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#25 Pick: Jabril Peppers
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buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 40893
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ether wrote:
It's crazy nobody was concerned about Ward's coverage ability until we let him go and had to rationalize a reason outside of horrible judgement. It's like when they thought Marecic was going to fit the role of "west coast FB" (lmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaooooooooo) in Pat Shurmur's system.

If Jabrill Peppers is a TJ Ward caliber player that's an excellent pick. They aren't really similar though. Ward probably always going to be better in run support and hitting. Peppers looks like a better athlete.


What do you mean nobody was concerned about Ward's coverage ability? I want to say there were a couple games where Ward's ability to cover costed the Browns.

I know when he was in Cleveland I question his ability to cover and I know others did to. His final year in Cleveland was the first year he improved his ability to cover and it took his game to the next level
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Ether


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
buno67 wrote:
TommyLF wrote:
buno67 wrote:
Yeah he made Corners better because they knew they weren't going to have safety help over the top.

Only time a safety will make a corner better is when they know when they have help over the top and allows Corners to be more aggressive with man coverage and press techniques.

No one has ever said "if I get beat deep, TJ Ward will be able to handle the WR deep."


If Peppers turns into TJ Ward, count that as a win. Why are we hating on Ward? He may have been the best safety we have had since we came back


I dont know if its hating on Ward. Ward was good for us but he sure did suck in coverage. The one year he was actually below avg at coverage to go with the rest of his game he was pro bowl. Ward only got brought up in this convo because someone was complaining about the Browns having a safety like Peppers and his name was TJ Ward. Heck if this current FO was in tactic in 2013, I dont think Ward would of even left. This team values resigning its young talent. I believe Sashi and them would of resigned him in a heart beat specially when it comes out he took a cheaper deal in Denver than what Whitner got here.

I was just saying Ward didnt make our corners better. At most I think it was the other way around. The likes of Haden and Gipson made Ward better because those two freed him from some coverage responsibilities. I think the more talent around Ward the better he got. Now I think Peppers is surrounded by a lot of talent. Mainly in the front 7. So if someone wants to try and get over the top on Peppers, that QB better hope he can get the ball off.

I hope Peppers floor is Ward. If that is all Peppers is, that is perfect fine. Because he should make up the difference returning kicks and a couple gadget plays.


Yeah, Haden and Gip are what made Ward good, which is why all of his pro bowl came after he left the Browns and no longer played with them. Its also why Haden and Gip have neither been nearly as good after Ward left. You reasoning is sound, however the proof is in the proverbial pudding.


The year after Ward left Haden and Gipson were both pro bowlers. Both players arguably had career years the year Ward left to Denver.

Ward is a good safety but he isnt making his corners better. I dont see how a safety who isnt good at coverage is going to make the coverage players better?Wards best year in Cleveland was when his FS and DB break through and then went to a team with two stud DBs in Harris and Talib.

Whats next, Ward help made Harris, Talib, and Miller better...


Like this is some strange abstract nonsensical argument. Good players in any system make other good players better. I'd love for you to ask Haden, Gipson, Harris, Miller and Talib if they feel like they were better having a guy like Ward covering shallow zones and eliminating the other teams run game. If Peppers is good he will help everybody in our defense be better as well by performing his responsibility in the defense. That's inherent.
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DizzyDean


Joined: 09 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Letting Ward go for an older, less talented, declining Whitner was one of the most idiotic moves that this team has ever made. It was even more lopsided than if we were to let Cory Coleman go to sign Wes Welker this year.
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Ether


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 2399
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
Ether wrote:
It's crazy nobody was concerned about Ward's coverage ability until we let him go and had to rationalize a reason outside of horrible judgement. It's like when they thought Marecic was going to fit the role of "west coast FB" (lmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaooooooooo) in Pat Shurmur's system.

If Jabrill Peppers is a TJ Ward caliber player that's an excellent pick. They aren't really similar though. Ward probably always going to be better in run support and hitting. Peppers looks like a better athlete.


What do you mean nobody was concerned about Ward's coverage ability? I want to say there were a couple games where Ward's ability to cover costed the Browns.

I know when he was in Cleveland I question his ability to cover and I know others did to. His final year in Cleveland was the first year he improved his ability to cover and it took his game to the next level


I mean it was a recognized weakness in his game that comes with being 5'10 and asked to cover TE's. He got better in zone, but if you were to ask a Browns fan about TJ Ward before we released him it would have been "potential to be the best SS in the game" "maybe top 5 safety in the league"

After we signed Whitner all y'all could talk about was how much better we were gonna be now we had a guy who could cover.
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Ether


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DizzyDean wrote:
Letting Ward go for an older, less talented, declining Whitner was one of the most idiotic moves that this team has ever made. It was even more lopsided than if we were to let Cory Coleman go to sign Wes Welker this year.


Preach
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buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 40893
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ether wrote:
buno67 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
buno67 wrote:
TommyLF wrote:
buno67 wrote:
Yeah he made Corners better because they knew they weren't going to have safety help over the top.

Only time a safety will make a corner better is when they know when they have help over the top and allows Corners to be more aggressive with man coverage and press techniques.

