectory and we're a playoff team if our offense doesn't fall apart.

Our offense did fine against two of the top three defenses we played in Seattle and Denver, there's no "fool's gold" there. Yeah we had a couple of bad games offensively, can't expect it to remain perfect over 16 games. That's not fool's gold.
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartica4Real wrote:
I believe if you remove special teams and defensive TDs given up we go down to 27th. There was definite improvement with our defense last year. It goes up at the same trajectory and we're a playoff team if our offense doesn't fall apart.

Our offense did fine against two of the top three defenses we played in Seattle and Denver, there's no "fool's gold" there. Yeah we had a couple of bad games offensively, can't expect it to remain perfect over 16 games. That's not fool's gold.
Never been worse than the 6th offense in the last decade, there's nothing fools gold about the Bree's/Payton offense

Last edited by domepatrol91 on Fri May 05, 2017 11:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think 8-8 or 9-7 is likely.
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Spartica4Real


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barring Brees injury/fall off a cliff I say 7-9 is worst case and 11-5 is best case. I predict 9-7.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

domepatrol91 wrote:
Spartica4Real wrote:
I believe if you remove special teams and defensive TDs given up we go down to 27th. There was definite improvement with our defense last year. It goes up at the same trajectory and we're a playoff team if our offense doesn't fall apart.

Our offense did fine against two of the top three defenses we played in Seattle and Denver, there's no "fool's gold" there. Yeah we had a couple of bad games offensively, can't expect it to remain perfect over 16 games. That's not fool's gold.
Never been worse than the 6th offense in the last decade, there's nothing fools gold about the Bree's/Payton offense


Great offense don't get me wrong but if you don't believe that this teams offensive statistics aren't inflated with garbage 4th quarter stats then your kidding yourself. While other winning teams are grinding out the clock with the running game in the 4th quarter Brees and company continue to remain in shootouts till the very end, most of the time ending up on the wrong end of the score board. Typically the opposing team has the upper hand and in prevent defense in these situations which further inhance the bloated statics I'm talking about.

Don't get me wrong... they still have to put up the numbers but the fact is that as long as their in the position to be putting up those numbers we love to throw out, the longer we will keep losing games in the 4th quarter.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we at least agree that at very best the Saints are below average at identifying and developing defensive talent?

Below is the list of defensive players drafted by this regime since 2006...


Roman Harper - + good player, great leader
Rob Ninkovich - + but cut him, good player for Pats
Josh Lay
Usama Young
David Jones
Marvin Mitchell
Sedrick Ellis
Tracy Porter - + decent player, super bowl hero, never got to 2nd contract
Demario Pressley
Malcolm Jenkins - + good player for Eagles, opted for Byrd instead
Chip Vaughn
Stanley Arnoux
Patrick Robinson
Al Woods
Cameron Jordan - + borderline elite player, this regimes saving grace
Martez Wilson
Johnny Patrick
Greg Romeus
Nate Bussey
Akiem Hicks
Corey White
Kenny Vaccaro - + good but inconsistent player, will they resign?
John Jenkins
Rufus Johnson
Stanley Jean Baptiste
Khairi Forte
Vinnie Sunseri
Roland Powell
Stephone Anthony
Hau'Oli Kikaha
PJ Williams
Davis Tull
Tyler Davision - + solid starting NT
Damien Swann
Sheldon Rankins - + appears to be a solid pick, more time needed
Von Bell
David Onyemata

Time will tell...
Marshon Lattimore
Marcus Williams
Alex Anzalone
Trey Hendrickson
Al-Quad Muhammad


I'm just saying that over a 10 year history of this franchise trying desperately to rebuild this defense... these are the facts, the above players are what this front office gave whatever D.C. That was here to work with. Now can you see why I'd be and am sckeptical of anything this front office does or says about incoming defensive talent?

Sure Lattimore will be good but let's be honest... the top cornerback fell into there laps at 11, that pick was easy for anyone to make!

It's the meat of the draft... Williams, Anzalone, Hendrickson and Muhammad that concerns me. I'm sure Ramczyk and Kamara will pan out because Payton knows offense and how to use it. Defensively however... well the proofs in the pudding.
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Spartica4Real


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Can we at least agree that at very best the Saints are below average at identifying and developing defensive talent?

Below is the list of defensive players drafted by this regime since 2006...


