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Kirk Cousins...No Long Term Deal...Discuss
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nabbs4u wrote:
RSkinGM wrote:
Nabbs4u wrote:
RSkinGM wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
This article by Keim makes it seem like if Cousins signs the transition tag next year, and doesn't accept another team's offer, that we have control over him in 2019 too. Is that true? I've never seen that said anywhere else before. I thought 2018 was our last year of control over Cousins no matter what.

Quote:
The 49ers -- or another team -- could make a heavily front-loaded deal with a player opt-out clause for the second year, much like the deal Alex Mack signed three years ago when under the transition tag with Cleveland. A year later, he opted out and bolted. If the Redskins matched such an offer, they would do so knowing Cousins could simply leave in 2019. It becomes an expensive one-year rental. However, if he opted out and signed elsewhere, the Redskins would receive a compensatory draft pick. If they fail to match the original offer, they wouldn’t receive compensation. If Cousins doesn’t get the offer he wants, or from the team he wants, he could always sign the tag and do this dance all over again in 2019.


Yes, he can be tagged again in 2019--at another 44% pay increase .
My question is -Has a player ever been traded under the Franchise Tag ? AND why couldn't that player , if traded, be able to negotiate a new contract with the new team since they didn't tag him ?


Unless your asking for a box of Juicy Fruits, No team is going to pay the Draft pick compensation required via "Trade" on top of paying him 25-30M. That will Never happen. Better question is Has any player in the history of the NFL ever been Franchised 3 straight years? Has it Ever happened to the supposed Face of the Franchise? Pretty sure the answer to both is No.

Your FO and Owner could probably mess up a wet dream if given the chance. That's how badly they screwed the situation. Sad really and I don't even like Cousins.


I wouldn't like him either if he beat me twice last season . Cool


Was that meant as a jab? It's to be expected really facing a Rookie QB and Rookie HC. Unless you're the New York Football Giants. We own them no matter what the situation. Either way the Eagles and the NFCE as a whole really wins with Such Stupidity. Either

A: Washington has to Pay Cousins 30M a season on a LTD (He won't sign regardless) hampering future contracts for the other 52 man roster for years to come?
Or
B: Let's the best QB the past two decades walk for nothing to show having to enter the FA pool and Draft yet again in hopes of finding "another" FQBOTF.

Win-Win
Well, we can transition tag him and we'll be able to match whatever deal he may get and he may not get a deal that we all think he likely will. That all remains to be seen. His market could look totally different next year if other teams are looking to the draft to take Qbs because the 2018 Draft is supposed to have a great Qb class.

Having Kirk make $24 million has not hurt our ability to build a good roster. We arguably have our most talented and deepest roster since 91-92 thanks to good drafting since 2014 and a few others like Trent Williams, Ryan Kerrigan and Kirk Couins and we've signed some good players in free agency. Our defense appears to be better than it's been since 2011 and our offense is deep as well.

I honestly think the national media is sleeping on us and hyping up the other teams in the division too much. The Eagles have acquired some good talent but you still have a young qb and just like with us, there's a question as to how your free agent signings will work out. So, I'm not sure why most media think you're definitely going to be better than the Redskins. The Cowboys have all kinds of question marks on their defense and it's going to be an issue. The Giants have question marks, particularly along their OL again. It should be an issue for them. To me, there's no clear cut favorite in the NFCE, it's going to be a highly contested race and any of the teams could win the division and there's a possibility that we get two teams in the NFCE as wild cards because the teams seems to be that much improved over last year's rosters.
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Last edited by turtle28 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nabbs4u


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Nabbs4u wrote:
RSkinGM wrote:
Nabbs4u wrote:
RSkinGM wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
This article by Keim makes it seem like if Cousins signs the transition tag next year, and doesn't accept another team's offer, that we have control over him in 2019 too. Is that true? I've never seen that said anywhere else before. I thought 2018 was our last year of control over Cousins no matter what.

Quote:
The 49ers -- or another team -- could make a heavily front-loaded deal with a player opt-out clause for the second year, much like the deal Alex Mack signed three years ago when under the transition tag with Cleveland. A year later, he opted out and bolted. If the Redskins matched such an offer, they would do so knowing Cousins could simply leave in 2019. It becomes an expensive one-year rental. However, if he opted out and signed elsewhere, the Redskins would receive a compensatory draft pick. If they fail to match the original offer, they wouldn’t receive compensation. If Cousins doesn’t get the offer he wants, or from the team he wants, he could always sign the tag and do this dance all over again in 2019.


