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Good draft should cost Loomis/Payton their jobs!
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

navysaintsfan wrote:
I'm willing to bet money Anzalone becomes a beast. I really like this kid.


He has the ability... I love the kids size and versatility and make up, it's just the injuries man. I hope it all stays clean for him!
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

navysaintsfan wrote:
I'm willing to bet money Anzalone becomes a beast. I really like this kid.
funny, he's the one I see as most likely to be the "bust" out of this class.

Obviously I hope you're right. Lol
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Mid Iowa


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
You talk crap about this and say stick around but each and everyone of my arguments have been about exactly that! This was a redraft of 2015 so it's safe to start assessing the 2015 draft which was by Paytons own account the one we absolutely could not get wrong.

So I start assessing this draft and pointing out how it coralates to those of 2015 but I'm just suppose to wait till 2019 for this one? No, no, no... not all fans are that easily swayed especially when you truly follow and pay attention to each and everyone of these classes, assesses them with no bisas and actually hold the people in charge accountable for the picks they make and the things they say and promise. I'm frustration comes more so from what is becomeing a clear assessment of what the 2015 draft was and should have been and how they used the 2017 draft to cover for it.

I'm on record saying I actually like this class... but that does not mean I should just put blinders on and ignore what I see and continue to act like Paytons "Vision" is the best thing for this club.

As far as being pissed for so called not getting players I like... far from it! I actually prefer the players we got compared to the guys we were rumored to be interested in. Takk may have been the one exception but I would have taken any top edge rusher to be honest. To be so quick to assume on that front, I was one who stressed to focus on the 31 clubs to PASS on Foster instead of the 1 team that traded up to get him. He was passed over for a reason and I get that.

My issues isn't with these players... it's with my belief that Loomis and Payton simply are lost when it comes to building this team as it appears we're stuck in neutral and they have yet proven capable of developing the talent they select and we keep hearing about these "clear visions" for players only to see those visions consistently change over and over... that's no vision at all." iMo

Well then I'm totally confused by your thread.

So you say you like the draft, yet you start the thread by saying this draft could/should cost Payton & Loomis their jobs? What am I missing?

I'm not throwing on the blinders either. You and I have discussed our discontent with Payton, and were about the only two calling for his dismissal the last 2 seasons. That said, this team was so screwed up, and there was such a lack of consistency with the defensive coordinator position that I think the "excuse" gets places solely on that.

We both know Payton isn't a defensive mind, so for us to even listen to the words "I have a vision of how they'll be used" makes us the fools for even thinking he has defensive vision. Offensive, yes! And we'll be a top 5 offense again. Defense....... hell.... no wonder he's drafting so many "starters" when they all suck, so the bar is set so low you could accidentally pass over it without knowing.

I guess I'm going to continue to see how it plays out now, with many of the defensive guys healthy again, the offseason additions, and now a pretty decent draft.

I'll stand with my argument that I think the last few years are finally going to come together. We've got the same defensive coordinator, finally. We've got a few more playmakers on both sides of the ball, so roll up your sleeves and watch some ball happen.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mid Iowa wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
You talk crap about this and say stick around but each and everyone of my arguments have been about exactly that! This was a redraft of 2015 so it's safe to start assessing the 2015 draft which was by Paytons own account the one we absolutely could not get wrong.

So I start assessing this draft and pointing out how it coralates to those of 2015 but I'm just suppose to wait till 2019 for this one? No, no, no... not all fans are that easily swayed especially when you truly follow and pay attention to each and everyone of these classes, assesses them with no bisas and actually hold the people in charge accountable for the picks they make and the things they say and promise. I'm frustration comes more so from what is becomeing a clear assessment of what the 2015 draft was and should have been and how they used the 2017 draft to cover for it.

I'm on record saying I actually like this class... but that does not mean I should just put blinders on and ignore what I see and continue to act like Paytons "Vision" is the best thing for this club.

