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2nd Round (61): Josh Jones [S; NC State]
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NormSizedMidget


Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 17890
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PossibleCabbage wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Are we trying to pretend Su'a Cravens is good in here?


Live and die with an undersized ILB. These guys are all essentially the same player at different stages in their development.

If you want that guy, fine, but you're playing a specific defense at that point.


I mean, Big Nickel is a thing and has been for a while, so why are we out here wanting to pretend safeties are linebackers instead of just "playing three safeties".


Because "plodding" LBers are a thing and they hate it. So they pretend one LB is now a really fast guy and they feel good.

I'm not even being sarcastic here...
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Cakeshoppe


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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

back in 2005, I was playing ILB at 127 lbs on my JV team so I'd like to think I played a role in popularizing that undersized ILB spot
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Kenrik


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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PossibleCabbage wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Are we trying to pretend Su'a Cravens is good in here?


Live and die with an undersized ILB. These guys are all essentially the same player at different stages in their development.

If you want that guy, fine, but you're playing a specific defense at that point.


I mean, Big Nickel is a thing and has been for a while, so why are we out here wanting to pretend safeties are linebackers instead of just "playing three safeties".


Thank you! All this hybrid talk has gotten annoying. Good safeties can play over the top and in the box. That makes them a complete Safety not a hybrid. We've started playing with 3 safeties the last few years and with Jones I think we'll see more of this. But please can we stop with this ILB bullshart
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 13508
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenrik wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Are we trying to pretend Su'a Cravens is good in here?


Live and die with an undersized ILB. These guys are all essentially the same player at different stages in their development.

If you want that guy, fine, but you're playing a specific defense at that point.


I mean, Big Nickel is a thing and has been for a while, so why are we out here wanting to pretend safeties are linebackers instead of just "playing three safeties".


Thank you! All this hybrid talk has gotten annoying. Good safeties can play over the top and in the box. That makes them a complete Safety not a hybrid. We've started playing with 3 safeties the last few years and with Jones I think we'll see more of this. But please can we stop with this ILB bullshart


But then we can't jerk it over our cutting edge, state of the art, advanced football schematic prowess.
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spilltray


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For years TE has been moving to a position that is inbetween the WR and traditional TE role and body type. It's been a game breaker at times because defensive personnel hadn't really adjusted like that. Finding ways to use these guys that are a bit big to play S and a bit small for LB is the counter to what's happened with TE/WRs blurring the lines.
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Shanedorf


Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Posts: 1509
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a couple of links and articles on the topic, one from 2012 and a new one from this year.
When the Packers played a heavy nickel in the past, that meant 3 safeties 2 CBs and 2 ILBs - Capers said it was to handle the run better than having 3 CBs on the field.
Its swapping in a Safety for a CB

In the current scenario, the nickel can still have either 2 ( normal) or 3 (heavy) safeties as above, but one of the ILB spots is now played by a Safety instead of an ILB. This is swapping a Safety for an ILB
I think that's a different alignment than the heavy nickel.

http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/172179231.html

"Defensive coordinator Dom Capers decided to employ at times a seven-defensive back scheme called "dollar" against the New Orleans Saints so that he could he match up a defensive back on RB Darren Sproles instead of a linebacker."

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2016/07/29/morgan-burnetts-role-expands-nfl-evolves/87714846/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=

"In training camp’s opening week, Burnett took reps as a nickel linebacker. He lined up beside rookie linebacker Blake Martinez, filling Jake Ryan’s usual spot. There were six defensive backs on the field, two deep safeties behind Burnett, a small but fast personnel group."