Roman Harper - + good player, great leader
Rob Ninkovich - + but cut him, good player for Pats
Josh Lay
Usama Young
David Jones
Marvin Mitchell
Sedrick Ellis
Tracy Porter - + decent player, super bowl hero, never got to 2nd contract
Demario Pressley
Malcolm Jenkins - + good player for Eagles, opted for Byrd instead
Chip Vaughn
Stanley Arnoux
Patrick Robinson
Al Woods
Cameron Jordan - + borderline elite player, this regimes saving grace
Martez Wilson
Johnny Patrick
Greg Romeus
Nate Bussey
Akiem Hicks
Corey White
Kenny Vaccaro - + good but inconsistent player, will they resign?
John Jenkins
Rufus Johnson
Stanley Jean Baptiste
Khairi Forte
Vinnie Sunseri
Roland Powell
Stephone Anthony
Hau'Oli Kikaha
PJ Williams
Davis Tull
Tyler Davision - + solid starting NT
Damien Swann
Sheldon Rankins - + appears to be a solid pick, more time needed
Von Bell
David Onyemata

Time will tell...
Marshon Lattimore
Marcus Williams
Alex Anzalone
Trey Hendrickson
Al-Quad Muhammad


I'm just saying that over a 10 year history of this franchise trying desperately to rebuild this defense... these are the facts, the above players are what this front office gave whatever D.C. That was here to work with. Now can you see why I'd be and am sckeptical of anything this front office does or says about incoming defensive talent?

Sure Lattimore will be good but let's be honest... the top cornerback fell into there laps at 11, that pick was easy for anyone to make!

It's the meat of the draft... Williams, Anzalone, Hendrickson and Muhammad that concerns me. I'm sure Ramczyk and Kamara will pan out because Payton knows offense and how to use it. Defensively however... well the proofs in the pudding.


Really? Gonna put grades on the players from the last two drafts already? Just to use one example, PJ Williams. This post is talking about evaluating and developing defensive talent. He's been injured for 2 years and has played in very few games. How are you gonna count him? And any other player ruined because of injuries for that matter. Injuries aren't predictable in 90% of players, those shouldn't count.

But Kikaha looked good year 1 and missed all of year two. PJ Williams has been hurt. Swann had a seriously bad consussion and was hurt. Anthony can still turn it around. Vonn Bell has looked good in his time so far. It's too early to judge anyone from the last two drafts (well last 3 counting the one that just happened).
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartica4Real wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Can we at least agree that at very best the Saints are below average at identifying and developing defensive talent?

Below is the list of defensive players drafted by this regime since 2006...


Roman Harper - + good player, great leader
Rob Ninkovich - + but cut him, good player for Pats
Josh Lay
Usama Young
David Jones
Marvin Mitchell
Sedrick Ellis
Tracy Porter - + decent player, super bowl hero, never got to 2nd contract
Demario Pressley
Malcolm Jenkins - + good player for Eagles, opted for Byrd instead
Chip Vaughn
Stanley Arnoux
Patrick Robinson
Al Woods
Cameron Jordan - + borderline elite player, this regimes saving grace
Martez Wilson
Johnny Patrick
Greg Romeus
Nate Bussey
Akiem Hicks
Corey White
Kenny Vaccaro - + good but inconsistent player, will they resign?
John Jenkins
Rufus Johnson
Stanley Jean Baptiste
Khairi Forte
Vinnie Sunseri
Roland Powell
Stephone Anthony
Hau'Oli Kikaha
PJ Williams
Davis Tull
Tyler Davision - + solid starting NT
Damien Swann
Sheldon Rankins - + appears to be a solid pick, more time needed
Von Bell
David Onyemata

Time will tell...
Marshon Lattimore
Marcus Williams
Alex Anzalone
Trey Hendrickson
Al-Quad Muhammad


I'm just saying that over a 10 year history of this franchise trying desperately to rebuild this defense... these are the facts, the above players are what this front office gave whatever D.C. That was here to work with. Now can you see why I'd be and am sckeptical of anything this front office does or says about incoming defensive talent?

Sure Lattimore will be good but let's be honest... the top cornerback fell into there laps at 11, that pick was easy for anyone to make!

It's the meat of the draft... Williams, Anzalone, Hendrickson and Muhammad that concerns me. I'm sure Ramczyk and Kamara will pan out because Payton knows offense and how to use it. Defensively however... well the proofs in the pudding.


Really? Gonna put grades on the players from the last two drafts already? Just to use one example, PJ Williams. This post is talking about evaluating and developing defensive talent. He's been injured for 2 years and has played in very few games. How are you gonna count him? And any other player ruined because of injuries for that matter. Injuries aren't predictable in 90% of players, those shouldn't count.