As far as being pissed for so called not getting players I like... far from it! I actually prefer the players we got compared to the guys we were rumored to be interested in. Takk may have been the one exception but I would have taken any top edge rusher to be honest. To be so quick to assume on that front, I was one who stressed to focus on the 31 clubs to PASS on Foster instead of the 1 team that traded up to get him. He was passed over for a reason and I get that.

My issues isn't with these players... it's with my belief that Loomis and Payton simply are lost when it comes to building this team as it appears we're stuck in neutral and they have yet proven capable of developing the talent they select and we keep hearing about these "clear visions" for players only to see those visions consistently change over and over... that's no vision at all." iMo

Well then I'm totally confused by your thread.

So you say you like the draft, yet you start the thread by saying this draft could/should cost Payton & Loomis their jobs? What am I missing?

I'm not throwing on the blinders either. You and I have discussed our discontent with Payton, and were about the only two calling for his dismissal the last 2 seasons. That said, this team was so screwed up, and there was such a lack of consistency with the defensive coordinator position that I think the "excuse" gets places solely on that.

We both know Payton isn't a defensive mind, so for us to even listen to the words "I have a vision of how they'll be used" makes us the fools for even thinking he has defensive vision. Offensive, yes! And we'll be a top 5 offense again. Defense....... hell.... no wonder he's drafting so many "starters" when they all suck, so the bar is set so low you could accidentally pass over it without knowing.

I guess I'm going to continue to see how it plays out now, with many of the defensive guys healthy again, the offseason additions, and now a pretty decent draft.

I'll stand with my argument that I think the last few years are finally going to come together. We've got the same defensive coordinator, finally. We've got a few more playmakers on both sides of the ball, so roll up your sleeves and watch some ball happen.


It's really just a confusing time... as a Saints fan I'm optimistic that this front office is doing everything to build a solid roster but unfortunately I feel they are mostly conducting some good old fashion CYA. Now that does not mean that this class is subpar because it's not, it also does not mean that the picks weren't the right ones. However they (Saints front office) cannot have their cake and eat it too. It's not as simple as to simply continuing to disregard the facts that this front office has failed to address the one need that has been the biggest thorn in the side of this team for 3 years running as well as continuing to draft prospects to fill positions that they supposedly filled in drafts just 1-2 years prior.

Your right, it's very odd my stance but I feel I'm right. This front office drafts solid but inadequate prospects because the vision they have for them is flawed mostly due to the fact that this staff has little to zero patience to see that vision through and develop these kids.

On top of that this is still a organization that has seen 3 connective 7-9 seasons and have apparently not addressed their biggest need this offseason with a prospect worthy of impact. This season could very well be the last for many with in this organization and rightfully so. The problem with this staff is that they operate with the idea that they will always have the next year to get it right.... that has to change!
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look,

I want Lattimore to become the elite corner we all want. I want Ramczyk to be a 10 year fixture on our offensive line. I want Williams, Kamara and Anzalone to all become contributors to this team making the playoffs. I want Hendrickson to become the surprising mid round pass rushing steal but on the other hand I also want this front office to face the consequences for continued failure just like every other NFL front office if in fact that's what continues.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the issues with this thread is that your thoughts on Payton/Loomis and your thoughts on this draft class getting mixed in together which gives a lot of confusing thoughts.

Your revised view of the draft gives a better idea of how you see the draft, I think if you would look at this draft as though we had a new HC and GM you would say this draft was amazing, even with the Kamari pick.

Also looking back at the 2015 draft, the only real "misses" were Grayson as I think we drafted him to be the back-up QB knowing Chase Daniels was leaving and he just hasn't stepped up the way we would like. I think Anthony was a home run for the DC we had when we drafted Anthony and the scheme we wanted him to be ran in, he's only a miss once we've changed DCs what 2 or 3 times since 2015 already? Anthony is far from a bad player, he's just the right player for us, much like Snead was a bad fit for several teams but a great fit for us.

