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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
Posts: 3184
Location: On the wall defending Reggie from all blasphemous heretics!
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drfrey13 wrote:
Synyster wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
I didn't dislike the Ward pick because of the player as much on guys we passed him for. In particular, I would have loved A'Shawn Robinson at that pick. He's an absolute bull of a man and can completely dominate in the run game and push the pocket.


I thought he was a raw tweener type heading into the NFL with an uphill battle ahead of him. A round later I'd be okay with it though.


This is exactly my point. I was happy drafting Ward but not in the second round. I am not calling him a bust either. There were players who outplayed him year one so they look like they were better choices to date. I do understand that some players take longer then others. Nobody expected Ward to be a world beater year one or even believed that he had a chance to beat out the players ahead of him without injuries of course. My 2nd round pick should be able to compete for a starting job or a rotational role year one. Not that they will perform but you should go into camp believing they have a shot.


That is where many need to readjust there expectations when looking at drafted players than. Reggie clearly thought of Ward as a project and took him in the 2nd anyway. He wasn't hung up on the expectations just because of the round the guy was taken. As long as you cling to those rigid draft tropes you're gonna be disappointed more times than not.
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Synyster


Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Posts: 517
Location: Conley Island
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:
drfrey13 wrote:
Synyster wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
I didn't dislike the Ward pick because of the player as much on guys we passed him for. In particular, I would have loved A'Shawn Robinson at that pick. He's an absolute bull of a man and can completely dominate in the run game and push the pocket.


I thought he was a raw tweener type heading into the NFL with an uphill battle ahead of him. A round later I'd be okay with it though.


This is exactly my point. I was happy drafting Ward but not in the second round. I am not calling him a bust either. There were players who outplayed him year one so they look like they were better choices to date. I do understand that some players take longer then others. Nobody expected Ward to be a world beater year one or even believed that he had a chance to beat out the players ahead of him without injuries of course. My 2nd round pick should be able to compete for a starting job or a rotational role year one. Not that they will perform but you should go into camp believing they have a shot.


That is where many need to readjust there expectations when looking at drafted players than. Reggie clearly thought of Ward as a project and took him in the 2nd anyway. He wasn't hung up on the expectations just because of the round the guy was taken. As long as you cling to those rigid draft tropes you're gonna be disappointed more times than not.

So what's your call then?
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
Posts: 3184
Location: On the wall defending Reggie from all blasphemous heretics!
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Synyster wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:
drfrey13 wrote:
Synyster wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
I didn't dislike the Ward pick because of the player as much on guys we passed him for. In particular, I would have loved A'Shawn Robinson at that pick. He's an absolute bull of a man and can completely dominate in the run game and push the pocket.


I thought he was a raw tweener type heading into the NFL with an uphill battle ahead of him. A round later I'd be okay with it though.


This is exactly my point. I was happy drafting Ward but not in the second round. I am not calling him a bust either. There were players who outplayed him year one so they look like they were better choices to date. I do understand that some players take longer then others. Nobody expected Ward to be a world beater year one or even believed that he had a chance to beat out the players ahead of him without injuries of course. My 2nd round pick should be able to compete for a starting job or a rotational role year one. Not that they will perform but you should go into camp believing they have a shot.


That is where many need to readjust there expectations when looking at drafted players than. Reggie clearly thought of Ward as a project and took him in the 2nd anyway. He wasn't hung up on the expectations just because of the round the guy was taken. As long as you cling to those rigid draft tropes you're gonna be disappointed more times than not.


So what's your call then?


My call for what?
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Synyster


Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Posts: 517
Location: Conley Island
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:
Synyster wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:
drfrey13 wrote:
Synyster wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
I didn't dislike the Ward pick because of the player as much on guys we passed him for. In particular, I would have loved A'Shawn Robinson at that pick. He's an absolute bull of a man and can completely dominate in the run game and push the pocket.


I thought he was a raw tweener type heading into the NFL with an uphill battle ahead of him. A round later I'd be okay with it though.