One article from JSO and one article from Packersnews, the two outlets with beat writers covering the team.
If they are both mistaken, we should probably let them know.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 13508
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shanedorf wrote:
Here's a couple of links and articles on the topic, one from 2012 and a new one from this year.
When the Packers played a heavy nickel in the past, that meant 3 safeties 2 CBs and 2 ILBs - Capers said it was to handle the run better than having 3 CBs on the field.
Its swapping in a Safety for a CB

In the current scenario, the nickel can still have either 2 ( normal) or 3 (heavy) safeties as above, but one of the ILB spots is now played by a Safety instead of an ILB. This is swapping a Safety for an ILB
I think that's a different alignment than the heavy nickel.

http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/172179231.html

"Defensive coordinator Dom Capers decided to employ at times a seven-defensive back scheme called "dollar" against the New Orleans Saints so that he could he match up a defensive back on RB Darren Sproles instead of a linebacker."

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2016/07/29/morgan-burnetts-role-expands-nfl-evolves/87714846/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=

"In training camp’s opening week, Burnett took reps as a nickel linebacker. He lined up beside rookie linebacker Blake Martinez, filling Jake Ryan’s usual spot. There were six defensive backs on the field, two deep safeties behind Burnett, a small but fast personnel group."

One article from JSO and one article from Packersnews, the two outlets with beat writers covering the team.
If they are both mistaken, we should probably let them know.


If a safety is playing a "nickel linebacker role", it's not a nickel defense. It's a dime defense. Our dime defense when deployed against 11 personnel has featured a safety playing in the box since Capers became our DC and probably before that.

This entire discussion stems back to beat writers being seven to ten years behind the times and only just now accepting that the nickel defense is the most important defensive grouping. Teams are now practicing their dime P&P looks with the same frequency that they are their traditional base looks.

If you want to say that some teams are transitioning the responsibilities of their nickel defense and playing a smaller run and chase ILB, that's fine. You would probably be right in that assessment to some extent. Most teams have half a dozen nickel packages. If you feel the Packers should be running some of that type of nickel package, that's fine, some teams have had success with it. You need to draft for it.

But stop labeling things what they are not.

When you label these things, players are not position fluid. They get a position, and that label doesn't change. The personnel grouping label changes. If you play a standard 4-2-5 nickel alignment, leave everyone in the exact same place and give them the exact same responsibility, swapping out Morgan Burnett for Jake Ryan doesn't make Burnett a linebacker, it makes the defense a 4-1-6 dime alignment with a safety in the box.
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BroncoinGermany wrote:
From the day he was born and subsequently starting to grow into his short neck, round face, scruffy beard and pale face, Bulaga was destined to be a Packers O-Linemen for life.


Last edited by AlexGreen#20 on Wed May 10, 2017 1:16 am; edited 2 times in total
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HTTRG3Dynasty


Joined: 03 Apr 2012
Posts: 10471
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Are we trying to pretend Su'a Cravens is good in here?


Question

Did you even watch him last year?

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-cravens-emerging-as-an-elite-modern-hybrid/

- Although he saw only limited snaps against the ground game, Su’a Cravens led the Redskins’ linebacker corps in run-stop percentage.

- When targeted, he allowed a quarterback rating of only 73.1, ranking him fourth among all inside linebackers in the NFL.

- His versatility allows him to be utilized in the front-seven, as a strong safety in base, and in the slot in the nickel.



Was just browsing your forum to see how you liked the Jones pick and saw this. Had to speak on it. Laughing


Last edited by HTTRG3Dynasty on Wed May 10, 2017 1:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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NormSizedMidget


Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 17890
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Are we trying to pretend Su'a Cravens is good in here?


Question

Did you even watch him last year?


- Although he saw only limited snaps against the ground game, Su’a Cravens led the Redskins’ linebacker corps in run-stop percentage.

- When targeted, he allowed a quarterback rating of only 73.1, ranking him fourth among all inside linebackers in the NFL.

- His versatility allows him to be utilized in the front-seven, as a strong safety in base, and in the slot in the nickel.



Was just browsing your forum to see how you liked the Jones pick and saw this. Had to speak on it. Laughing


Omg lol.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 13508
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Are we trying to pretend Su'a Cravens is good in here?


Question

Did you even watch him last year?