Also looking at Peat, in 2015 draft we needed a RT and an OG, we drafted Peat to be the RT only for Strief to come back and play much better and Peat was able to find a position at OG. We still need to find a long term answer at RT as Strief won't hold up for long and that is now with Ramczyk.

This should be interesting season. I see us going 10-6 looking at our roster and the schedule. Whether that gets us in the playoffs or not, that's another question.
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Mid Iowa


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dig it, Worm. I totally agree that it is frustrating, and it seems the team continues to miss the mark with their defensive picks (or lack thereof) and I will blame that (mostly) on the coaching carousel we have on defense in NOLA. Sad, huh?

Anyway, I'm also going to remain optimistic until it smacks me in the face yet again, at which point I'll call for Payton's job, yet again.

Cheers!
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Spartica4Real


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mid Iowa wrote:
I dig it, Worm. I totally agree that it is frustrating, and it seems the team continues to miss the mark with their defensive picks (or lack thereof) and I will blame that (mostly) on the coaching carousel we have on defense in NOLA. Sad, huh?

Anyway, I'm also going to remain optimistic until it smacks me in the face yet again, at which point I'll call for Payton's job, yet again.

Cheers!


Me every year:

Post FA/draft: Next year is the year our defense is good enough for us to make the playoffs again!

Regular season season begins, slow start: Damn another slow start? Season's over, we'll probably scrape our way to 7-9.

Middle of season: Wow we're on a roll and up to .500. Defense is playing better, keep it up and they can make the playoffs.

End of season collapse: Welp 7-9 again just like I thought, fire Payton and Loomis.

Start of offseason: Well we're keeping them, I think this is the last chance for them, they need to make the playoffs.

REPEAT.
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NS922


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:

Your right, it's very odd my stance but I feel I'm right. This front office drafts solid but inadequate prospects because the vision they have for them is flawed mostly due to the fact that this staff has little to zero patience to see that vision through and develop these kids.


That's what it comes down to, imo. I don't think the drafts themselves have been the issue. I think we've been drafting good players. The coaches haven't gotten the most out of them. If the coaches can get their act together they can salvage the careers of all these guys you think are busts right now. Because they're obviously talented. They obviously have potential. There are going to be pure busts in every draft so I won't look at the guys we kicked to the curb already and put too much blame on the staff, if they can make it work from here on out. In fact the draft hasn't been the issue, it's been the garbage FAs. THAT is where I won't defend the front office. But I won't knock them too hard on these draft picks. Yes, the reason they're drafting these guys is because they couldn't get it right the first few times, but at least they know what they have to fix.
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Mid Iowa


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartica4Real wrote:

Me every year:

Post FA/draft: Next year is the year our defense is good enough for us to make the playoffs again!

Regular season season begins, slow start: Damn another slow start? Season's over, we'll probably scrape our way to 7-9.

Middle of season: Wow we're on a roll and up to .500. Defense is playing better, keep it up and they can make the playoffs.

End of season collapse: Welp 7-9 again just like I thought, fire Payton and Loomis.

Start of offseason: Well we're keeping them, I think this is the last chance for them, they need to make the playoffs.

REPEAT.
Yeah, just copy and paste. What the hell, why not, they're making millions for mediocre performance. Loomis even got rewarded with another GM position. Hmmm......... Maybe we are suckers.
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WhoDatNation


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears that the Jets are still trying to move Sheldon Richardson. I think we should make a move on him. Even though he only had 1.5 sacks last year, he is young and a change of scenery could boost his performance. If we were to finalize our defensive off-season by adding/resigning AJ Klein, Sterling Moore, Nick Fairly, Marshon Lattimore, Alex Anzalone, Marcus Williams, Trey Hendrickson, and Sheldon Richardson, I'd say we have improved the D. Thoughts on making a Richardson move?
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wow_junky


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2015 draft wouldn't look so bad if Allen wasn't trying his best to ruin Stephone Anthony and Kikaha