This is exactly my point. I was happy drafting Ward but not in the second round. I am not calling him a bust either. There were players who outplayed him year one so they look like they were better choices to date. I do understand that some players take longer then others. Nobody expected Ward to be a world beater year one or even believed that he had a chance to beat out the players ahead of him without injuries of course. My 2nd round pick should be able to compete for a starting job or a rotational role year one. Not that they will perform but you should go into camp believing they have a shot.


That is where many need to readjust there expectations when looking at drafted players than. Reggie clearly thought of Ward as a project and took him in the 2nd anyway. He wasn't hung up on the expectations just because of the round the guy was taken. As long as you cling to those rigid draft tropes you're gonna be disappointed more times than not.


So what's your call then?


My call for what?


Take a wild guess.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
Posts: 3184
Location: On the wall defending Reggie from all blasphemous heretics!
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Synyster wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:
Synyster wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:
drfrey13 wrote:
Synyster wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
I didn't dislike the Ward pick because of the player as much on guys we passed him for. In particular, I would have loved A'Shawn Robinson at that pick. He's an absolute bull of a man and can completely dominate in the run game and push the pocket.


I thought he was a raw tweener type heading into the NFL with an uphill battle ahead of him. A round later I'd be okay with it though.


This is exactly my point. I was happy drafting Ward but not in the second round. I am not calling him a bust either. There were players who outplayed him year one so they look like they were better choices to date. I do understand that some players take longer then others. Nobody expected Ward to be a world beater year one or even believed that he had a chance to beat out the players ahead of him without injuries of course. My 2nd round pick should be able to compete for a starting job or a rotational role year one. Not that they will perform but you should go into camp believing they have a shot.


That is where many need to readjust there expectations when looking at drafted players than. Reggie clearly thought of Ward as a project and took him in the 2nd anyway. He wasn't hung up on the expectations just because of the round the guy was taken. As long as you cling to those rigid draft tropes you're gonna be disappointed more times than not.


So what's your call then?


My call for what?


Take a wild guess.


I don't know? We were talking about Ward. His pre and post draft expectations. We got into Reggie's draft expectations and you could also be refering to overall draft expectations?

If you want a direct answer, ask a real question like an adult, don't flip a sarcastic remark.
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drfrey13


Joined: 14 Oct 2010
Posts: 1452
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:
drfrey13 wrote:
Synyster wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
I didn't dislike the Ward pick because of the player as much on guys we passed him for. In particular, I would have loved A'Shawn Robinson at that pick. He's an absolute bull of a man and can completely dominate in the run game and push the pocket.


I thought he was a raw tweener type heading into the NFL with an uphill battle ahead of him. A round later I'd be okay with it though.


This is exactly my point. I was happy drafting Ward but not in the second round. I am not calling him a bust either. There were players who outplayed him year one so they look like they were better choices to date. I do understand that some players take longer then others. Nobody expected Ward to be a world beater year one or even believed that he had a chance to beat out the players ahead of him without injuries of course. My 2nd round pick should be able to compete for a starting job or a rotational role year one. Not that they will perform but you should go into camp believing they have a shot.


That is where many need to readjust there expectations when looking at drafted players than. Reggie clearly thought of Ward as a project and took him in the 2nd anyway. He wasn't hung up on the expectations just because of the round the guy was taken. As long as you cling to those rigid draft tropes you're gonna be disappointed more times than not.


We are discussing our displeasure with him being selected so high. Some believe RM made a mistake or reached and are discussing it. That is the fun of the board. We give our thoughts and ideas to discuss and debate. Not change our expectations or opinions to fit what RM likes. I am sure like many others on this board you do not have many people that you can discuss football this in depth with so you come to the board. I trust RM and the overall direction of the team but that does mean he is always right. When I feel he made a mistake I am going to state it but he deserves most of the credit for the overall success of the team.
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Darbsk


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 1998
Location: Wales, UK
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:
drfrey13 wrote:
Synyster wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
I didn't dislike the Ward pick because of the player as much on guys we passed him for. In particular, I would have loved A'Shawn Robinson at that pick. He's an absolute bull of a man and can completely dominate in the run game and push the pocket.