But Kikaha looked good year 1 and missed all of year two. PJ Williams has been hurt. Swann had a seriously bad consussion and was hurt. Anthony can still turn it around. Vonn Bell has looked good in his time so far. It's too early to judge anyone from the last two drafts (well last 3 counting the one that just happened).


That's why I never said anything about them... if I had it would have been imcomplete and I NEVER used the word ruined.

As far as the injuries, whether you feel it's fair or not you hear it all the time that the best ability a player has Is his availability (a fav quote of Payton's) and guys like PJ Williams, Damian Swann and Kikaha simply haven't proven so far that they have that ability. So I'm just suppose to give that a pass? This isn't a popularity contest here. Reguardless how or why these guys were hurt the fact is that they were hurt. Now focus that on the prospects we drafted this year and their injury history... that's not concerning?

Also... why only bring up those guys? Because they help make your argument! What about guys like Sunseri , Powell & Tull? Guys who had injury concerns in college but was also overlooked by this staff the same way with guys like Anzalone and others but we don't mention them because they already flamed out.

I'm just pointing out the facts... like it it not but this staff and front office track record with defenders isn't very good. Sure, Williams can come back and so could kikaha and contribute or they can be like Sunseri, Powell & Tull and flame out. We really don't know but if we're going by what history tells us will happen odds aren't too good.

Just saying
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Raves


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only issue with that injuries should only be counted against the team if the player had a history of them prior being drafted. So if Lattimore's hamstrings become an issue again, though it seems they figured it out what needed to be done to keep it from being an issue at Ohio State, or Anzalone continues to dislocate his shoulder, possible though broken arms etc can't be accounted for, then yes those should be counted against the team.

But for Patrick Robinson, Sedrick Ellis, etc who really didn't have health concerns coming into the league but to have experienced them once they enter is just bad luck. It's not liek with the Browns where you expect players to get injured, get staph, and then never return(I know that's not the case anymore but still funny).
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raves wrote:
The only issue with that injuries should only be counted against the team if the player had a history of them prior being drafted. So if Lattimore's hamstrings become an issue again, though it seems they figured it out what needed to be done to keep it from being an issue at Ohio State, or Anzalone continues to dislocate his shoulder, possible though broken arms etc can't be accounted for, then yes those should be counted against the team.

But for Patrick Robinson, Sedrick Ellis, etc who really didn't have health concerns coming into the league but to have experienced them once they enter is just bad luck. It's not liek with the Browns where you expect players to get injured, get staph, and then never return(I know that's not the case anymore but still funny).


True... I agree

Then again sone people just bust for different reasons.

Ellis's lack of measurables (length mostly) caused a issue for him in the pros and rumors were that he lost his love of the game and flamed out. Robinson dropped to the end of the 1st round despite great measurables for the position due to the fact that he was so inconsistent at FSU and he carried that inconsistency into the league throughout his career.

Others like Tull had the shoulder injury when drafted... never recovered. So did Powell with the ACL's. Kikhaha had two ACL tears while in college. Stephone Anthony was rumored to have questionable inscincts at Clemson and that reallly came to light in the NFL.

It isn't always injuries... these guys can flame out of many different reasons and their is no perfect prospect but for a team already dealing with the issue of trying to overcome injuries it was odd to see so many players drafted with injury issues.

Still... I have high hopes for many of the players drafted since Jeff Ireland arrived, as long as they can stay healthy but staying healthy is part of the job. Just like learning the playbook and everything else, it's part if it so it has to be factored in some kind of way.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys,

I don't leave my self-imposed 49ers hole often, but I wanted to come here and make a statement about one of your picks - and one closely associated with my team (since we traded it to you).

3 years from now - when analysts go back and do the "2017 Re-Draft" - I feel pretty confident that Alvin Kamara is going to be a top 15 pick. They might just play it safe and give him to you at #11. I tend to be pretty good with RB predictions, and Kamara is my favorite in quite a while. I watch him - and I see young Frank Gore again. And I would not compare just anyone to my favorite all-time player.

I just really think you guys got the best mid-round pick in the draft, and even with the devaluation of RBs, I feel confident you guys aren't going to be upset that you technically spent a 2nd round pick on him a few years from now. He gets to learn from an all-time great in year one, and like Gore - I would not be surprised if he finds himself as the unquestioned starter by year 2.
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