Yes, he can be tagged again in 2019--at another 44% pay increase .
My question is -Has a player ever been traded under the Franchise Tag ? AND why couldn't that player , if traded, be able to negotiate a new contract with the new team since they didn't tag him ?


Unless your asking for a box of Juicy Fruits, No team is going to pay the Draft pick compensation required via "Trade" on top of paying him 25-30M. That will Never happen. Better question is Has any player in the history of the NFL ever been Franchised 3 straight years? Has it Ever happened to the supposed Face of the Franchise? Pretty sure the answer to both is No.

Your FO and Owner could probably mess up a wet dream if given the chance. That's how badly they screwed the situation. Sad really and I don't even like Cousins.


I wouldn't like him either if he beat me twice last season . Cool


Was that meant as a jab? It's to be expected really facing a Rookie QB and Rookie HC. Unless you're the New York Football Giants. We own them no matter what the situation. Either way the Eagles and the NFCE as a whole really wins with Such Stupidity. Either

A: Washington has to Pay Cousins 30M a season on a LTD (He won't sign regardless) hampering future contracts for the other 52 man roster for years to come?
Or
B: Let's the best QB the past two decades walk for nothing to show having to enter the FA pool and Draft yet again in hopes of finding "another" FQBOTF.

Win-Win
Well, we can transaction tag him and we'll be able to match whatever deal he may get and he may not get a deal that we all think he likely will. That all remains to be seen. His market could look totally different next year if other teams are looking to the draft to take Qbs because the 2018 Draft is supposed to have a great Qb class.

Having Kirk make $24 million has not hurt our ability to build a good roster. We arguably have our most talented and deepest roster since 91-92 thanks to good drafting since 2014 and a few others like Trent Williams, Ryan Kerrigan and Kirk Couins and we've signed some good players in free agency. Our defense appears to be better than it's been since 2011 and our offense is deep as well.

I honestly think the national media is sleeping on us and hyping up the other teams in the division too much. The Eagles have acquired some good talent but you still have a young qb and just like with us, there's a question as to how your free agent signings will work out. So, I'm not sure why most media think you're definitely going to be better than the Redskins. The Cowboys have all kinds of question marks on their defense and it's going to be an issue. The Giants have question marks, particularly along their OL again. It should be an issue for them. To me, there's no clear cut favorite in the NFCE, it's going to be a highly contested race and any of the teams could win the division and there's a possibility that we get two teams in the NFCE as wild cards because the teams seems to be that much improved over last year's rosters.


To be clear I wasn't suggesting the Eagles are or will be better in 2017. Can they be, absolutely.

My point was those players you are referring too as building blocks will need to be paid or expect a pay raise with ever growing Salaries in the coming years. Paying any QB 30M will have consequences. It's why Seattle is now struggling to pay their own players after finally having to pay Wilson. Talking about trading Sherman. Letting players leave. It's why teams with QB on Rookie Contracts can build around said player assuming their legit.

The Transition Tag is a pipe dream as well because the contract can be constructed to prevent Washington from matching. Poison Pill type language without "being" a Poison pill contract. You simply don't Low-ball a FQB. Ask him to prove himself 2 years in a row despite setting Redskin Passing records only to low-ball him again. Cousins could literally have been signed 2 years ago (Happily Signed) for 18-20M a season and given as much in Guarantees over a 6-7 yr span as he's received for the last 2 Franchised Tags and been cut after this season if he sucked with very little cap consequences!!!

They screwed the pooch now matter how this plays out.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nabbs4u wrote:
To be clear I wasn't suggesting the Eagles are or will be better in 2017. Can they be, absolutely.
Oh ok, sorry. It still bugs me how the Redskins get no respect - particularly from the national media - although they are returning the qb who's been most consistent in the Division over the last two years but I guess when looking at our running game and defense over the last two years thay haven't been great or even good and that factors into their analysis as well. It still bugs me though how almost everyone picks us to be last in the division every year.

Quote:
My point was those players you are referring too as building blocks will need to be paid or expect a pay raise with ever growing Salaries in the coming years. Paying any QB 30M will have consequences. It's why Seattle is now struggling to pay their own players after finally having to pay Wilson. Talking about trading Sherman. Letting players leave. It's why teams with QB on Rookie Contracts can build around said player assuming their legit.
Sure, we won't be able to keep all of our free agents. We will prioritize which ones we can keep and be able to keep some and sign others to replace those we can't.