I thought he was a raw tweener type heading into the NFL with an uphill battle ahead of him. A round later I'd be okay with it though.


This is exactly my point. I was happy drafting Ward but not in the second round. I am not calling him a bust either. There were players who outplayed him year one so they look like they were better choices to date. I do understand that some players take longer then others. Nobody expected Ward to be a world beater year one or even believed that he had a chance to beat out the players ahead of him without injuries of course. My 2nd round pick should be able to compete for a starting job or a rotational role year one. Not that they will perform but you should go into camp believing they have a shot.


That is where many need to readjust there expectations when looking at drafted players than. Reggie clearly thought of Ward as a project and took him in the 2nd anyway. He wasn't hung up on the expectations just because of the round the guy was taken. As long as you cling to those rigid draft tropes you're gonna be disappointed more times than not.



The issue I feel is not that we drafted a project player in Ward, and not entirely that we drafted him higher than his level of college play would suggest he should go, I think the issue is that having watched him play a large part of the season, if you're advocating for him what exactly can you point to as indications that he'll turn the corner and become not just a solid player but a player worthy of being picked high in the second round.

I get that his H/W/S are interesting stats, but for me his athleticism was not exceptional, merely good. When he played I saw a player who played way too high, didn't know how to use his hands effectively and didn't have any polished pass rush moves to speak of, didn't understand leverage and wasn't particularly strong or explosive. Now, I agree that we should give him time and we should be patient but I am a little concerned with just how lacking he was at the basics of DL play. To me, Latham came in and was instantly better in terms of functional strength, leverage, holding the point of attack and showed flashes of agility and explosiveness right off the bat.

I'm not dismissing Ward's potential to improve (and he should improve) but I am definitely concerned with just how much he has to work on and the probability he will improve enough in so many areas to be considered a good pick at the high cost we drafted him. I sincerely hope he proves a lot of us wrong, but from the evidence shown he has a very long way to go unfortunately. If I recall correctly, he wasn't even suited up for the last couple games so it's debatable that he improved much throughout the season as some claim they saw.
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SBXISBXVSBXVIII


Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 3813
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raidr4life wrote:
jlieberum1985 wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
DirtyHarry wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
DirtyHarry wrote:
jlieberum1985 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Gotta love captain hindsight Rolling Eyes also, I'd rather have Joseph and Cooper, thanks though.


lol, don't take this wrong. i love cooper and joseph picks

i just wish the players would actually contribute to the field, i'm looking at ward

and

calhoun he's more of a pass rusher DE/OLB, not coverage where i saw him dropping back and drop a interception against the texans, it was a easy pick 6 i've ever seen

let face it, those players contribute nothing on the field last year

IF they contribute nothing this year then yes, both of them is a complete bust

You wish the players would actually contribute ? that's a crazy thought. Ward can't be any worse than last year he doesn't have to do much to be better. Lowest of low bars to clear.


you guys act like it doesn't take time to develop. We should just draft all day 1 starters next time. its that easy.

I'm just pointing out he wasn't good last year I understand he wasn't supposed to get that many snaps. Some here do seem to expect pro bowlers right out the gate.


Ward was bad, real bad. And yes, he was thrown in the fire. We have to be patient though. Not everyone is going to light it up year 1 or even 2. BUt its called draft and develop for a reason. Nnamdi, was terrible his first 2-3 years, terrible. Dude turned it around and was a perennial All Pro player. We have to give these guys time, also, its up to the staff to develop.


the point is it was a 2nd round pick, we expect 2nd rounder a good starter and contribute to the team off the start.

edwards, carr, melifonwu is a good pick for 2nd round, they all play college for 4 years

watson, ward is not a good pick since both a project and very little experience playing football in college
You calling Obi a good pick now, but a soon as he don't live up to expectations by mid season you be calling him a bust with a long list of who you think we should have taken.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
Posts: 3184
Location: On the wall defending Reggie from all blasphemous heretics!
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drfrey13 wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:
drfrey13 wrote:
Synyster wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
I didn't dislike the Ward pick because of the player as much on guys we passed him for. In particular, I would have loved A'Shawn Robinson at that pick. He's an absolute bull of a man and can completely dominate in the run game and push the pocket.


