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Good draft should cost Loomis/Payton their jobs!
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SWATcha


Joined: 10 Sep 2008
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Location: Sacto, CA.
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

domepatrol91 wrote:
So they were conservative with their cap space and signed some good value deals, then in the draft they didn't reach on players of need but drafted BPA or targeted high value players that were dropping.

They finally did what we wanted and now we're ready to run them out of town months before our first preseason game?


I've been ready to run them out for about 3 years now. I think everything Saints is stale right now. They need a new vision and a new direction.

As for the draft, my one hang up, and I think it's one that cuts straight to the core of the problem; They were willing to trade a future 2nd for a RB, but they weren't willing to swing a deal and move up a couple spots for Tak (whom they supposedly coveted) or Foster? Makes ZERO sense to me and speaks volumes of this front office.
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SWATcha


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2017/4/29/15442116/undrafted-free-agent-signings-tracker-2017-nfl-draft

Anyone else see the Saints UDFA signings? 12 guys so far, 8 of them on the offensive side of the ball.
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kelsobob


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SWATcha wrote:
http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2017/4/29/15442116/undrafted-free-agent-signings-tracker-2017-nfl-draft

Anyone else see the Saints UDFA signings? 12 guys so far, 8 of them on the offensive side of the ball.

Isnt that number predicated on acceptance? We aren't privy to how many offers were extended so it's hard to know if offense or defense was the focal point.
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kelsobob


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was also on the fire Payton and the FO train the last two years. It's hard for me to understand how a team can't put a defense on the field where a modicum of competence is possible. 3 coordinators, multiple scheme changes, horrible free agent contracts, all within 5 seasons.
How can anyone expect drafted players to excel if you're changing the scheme for which said players were drafted. Position groups continuing to suck year after year yet replacing that coach is an incomprehensible act.
With that said, after the firing of substandard coaches this offseason, I'm optimistic that success is possible this season.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

domepatrol91 wrote:
So they were conservative with their cap space and signed some good value deals, then in the draft they didn't reach on players of need but drafted BPA or targeted high value players that were dropping.

They finally did what we wanted and now we're ready to run them out of town months before our first preseason game?


im trying to develop more trust within this front office and staff... I truly am. My issues comes from a multitude of things that I have against this staff, not this class. That's my deal and it comes out in things I post at times. I understand this was a good class and your right that it finally seems they're doing many of the things we all been asking for but there is a lot of redundancy going on here and regardless how we look at it, whether it's saying give them credit for owning past mistakes or chalking it up to not all draft picks pan out... the fact of the matter is that mistakes are still being made.

Look... I loved the Ramczyk pick and I fully understand the need. However we heard this song and dance from Payton in 2015 with the Peat selection and that's just one of many continual issues going on here. I want to believe that this front office has turned the corner and I am high on this class but I was also high on the 2015 class and now that we're at a point where a fair grade can be assessed on it, it isn't real positive to be honest. I just don't want to continue to get caught up in praising these guys for mediocrity... I hope they prove me wrong, I hope this class excels on the field... I really do and I feel they will but if they end up like the 2015 class (below average to average) then that simply just isn't good enough and this regimes chances should be all used up.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kelsobob wrote:
I was also on the fire Payton and the FO train the last two years. It's hard for me to understand how a team can't put a defense on the field where a modicum of competence is possible. 3 coordinators, multiple scheme changes, horrible free agent contracts, all within 5 seasons.
How can anyone expect drafted players to excel if you're changing the scheme for which said players were drafted. Position groups continuing to suck year after year yet replacing that coach is an incomprehensible act.
With that said, after the firing of substandard coaches this offseason, I'm optimistic that success is possible this season.


Boy... Payton always has that scapegoat lined up doesn't he? Question, if the Saints fall flat in 2017... who will it be this time?
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kelsobob


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
kelsobob wrote:
I was also on the fire Payton and the FO train the last two years. It's hard for me to understand how a team can't put a defense on the field where a modicum of competence is possible. 3 coordinators, multiple scheme changes, horrible free agent contracts, all within 5 seasons.
How can anyone expect drafted players to excel if you're changing the scheme for which said players were drafted. Position groups continuing to suck year after year yet replacing that coach is an incomprehensible act.
With that said, after the firing of substandard coaches this offseason, I'm optimistic that success is possible this season.


Boy... Payton always has that scapegoat lined up doesn't he? Question, if the Saints fall flat in 2017... who will it be this time?