We have also done a better job at developing young talent - particularly mid round, late round and undrafted free agents - since Jay Gruden has come here. We've had several pleasant surprises that we weren't expecting, two of our staring OL were 2014 3rd round picks, in the previous decade and a half that never happened for example, same with Jamison Crowder, Breeland and others. Heck Cousins and Jordan Reed are examples of that as well.

Here are some examples of our young depth that you may not realize:

1. WR: We may lose Pryor if we can only re-sign Cousins to deal that cost him on avg of $26 million or more a year but let's not forget that if the avg is that it doesn't mean the cap hit will be that. The cap hit will probably be around what Kirk's franchise tag is this year or less on a LTD depending on how the deal is structured.

We also have Jamison Crowder who very well could lead the team in receptions this year, we drafted Josh Doctson last year and Jordan Reed is under contract that we just signed him to last year.

2. We have a solid group of young running backs that are competing for the staring running back job in Robert Kelley, Samaje Perine, Matt Jones, Mack Brown and Keith Marshall. Then we still have Chris Thompson who's developed into a great 3rd down back and change of pace back.

3. We drafted OLBs Preston Smith and Ryan Anderson in the 2nd round of the last two drafts.

4. We drafted Johnathan Allen as DE/DT, and have others that we like and are developing like Anthony Lanier, Matt Ioannidis, Joey Mbu and Ondre Pipkins but we have more work to do there.

5. We drafted Kendall Fuller and Fabian Moreau in the 3rd round of each of the last two drafts to develop behind Norman and Breeland and we have Quinton Dunbar who's developing and is just going into his 3rd year playing corner.

6. We drafted Sua Cravens as a young safety last year, signed DJ Swearinger this offseason (he's only 25) and drafted Montae Nicholson to develop behind them.

We have more work to do with drafting young talent along the DL, at the ILB position, the S position and some more depth to develop at WR & OL in coming years but I think we've made strides in th3 department of developing young players.

I'm not as concerned with having to replace Free agents we may lose or having to over pay for other teams free agents as we used to in the past because of how well we are drafting and developing our own lately as well as finding bargain deal free agents who have helped us out a lot.


Quote:
The Transition Tag is a pipe dream as well because the contract can be constructed to prevent Washington from matching. Poison Pill type language without "being" a Poison pill contract. You simply don't Low-ball a FQB. Ask him to prove himself 2 years in a row despite setting Redskin Passing records only to low-ball him again. Cousins could literally have been signed 2 years ago (Happily Signed) for 18-20M a season and given as much in Guarantees over a 6-7 yr span as he's received for the last 2 Franchised Tags and been cut after this season if he sucked with very little cap consequences!!!

They screwed the pooch now matter how this plays out.
Totally true about the transition tag, I guess we'll have to see what happens. I honestly don't even know if language is put into Cousins' contract from another team next year such as "if Cousins plays a game in Landover, MD or Virginia his contract is void" will be allowed by the NFL or NFLPA. I guess we'll have to see what happens. I still think that transition tagging him in March of 2018 is the correct move if Kirk and the Skins FO can't come to an agreement in February after the season.

It's definitely true they screwed the pooch after the 2015 season and haven't been able to lock up Kirk since. IMO he should have never played under the tag. Some, but not most Skins fans felt that way at the time. I'm not sure the $18 to $20 m deal would have gotten it done last year because Kirk has made it clear he wants to continue to raise the contracts for Qbs in the NFL and I'm not sure he will sign a deal that won't raise the bar for NFL QB contracts until it's obvious he has no chance of getting a deal that will raise the bar for NFL Qbs contracts.
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah turtle, Kirk is going to have a Great year for us and then go play in San Fran
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
Yeah turtle, Kirk is going to have a Great year for us and then go play in San Fran
Maybe, maybe not. That remains to be seen. If the Redskins are great this year I don't think either side will want a divorce and they'll finally sit down and really truly negotiate a ltd but if that doesn't happen I think he'll be Transition tagged and then we'll see what happens when he signs other teams offer sheets.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
DCRED wrote:
Yeah turtle, Kirk is going to have a Great year for us and then go play in San Fran
Maybe, maybe not. That remains to be seen. If the Redskins are great this year I don't think either side will want a divorce and they'll finally sit down and really truly negotiate a ltd but if that doesn't happen I think he'll be Transition tagged and then we'll see what happens when he signs other teams offer sheets.