I thought he was a raw tweener type heading into the NFL with an uphill battle ahead of him. A round later I'd be okay with it though.


This is exactly my point. I was happy drafting Ward but not in the second round. I am not calling him a bust either. There were players who outplayed him year one so they look like they were better choices to date. I do understand that some players take longer then others. Nobody expected Ward to be a world beater year one or even believed that he had a chance to beat out the players ahead of him without injuries of course. My 2nd round pick should be able to compete for a starting job or a rotational role year one. Not that they will perform but you should go into camp believing they have a shot.


That is where many need to readjust there expectations when looking at drafted players than. Reggie clearly thought of Ward as a project and took him in the 2nd anyway. He wasn't hung up on the expectations just because of the round the guy was taken. As long as you cling to those rigid draft tropes you're gonna be disappointed more times than not.


We are discussing our displeasure with him being selected so high. Some believe RM made a mistake or reached and are discussing it. That is the fun of the board. We give our thoughts and ideas to discuss and debate. Not change our expectations or opinions to fit what RM likes. I am sure like many others on this board you do not have many people that you can discuss football this in depth with so you come to the board. I trust RM and the overall direction of the team but that does mean he is always right. When I feel he made a mistake I am going to state it but he deserves most of the credit for the overall success of the team.


I know what the discussion was about. I took it in the direction that the expectation for the high pick could possibly be adjusted from the rigid stance that a 2nd rd pick needs to be a starter day 1 and immediately show and produce to be worth the range. That's fine that you feel he made a mistake. I'm presenting a different way to view the situation. Like you said, it's all discussion.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
Posts: 3184
Location: On the wall defending Reggie from all blasphemous heretics!
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:
drfrey13 wrote:
Synyster wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
I didn't dislike the Ward pick because of the player as much on guys we passed him for. In particular, I would have loved A'Shawn Robinson at that pick. He's an absolute bull of a man and can completely dominate in the run game and push the pocket.


I thought he was a raw tweener type heading into the NFL with an uphill battle ahead of him. A round later I'd be okay with it though.


This is exactly my point. I was happy drafting Ward but not in the second round. I am not calling him a bust either. There were players who outplayed him year one so they look like they were better choices to date. I do understand that some players take longer then others. Nobody expected Ward to be a world beater year one or even believed that he had a chance to beat out the players ahead of him without injuries of course. My 2nd round pick should be able to compete for a starting job or a rotational role year one. Not that they will perform but you should go into camp believing they have a shot.


That is where many need to readjust there expectations when looking at drafted players than. Reggie clearly thought of Ward as a project and took him in the 2nd anyway. He wasn't hung up on the expectations just because of the round the guy was taken. As long as you cling to those rigid draft tropes you're gonna be disappointed more times than not.



The issue I feel is not that we drafted a project player in Ward, and not entirely that we drafted him higher than his level of college play would suggest he should go, I think the issue is that having watched him play a large part of the season, if you're advocating for him what exactly can you point to as indications that he'll turn the corner and become not just a solid player but a player worthy of being picked high in the second round.

I get that his H/W/S are interesting stats, but for me his athleticism was not exceptional, merely good. When he played I saw a player who played way too high, didn't know how to use his hands effectively and didn't have any polished pass rush moves to speak of, didn't understand leverage and wasn't particularly strong or explosive. Now, I agree that we should give him time and we should be patient but I am a little concerned with just how lacking he was at the basics of DL play. To me, Latham came in and was instantly better in terms of functional strength, leverage, holding the point of attack and showed flashes of agility and explosiveness right off the bat.