Don't misconstrue what I'm saying, Payton is too blame, without question. What I'm saying is that I have optimism that players may get better coaching hopefully leading to a better outcome. The end result may match the previous three to which everyone should be fired. I see exactly what you're saying though.

Edit:
Thinking of a whole new coaching staff and upper management is a bit scary. Seeing what other teams go through when there's a coaching carousel, reminds me too much of the pre Payton era.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kelsobob wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
kelsobob wrote:
I was also on the fire Payton and the FO train the last two years. It's hard for me to understand how a team can't put a defense on the field where a modicum of competence is possible. 3 coordinators, multiple scheme changes, horrible free agent contracts, all within 5 seasons.
How can anyone expect drafted players to excel if you're changing the scheme for which said players were drafted. Position groups continuing to suck year after year yet replacing that coach is an incomprehensible act.
With that said, after the firing of substandard coaches this offseason, I'm optimistic that success is possible this season.


Boy... Payton always has that scapegoat lined up doesn't he? Question, if the Saints fall flat in 2017... who will it be this time?

Don't misconstrue what I'm saying, Payton is too blame, without question. What I'm saying is that I have optimism that players may get better coaching hopefully leading to a better outcome. The end result may match the previous three to which everyone should be fired. I see exactly what you're saying though.

Edit:
Thinking of a whole new coaching staff and upper management is a bit scary. Seeing what other teams go through when there's a coaching carousel, reminds me too much of the pre Payton era.


While I agree... I also feel all good things must eventually come to an end and I'm a firm believer that even the most beloved people wear out their welcome eventually and complacency is typically the hardest thing to overcome. Sometimes change is good for all involved. I believe that the Saints had their hey day under the Payton era in Nee orleans. Yes it could and should have been better with Brees back half of his career but hanging on now and trying to stretch this thing out just may not be the best for all envolved.

What truly puzzles me about this recent draft is the fact that by both Payton and Loomis admission they would have selected Mahomes at 11 had Lattimore went at 10... the question gets caught up over how long Brees would have kept Mahomes on the bench but the real question should be, had Mahomes been the pick was it for Payton and his life beyond Brees with the Saints or would it have been a Loomis pick with an eye beyond Payton and Brees???

Either way... one thing is clear, while some would say the Saints are building a team Brees can win with... to me their building a roster that would make for a easy transition to a young quarterback.

But that's just me.
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kelsobob


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
kelsobob wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
kelsobob wrote:
I was also on the fire Payton and the FO train the last two years. It's hard for me to understand how a team can't put a defense on the field where a modicum of competence is possible. 3 coordinators, multiple scheme changes, horrible free agent contracts, all within 5 seasons.
How can anyone expect drafted players to excel if you're changing the scheme for which said players were drafted. Position groups continuing to suck year after year yet replacing that coach is an incomprehensible act.
With that said, after the firing of substandard coaches this offseason, I'm optimistic that success is possible this season.


Boy... Payton always has that scapegoat lined up doesn't he? Question, if the Saints fall flat in 2017... who will it be this time?

Don't misconstrue what I'm saying, Payton is too blame, without question. What I'm saying is that I have optimism that players may get better coaching hopefully leading to a better outcome. The end result may match the previous three to which everyone should be fired. I see exactly what you're saying though.

Edit:
Thinking of a whole new coaching staff and upper management is a bit scary. Seeing what other teams go through when there's a coaching carousel, reminds me too much of the pre Payton era.


While I agree... I also feel all good things must eventually come to an end and I'm a firm believer that even the most beloved people wear out their welcome eventually and complacency is typically the hardest thing to overcome. Sometimes change is good for all involved. I believe that the Saints had their hey day under the Payton era in Nee orleans. Yes it could and should have been better with Brees back half of his career but hanging on now and trying to stretch this thing out just may not be the best for all envolved.

What truly puzzles me about this recent draft is the fact that by both Payton and Loomis admission they would have selected Mahomes at 11 had Lattimore went at 10... the question gets caught up over how long Brees would have kept Mahomes on the bench but the real question should be, had Mahomes been the pick was it for Payton and his life beyond Brees with the Saints or would it have been a Loomis pick with an eye beyond Payton and Brees???

Either way... one thing is clear, while some would say the Saints are building a team Brees can win with... to me their building a roster that would make for a easy transition to a young quarterback.

But that's just me.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. They're building a team for the future minus Brees. Whether Payton is here or not, well I don't know. I assumed that Payton was gone after last season. The Colts may not have been willing to part with a 1st rd pick or whatever the comp was that Loomis wanted.
The willingness to draft Mahomes tells me they fully expect Payton to be there for the next few seasons. I didnt see him as the prospect to start a new coaching regime with. His propensity for turnovers could get a new coach fired.