No one has ever said "if I get beat deep, TJ Ward will be able to handle the WR deep."


If Peppers turns into TJ Ward, count that as a win. Why are we hating on Ward? He may have been the best safety we have had since we came back


I dont know if its hating on Ward. Ward was good for us but he sure did suck in coverage. The one year he was actually below avg at coverage to go with the rest of his game he was pro bowl. Ward only got brought up in this convo because someone was complaining about the Browns having a safety like Peppers and his name was TJ Ward. Heck if this current FO was in tactic in 2013, I dont think Ward would of even left. This team values resigning its young talent. I believe Sashi and them would of resigned him in a heart beat specially when it comes out he took a cheaper deal in Denver than what Whitner got here.

I was just saying Ward didnt make our corners better. At most I think it was the other way around. The likes of Haden and Gipson made Ward better because those two freed him from some coverage responsibilities. I think the more talent around Ward the better he got. Now I think Peppers is surrounded by a lot of talent. Mainly in the front 7. So if someone wants to try and get over the top on Peppers, that QB better hope he can get the ball off.

I hope Peppers floor is Ward. If that is all Peppers is, that is perfect fine. Because he should make up the difference returning kicks and a couple gadget plays.


Yeah, Haden and Gip are what made Ward good, which is why all of his pro bowl came after he left the Browns and no longer played with them. Its also why Haden and Gip have neither been nearly as good after Ward left. You reasoning is sound, however the proof is in the proverbial pudding.


The year after Ward left Haden and Gipson were both pro bowlers. Both players arguably had career years the year Ward left to Denver.

Ward is a good safety but he isnt making his corners better. I dont see how a safety who isnt good at coverage is going to make the coverage players better?Wards best year in Cleveland was when his FS and DB break through and then went to a team with two stud DBs in Harris and Talib.

Whats next, Ward help made Harris, Talib, and Miller better...


Like this is some strange abstract nonsensical argument. Good players in any system make other good players better. I'd love for you to ask Haden, Gipson, Harris, Miller and Talib if they feel like they were better having a guy like Ward covering shallow zones and eliminating the other teams run game. If Peppers is good he will help everybody in our defense be better as well by performing his responsibility in the defense. That's inherent.


Or we could ask Ward, how it felt knowing you didnt have to worry about the outside WR because you knew the corners were going to take care of it or knew he didnt have to play over the top because of the ability of the others in the secondary, allowing him to be more aggressive towards the LOS.

If Peppers is good, its going to help everyone on the defense because the Browns have had garbage at the SS position since Ward left.
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buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ether wrote:
buno67 wrote:
Ether wrote:
It's crazy nobody was concerned about Ward's coverage ability until we let him go and had to rationalize a reason outside of horrible judgement. It's like when they thought Marecic was going to fit the role of "west coast FB" (lmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaooooooooo) in Pat Shurmur's system.

If Jabrill Peppers is a TJ Ward caliber player that's an excellent pick. They aren't really similar though. Ward probably always going to be better in run support and hitting. Peppers looks like a better athlete.


What do you mean nobody was concerned about Ward's coverage ability? I want to say there were a couple games where Ward's ability to cover costed the Browns.

I know when he was in Cleveland I question his ability to cover and I know others did to. His final year in Cleveland was the first year he improved his ability to cover and it took his game to the next level


I mean it was a recognized weakness in his game that comes with being 5'10 and asked to cover TE's. He got better in zone, but if you were to ask a Browns fan about TJ Ward before we released him it would have been "potential to be the best SS in the game" "maybe top 5 safety in the league"

After we signed Whitner all y'all could talk about was how much better we were gonna be now we had a guy who could cover.


I dont remember many people pounding their chest about Whitner. I want to say everyone was dumbfounded about the move. Some people had hope and were trusting the FO because Whitner was coming off a good run with the 49ers but no one was choosing Whitner over Ward. Heck when the contracts came out and we found out Whiter costed more than Ward, it made everyone scratch their head
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buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DizzyDean wrote:
Letting Ward go for an older, less talented, declining Whitner was one of the most idiotic moves that this team has ever made. It was even more lopsided than if we were to let Cory Coleman go to sign Wes Welker this year.


completely agree, Browns have the potential and a solid young core secondary in Ward, Haden, and Gipson. They should of kept that trio together.

Just another feather in the Farmer hate The was the 2nd worse move he ever made. 1st was drafting Manziel, 2nd was letting Ward walk, and 3rd was drafting Gilbert. If we needed a 4th it be drafting Erving.
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AkronsWitness


Joined: 17 Jul 2015
Posts: 1623
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been warming up to the Peppers pick but the comparisons to TJ Ward are completely accurate. They are very very similar in play styles. Peppers just is more of a flashy name and player because of his versatility as a returner and funny package weapon on offense.

He is going to play as a SS, asked to cover in the slot (TEs, Zone) and move around the front 7 as a extra linebacker so he can make plays around the LOS.

Very little should be expected of him as a deep safety in coverage because hes simply not a single high type player like people who wanted Hooker is. They are complete opposites.