I'm not dismissing Ward's potential to improve (and he should improve) but I am definitely concerned with just how much he has to work on and the probability he will improve enough in so many areas to be considered a good pick at the high cost we drafted him. I sincerely hope he proves a lot of us wrong, but from the evidence shown he has a very long way to go unfortunately. If I recall correctly, he wasn't even suited up for the last couple games so it's debatable that he improved much throughout the season as some claim they saw.



I point to the exact thing that you marginalized in your statement, his H/W/S. I also think his athleticism has the chance to combine with those above traits and his increased technique and experience to the type of player that we looked for him to be. When that happens depends on a lot of different factors.
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Darbsk


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 1998
Location: Wales, UK
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:
drfrey13 wrote:
Synyster wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
I didn't dislike the Ward pick because of the player as much on guys we passed him for. In particular, I would have loved A'Shawn Robinson at that pick. He's an absolute bull of a man and can completely dominate in the run game and push the pocket.


I thought he was a raw tweener type heading into the NFL with an uphill battle ahead of him. A round later I'd be okay with it though.


This is exactly my point. I was happy drafting Ward but not in the second round. I am not calling him a bust either. There were players who outplayed him year one so they look like they were better choices to date. I do understand that some players take longer then others. Nobody expected Ward to be a world beater year one or even believed that he had a chance to beat out the players ahead of him without injuries of course. My 2nd round pick should be able to compete for a starting job or a rotational role year one. Not that they will perform but you should go into camp believing they have a shot.


That is where many need to readjust there expectations when looking at drafted players than. Reggie clearly thought of Ward as a project and took him in the 2nd anyway. He wasn't hung up on the expectations just because of the round the guy was taken. As long as you cling to those rigid draft tropes you're gonna be disappointed more times than not.



The issue I feel is not that we drafted a project player in Ward, and not entirely that we drafted him higher than his level of college play would suggest he should go, I think the issue is that having watched him play a large part of the season, if you're advocating for him what exactly can you point to as indications that he'll turn the corner and become not just a solid player but a player worthy of being picked high in the second round.

I get that his H/W/S are interesting stats, but for me his athleticism was not exceptional, merely good. When he played I saw a player who played way too high, didn't know how to use his hands effectively and didn't have any polished pass rush moves to speak of, didn't understand leverage and wasn't particularly strong or explosive. Now, I agree that we should give him time and we should be patient but I am a little concerned with just how lacking he was at the basics of DL play. To me, Latham came in and was instantly better in terms of functional strength, leverage, holding the point of attack and showed flashes of agility and explosiveness right off the bat.

I'm not dismissing Ward's potential to improve (and he should improve) but I am definitely concerned with just how much he has to work on and the probability he will improve enough in so many areas to be considered a good pick at the high cost we drafted him. I sincerely hope he proves a lot of us wrong, but from the evidence shown he has a very long way to go unfortunately. If I recall correctly, he wasn't even suited up for the last couple games so it's debatable that he improved much throughout the season as some claim they saw.



I point to the exact thing that you marginalized in your statement, his H/W/S. I also think his athleticism has the chance to combine with those above traits and his increased technique and experience to the type of player that we looked for him to be. When that happens depends on a lot of different factors.


Fair enough, I just didn't see the upside yet in the actual game play - I hope you're right and he makes a huge leap this year Smile
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Marquel Lee sure does look the part at least
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From notes of the 2 day of Rookie camp, Pagano has been leaning his council toward the secondary. I heard early on that he was brought in to mainly improve the backend. Can't remember who said it but it seems to be happening.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_VZOniXgAIsUwx.jpg:large
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RoyalMajesty51o


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calhoun up to 270lbs while still having his agility. Hopefully, he plays full-time at the 4-3 LDE and RDE instead of at the 4-3 SLB.
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