- Although he saw only limited snaps against the ground game, Su’a Cravens led the Redskins’ linebacker corps in run-stop percentage.

- When targeted, he allowed a quarterback rating of only 73.1, ranking him fourth among all inside linebackers in the NFL.

- His versatility allows him to be utilized in the front-seven, as a strong safety in base, and in the slot in the nickel.



Was just browsing your forum to see how you liked the Jones pick and saw this. Had to speak on it. Laughing


He played less than 300 snaps. Nobody watched enough of him last year to form a solid opinion.

He only played in 11 games and I don't think he played above 50% of the team's defensive snaps in any of the games he played in (I spot checked 5 and he bounces between 30 and 48 from what I observed.)

He's not even close to playing the every down role you described, and people have every right to be skeptical when his name is listed on a group of supposed difference makers.
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BroncoinGermany wrote:
From the day he was born and subsequently starting to grow into his short neck, round face, scruffy beard and pale face, Bulaga was destined to be a Packers O-Linemen for life.
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HorizontoZenith


Joined: 03 Mar 2016
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I the only one who looked at that list and immediately saw that Blake Martinez was the third best rookie inside linebacker in the league last year in QB rating allowed and that he was behind Deion Jones by only 2.3 points?

Or is everybody else still focused on that one guy being really wrong on Cravens?
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HTTRG3Dynasty


Joined: 03 Apr 2012
Posts: 10471
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Are we trying to pretend Su'a Cravens is good in here?


Question

Did you even watch him last year?


- Although he saw only limited snaps against the ground game, Su’a Cravens led the Redskins’ linebacker corps in run-stop percentage.

- When targeted, he allowed a quarterback rating of only 73.1, ranking him fourth among all inside linebackers in the NFL.

- His versatility allows him to be utilized in the front-seven, as a strong safety in base, and in the slot in the nickel.



Was just browsing your forum to see how you liked the Jones pick and saw this. Had to speak on it. Laughing


He played less than 300 snaps. Nobody watched enough of him last year to form a solid opinion.

He only played in 11 games and I don't think he played above 50% of the team's defensive snaps in any of the games he played in (I spot checked 5 and he bounces between 30 and 48 from what I observed.)

He's not even close to playing the every down role you described,
and people have every right to be skeptical when his name is listed on a group of supposed difference makers.


What every down role I described? He played the dimebacker role for us last year. I never said any differently.

The dude made a claim that Cravens wasn't even "good". That is a false claim.
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AlexGreen#20


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Posts: 13508
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Are we trying to pretend Su'a Cravens is good in here?


Question

Did you even watch him last year?


- Although he saw only limited snaps against the ground game, Su’a Cravens led the Redskins’ linebacker corps in run-stop percentage.

- When targeted, he allowed a quarterback rating of only 73.1, ranking him fourth among all inside linebackers in the NFL.

- His versatility allows him to be utilized in the front-seven, as a strong safety in base, and in the slot in the nickel.



Was just browsing your forum to see how you liked the Jones pick and saw this. Had to speak on it. Laughing


He played less than 300 snaps. Nobody watched enough of him last year to form a solid opinion.

He only played in 11 games and I don't think he played above 50% of the team's defensive snaps in any of the games he played in (I spot checked 5 and he bounces between 30 and 48 from what I observed.)

He's not even close to playing the every down role you described,
and people have every right to be skeptical when his name is listed on a group of supposed difference makers.


What every down role I described? He played the dimebacker role for us last year. I never said any differently.

The dude made a claim that Cravens wasn't even "good". That is a false claim.


HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
What every down role I described? He played the dimebacker role for us last year. I never said any differently.


HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
- His versatility allows him to be utilized in the front-seven, as a strong safety in base, and in the slot in the nickel.


How are you confused about this? It's not like they were many posts apart, those are back to back posts?

A dime linebacker role is entirely different than an every down player, which is what the context of the discussion is about. Listing Cravens as a good every down player is obviously nonsense considering his reps in that role last year.