Overall this draft seems ok, the top 5 picks have a very high chance of starting this season. Not normally a good thing because it means our depth is awful, but at least we have improved where we needed to
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow_junky wrote:
2015 draft wouldn't look so bad if Allen wasn't trying his best to ruin Stephone Anthony and Kikaha

Overall this draft seems ok, the top 5 picks have a very high chance of starting this season. Not normally a good thing because it means our depth is awful, but at least we have improved where we needed to


This is the core of what I'm talking about when I say the ineptitude of this franchise is the flawed "vision" of Sean Payton particularly when it comes to the defensive side of the ball...

In 2015 they draft Anthony and Kikaha with a so called vision... all be it one under then D.C. Rob Ryan, so there's the scapegoat but yet Payton had the foresight to bring Dennis Allen in as a special senior defensive assistant prior to all of this? Do any of us honestly believe that Dennis Allen wasn't going to become the D.C. Eventually the moment he was hired? Ryan was in such shaky ground and even he eluded to after his firing that it wasn't done sooner to protect Paytons image within the fan base after running through D.C. On a consistent basis.

I don't buy it one bit... I won't use Ryan as the scapegoat for the failures of draft picks in 2015 and let Payton off the hook. Even Peat whom he proclaimed the next right tackle, "we see him as a tackle not a guard" remember those words? Marcus Peters was on the board... by passing on one of the games top corners made Lattimore such a need in the first place. Anyone who believes that Peat is a top NFL lineman surly isn't watching him. Payton said at this years anual owners meeting that he wanted this team to come away from this draft with a young offensive lineman. Off statement when you consider it was viewed by many as a weak class for the position but yet Payton had one of these guys ranked top 15 on their board???

Why? Was Ramczyk grade inflated due to Paytons need for another offensive lineman? Why such urgency to once again fill the reserve RT position and most of all is this conformation that he has already given up on his "vision" for Peat at RT? Clearly that's the case because Payton quickly labeled Ramczyk a RT.

The bottom line is the biggest thing wrong with this team is Sean Payton and his flawed vision and his inability to allow players to grow and develop. You watch, 1-2 losses early in 2017 and he will abandon everything and start to screw with these guys development just like he did with the 2015 draft class.

My problem is that I have absolutely lost all confidence in Payton in developing players... not picking them and he's done nothing but prove me right since 2015.

I honestly don't know what it's going to take for majority of Saints fans to see what's really going on here...

Maybe in 2018 when we release Peat and move Ramczyk to guard and draft another RT in round 1 will fans finally see what's going on... and don't say it isn't possible because we all know it is under Payton.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess at the end of the day this draft is really based off of 1 thing... did the Saints do enough to be better than 7-9 and my answer to that is no.

It's not that I don't think the Saints didn't improve because I feel they did but so did every other team in our division. Atlanta had a great draft and are built both offensively and defensively to win this division once again. The Panthers will be rock solid on defense and have added offensive playmakers that will allow Cam newton to be more creative on offense. The Bucs continue to build a solid group of players with the ability to challenge.

The Saints got older on offense and less dynamic. They got deeper at positions that want nessessarly seen as needs. They filled their 2nd biggest need with a great player but once again will enter the season with a MAJOR question mark at edge rusher.

I just don't see it guys... this is a collection of good players but it's still a 8-8 team at best. After 3 conncectutive 7-9 seasons with a slew of draft picks in a deep draft and the most money under the cap in years, Loomis and Payton have basically given us the same team we had in 2016 just with replacement names.

In any other city with any other owner I'd already be convinced that we will be drafting a new young quarterback for our new HC in 2018 but with this regime and this owner there still playing with house money and they know it.
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So they were conservative with their cap space and signed some good value deals, then in the draft they didn't reach on players of need but drafted BPA or targeted high value players that were dropping.

They finally did what we wanted and now we're ready to run them out of town months before our first preseason game?
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