Weirdly I view his play style to Jamie Collins, but the smaller version. He can cover in short areas, blitz off the edge and roam around to make plays against the run. Not saying they are the same player--but their play styles in this defense will be similar. Just on opposite sides. With all of the versitile players we are getting (Peppers, Collins, Kirksey, Howard) I think we will see a bunch of 'Amoeba" type looks to disguise blitzers and coverage with a bunch of guys who can do different things. Should see a loooooooot of edge, corner and delayed blitzes
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Ether


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 2399
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:


Or we could ask Ward, how it felt knowing you didnt have to worry about the outside WR because you knew the corners were going to take care of it or knew he didnt have to play over the top because of the ability of the others in the secondary, allowing him to be more aggressive towards the LOS.

If Peppers is good, its going to help everyone on the defense because the Browns have had garbage at the SS position since Ward left.


That's kind of the basis of my original argument anyways. That's a mutual benefit good players on defense give each other. I bet if Haden didn't have a revolving door at safety he wouldn't look nearly as bad as he did when they blew over the top coverage he expected to have.

buno67 wrote:


I dont remember many people pounding their chest about Whitner. I want to say everyone was dumbfounded about the move. Some people had hope and were trusting the FO because Whitner was coming off a good run with the 49ers but no one was choosing Whitner over Ward. Heck when the contracts came out and we found out Whiter costed more than Ward, it made everyone scratch their head


You probably know better the general sentiment here than I do. I remember being so dumbfounded though that any concession that it was a good move probably sent me down an infinite loop of [inappropriate/removed].

I mostly just lurk here anyways.
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wukusimw


Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Posts: 711
Location: Vermilion
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So in the least he's ward in run support and hitting? Plus a 1st next year? Also a return man. That would be a win in my book. Ward was a fairly linear player though, while pep played some cb. I love that versatility to be able to put him at nick. Or even in a Buchanon role spying rb's. Wherever he's at he's going to excel.
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Kiwibrown


Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 3326
Location: NZ
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ether wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Letting Ward go for an older, less talented, declining Whitner was one of the most idiotic moves that this team has ever made. It was even more lopsided than if we were to let Cory Coleman go to sign Wes Welker this year.


Preach


Ray farmer special.

Whitner was 'better in coverage' than Ward from analytical point of view, that didn't factor in he was in one of the best defenses in the league.

Whitner was ok in coverage, in a great defense that aldon Smith and justin smith going after the QB.

aldon smith was unreal for a small portion of time.
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Ether


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wukusimw wrote:
So in the least he's ward in run support and hitting? Plus a 1st next year? Also a return man. That would be a win in my book. Ward was a fairly linear player though, while pep played some cb. I love that versatility to be able to put him at nick. Or even in a Buchanon role spying rb's. Wherever he's at he's going to excel.


In the least? No lmao. That's ridiculous.


Kiwibrown wrote:
Ether wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Letting Ward go for an older, less talented, declining Whitner was one of the most idiotic moves that this team has ever made. It was even more lopsided than if we were to let Cory Coleman go to sign Wes Welker this year.


Preach


Ray farmer special.

Whitner was 'better in coverage' than Ward from analytical point of view, that didn't factor in he was in one of the best defenses in the league.

Whitner was ok in coverage, in a great defense that aldon Smith and justin smith going after the QB.

aldon smith was unreal for a small portion of time.


The first like half of the 2015 season for Donte Whitner was probably the worst I've ever seen from an individual defender on the Browns ever. Dude could not even tackle and that's what he was here to do. He picked it up a bit the second half though.
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Kiwibrown


Joined: 01 May 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ether wrote:
wukusimw wrote:
So in the least he's ward in run support and hitting? Plus a 1st next year? Also a return man. That would be a win in my book. Ward was a fairly linear player though, while pep played some cb. I love that versatility to be able to put him at nick. Or even in a Buchanon role spying rb's. Wherever he's at he's going to excel.


In the least? No lmao. That's ridiculous.


Kiwibrown wrote:
Ether wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Letting Ward go for an older, less talented, declining Whitner was one of the most idiotic moves that this team has ever made. It was even more lopsided than if we were to let Cory Coleman go to sign Wes Welker this year.


Preach


Ray farmer special.

Whitner was 'better in coverage' than Ward from analytical point of view, that didn't factor in he was in one of the best defenses in the league.

Whitner was ok in coverage, in a great defense that aldon Smith and justin smith going after the QB.

aldon smith was unreal for a small portion of time.


The first like half of the 2015 season for Donte Whitner was probably the worst I've ever seen from an individual defender on the Browns ever. Dude could not even tackle and that's what he was here to do. He picked it up a bit the second half though.


He was good at lining eveyrone up, that is the only thing we missed when he left.
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roger murdock


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing summarizes Donte Whitners career as a Brown more than the 3rd and 1 play vs the Cardinals.

Whitner shoots the gap, hits David Johnson in the backfield, and starts celebrating his amazing play.

He never finished the play. Johnsons knee never touched the ground. He ran forward and got 3-4 yards and a first down while Whitner was celebrating with his back turned. Next play was a touchdown pass over Whitners head.

All talk, all hype, all BS, no results. I hate Dante Whitner.
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