An undersized linebacker should excel as a dime linebacker, that's what his physical profile and skillset are optimal for. The concern with undersized ILBs is how they hold up in the run game. The Redskins staff didn't hold that part of his skillset in high regard considering the role he played and the mediocrity that was in front of him.
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BroncoinGermany wrote:
From the day he was born and subsequently starting to grow into his short neck, round face, scruffy beard and pale face, Bulaga was destined to be a Packers O-Linemen for life.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


Joined: 03 Apr 2012
Posts: 10471
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Are we trying to pretend Su'a Cravens is good in here?


Question

Did you even watch him last year?


- Although he saw only limited snaps against the ground game, Su’a Cravens led the Redskins’ linebacker corps in run-stop percentage.

- When targeted, he allowed a quarterback rating of only 73.1, ranking him fourth among all inside linebackers in the NFL.

- His versatility allows him to be utilized in the front-seven, as a strong safety in base, and in the slot in the nickel.



Was just browsing your forum to see how you liked the Jones pick and saw this. Had to speak on it. Laughing


He played less than 300 snaps. Nobody watched enough of him last year to form a solid opinion.

He only played in 11 games and I don't think he played above 50% of the team's defensive snaps in any of the games he played in (I spot checked 5 and he bounces between 30 and 48 from what I observed.)

He's not even close to playing the every down role you described,
and people have every right to be skeptical when his name is listed on a group of supposed difference makers.


What every down role I described? He played the dimebacker role for us last year. I never said any differently.

The dude made a claim that Cravens wasn't even "good". That is a false claim.


HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
What every down role I described? He played the dimebacker role for us last year. I never said any differently.


HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
- His versatility allows him to be utilized in the front-seven, as a strong safety in base, and in the slot in the nickel.


How are you confused about this? It's not like they were many posts apart, those are back to back posts?

A dime linebacker role is entirely different than an every down player, which is what the context of the discussion is about. Listing Cravens as a good every down player is obviously nonsense considering his reps in that role last year.

An undersized linebacker should excel as a dime linebacker, that's what his physical profile and skillset are optimal for. The concern with undersized ILBs is how they hold up in the run game. The Redskins staff didn't hold that part of his skillset in high regard considering the role he played and the mediocrity that was in front of him.


Those bullet points I listed were posted directly from the PFF article I linked. I didn't write them.

He was the best run defender out of all our linebackers, regardless of situation (he subbed in for Will Compton at ILB on early downs at times throughout the year). It was apparent when watching film. He isn't going to stack and shed to the degree of a Luke Keuchly, but the dude just has a nose for the football (e.g. the 1st video in the following short article: http://draftwire.usatoday.com/2016/11/17/redskins-dc-joe-barry-on-success-of-rookie-sua-cravens-he-craves-knowledge/). He's being moved to SS this offseason, but that's not because of a lack of skill in defending the run. The current staff just believes he can add a bigger impact to the team at SS.

Our DC last year was an idiot, so basing Cravens' skillset on how much playing time he received is not as good of an argument as you think it is. His handling of Cravens last year is actually one of the reasons he's gone.

Bottom line: I don't know how anyone could come away from watching Cravens last year and decide that he is not a good player.
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Shanedorf


Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Posts: 1509
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's more on Josh Jones, from packers.com

http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/article-daily-news-story/article-1/Josh-Jones-brings-engaging-personality-to-Green-Bay/f136db09-a756-4b68-af19-3aa53ed3f685

In addition to working at safety, Jones (6-1, 220) did some position drills with the inside linebackers, and lined up there for some 11-on-11 snaps.

Whether the sub-package is referred to as a “small nickel” or “big dime,” Head Coach Mike McCarthy said earlier this offseason how much he liked what the defense was able to do with safety Morgan Burnett in that role last season, and he wants to expand on it. In part, that means having more than one player capable of taking on the task.

“In college, I played some linebacker. I played everywhere,” Jones said. “I kind of knew that whatever team drafted me would have some packages for me.”
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