Another point of intrigue, Loomis, does he stay as the GM or does he remove himself from that position and hire someone else.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Another point of intrigue, Loomis, does he stay as the GM or does he remove himself from that position and hire someone else.


This is an option I thought of as well but Loomis up to this point has shown an unwillingness to make such a move... however, I could see a situation where Eventually Loomis does in fact make a move like this and Terry Fontenot (Saints director of pro scouting) not Jeff Ireland becomes the new Saints GM but I only see this scenario playing out when Payton and the Saints finally agree to part ways mutually and Loomis allows Fontenot (a young in house home grown executive) to usher in the next era of Saints football with Loomis of course as an overseer.
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Spartica4Real


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loomis will be president eventually, like he is for the Pelicans. GM will probably be Ireland when this happens, but not anytime soon. He'll at least be GM for as long as Payton is HC.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WhoDat you shouldn't be hating them based on the 2015 draft but the 2014 draft. With Cooks gone I don't think we have a single player from that draft still on the roster.
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Mid Iowa


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't act like I know what goes on behind the doors in football operations, but I'd have to think that if you string together yet a 4th losing season in a row with an HOF QB, you probably don't make it to the end of the season as head coach, and shouldn't.

The team has been in rebuild mode for 4 years now, with marquee talent on offense, and a head coach that has his mitts on all decisions, that makes him the "most" to blame. We all know Benson won't dump Loomis, they're too tight, and Benson's too old, yet too smart to make Al Davis type decisions, so Loomis continues to call the shots for quite a while. Payton is the ultimate hot-seat rider right now.
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mid Iowa wrote:
I won't act like I know what goes on behind the doors in football operations, but I'd have to think that if you string together yet a 4th losing season in a row with an HOF QB, you probably don't make it to the end of the season as head coach, and shouldn't.

The team has been in rebuild mode for 4 years now, with marquee talent on offense, and a head coach that has his mitts on all decisions, that makes him the "most" to blame. We all know Benson won't dump Loomis, they're too tight, and Benson's too old, yet too smart to make Al Davis type decisions, so Loomis continues to call the shots for quite a while. Payton is the ultimate hot-seat rider right now.
I don't see them firing Payton under any circumstances during the season. They'd let him finish the season and they would "mutually part ways".
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raves wrote:
WhoDat you shouldn't be hating them based on the 2015 draft but the 2014 draft. With Cooks gone I don't think we have a single player from that draft still on the roster.


Not exactly "hatered" per say but more of "mistrust" and it's not just the 2015 draft but it goes all the way back to 2009 and the accumulative result since then. Sure there were some hits and I realize no front offices hits all the time but when you add up the misses, then the traded picks, then the hits who were eventually traded one can't but come to the harsh realization that this front office is poor in reguards to building a roster through the draft.

I haven't even mentioned the FA blunders since 09 either...

I harp on the 2015 draft because that was suppose to be he pivotal moment where things were to be turned around (Paytons words). Jeff Ireland was brought in and Jimmy Graham was traded in an effort to get better defensively (or so we thought). That frankly just haven't happened. The 2015 draft WAS this front offices 2nd chance, let's not forget the meidoricty that was since 2009 with these guys.

Let's remember all the crap that was built up by this front office leading up to the 2015 draft and what this franchise viewed that class as... now look at what it's become. The "vision" of this franchise is flawed and that starts with one guy, Sean Payton! This is why although I feel the 2017 draft class is impressive I won't give them (the front office and staff) all the credit because it screams of the failure of the 2015 draft class. The one that WAS their second chance. This means that the 2017 draft class is now their de facto 3rd chance.

All my post was about was simply questioning exactly how many chances does this regime need / deserve? How many years of ineptitude and redrafts must we witness before we began to see things for what they truly are? This front offices 1 saving grace is 38 years old and once he starts to show ware this staff will be exposed for what they truly are. Drew Brees stance reguarding his contract status confirms he feels somewhat how I do. Even people within the orginazation are beginning to grow tired of HEARING about how things will change, they want to start seeing change instead.

I personally don't see this team in the playoffs this upcoming season and if that's the case and this team goes 4 straight years with no playoff appearance with one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time at the height of his game then YES the head coach and general manager MUST be fired! Being a HC is more than just posting offensive satistics and being a GM should be more than being a wizard with the cap.

2017 is a make or break season in so many ways.
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