Kirk doesn't want to be here.
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lavar703


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then get rid of him.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slateman wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
DCRED wrote:
Yeah turtle, Kirk is going to have a Great year for us and then go play in San Fran
Maybe, maybe not. That remains to be seen. If the Redskins are great this year I don't think either side will want a divorce and they'll finally sit down and really truly negotiate a ltd but if that doesn't happen I think he'll be Transition tagged and then we'll see what happens when he signs other teams offer sheets.


Kirk doesn't want to be here.
We've had this conversation for pages, at this point it's virtually impossible to get rid of him for anything of value. I wish it wasn't true but I believe it is true and Kirk hasn't shut the door on signing long term here. He just said with all the changes that have gone on this offseason he wants to see how the next 6 months go, he said in the end he may feel this is the best place for him. That is why it is important that he has a great season and the team does as well, if that happens he may sign with us long term next February.
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Doc Draper


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree this thread has been beaten to death or ridden hard and put up wet. I for one am looking for something fresher
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doc Draper wrote:
I agree this thread has been beaten to death or ridden hard and put up wet. I for one am looking for something fresher
Eventually we'll have another Cousins thread and then all the old arguments will rise again. It's a vicious cycle we've been through on this site with every qb we've signed traded for or drafted for 15 years. Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ending to this is so incredibly obvious. Kirk didn't even respond to their offer citing "god" as his reason why. The reality is he's just too nice to say he hates it here. He'll keep signing franchise tags because it's guaranteed money and he'll play in an offense he enjoys but at the end of the day he's not signing long-term here no matter what. That ship has sailed, been out to the Atlantic and sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

They can try to force the issue here with the transition tag but San Fran is going to sign him to a deal that this front office will never match. Sadly that will give Bruce his built in excuse to explain away what happened. They'll blame it all on Kirk and we'll draft Josh Rosen and market our new star. Bruce made a mess of this but he'll never accept the blame. This is our life now with Vinnie 2.0.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lavar703 wrote:
The ending to this is so incredibly obvious. Kirk didn't even respond to their offer citing "god" as his reason why. The reality is he's just too nice to say he hates it here. He'll keep signing franchise tags because it's guaranteed money and he'll play in an offense he enjoys but at the end of the day he's not signing long-term here no matter what. That ship has sailed, been out to the Atlantic and sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

They can try to force the issue here with the transition tag but San Fran is going to sign him to a deal that this front office will never match. Sadly that will give Bruce his built in excuse to explain away what happened. They'll blame it all on Kirk and we'll draft Josh Rosen and market our new star. Bruce made a mess of this but he'll never accept the blame. This is our life now with Vinnie 2.0.
Sadly, as much as I don't want to agree with this, this take is almost surely spot on.

Instead of drafting a qb, we could also sign Garapolo or trade for Aj McCarron. McCarron is an restricted free agent. As much as it would suck to start completely over at qb, I think most of us can realize that our team is pretty young on both sides of the ball and drafting/signing a Qb that's younger 3 to 8 years younger than Cousins to grow and develop with the reat of our young team may not end up being the worst thing in the world in the long run.

Sure there will be growing pains as there was with Kirk in 2014 & the first half of 2015 but look at how far Kirk has come. There's no reason to doubt that the qb whisperer - aka Jay Gruden - won't be able to do what he did with Dalton, Cousins and McCoy for another young qb. I mean let's be honest, Jay's system is a qb friendly system so much so that Colt Mccoy - who has below average arm strength - can throw for 300 yard twice in the 3 games he started and finished in 2014 and nearly 400 yards vs the Colts.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Kirk cousins re-signs with us in the end. Even if he doesn't it will suck but we are in the right direction and with him not coming back can open up the cap and have us easily resign guys like Pryor/crowder/ and long /

Remember Jay Gruden was the one who found a way to make Cousins work his offense flourish everyone heck even rg3 started to show something .

with Reed and Pryor and Crowded as possibly the future any QB that comes here will have cool toys .

Be positive guys atleast our record jumped up to avg 7 wins a year bs the old 5-11 seasons
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dashing wrote:
I think Kirk cousins re-signs with us in the end. Even if he doesn't it will suck but we are in the right direction and with him not coming back can open up the cap and have us easily resign guys like Pryor/crowder/ and long /

Remember Jay Gruden was the one who found a way to make Cousins work his offense flourish everyone heck even rg3 started to show something .

with Reed and Pryor and Crowder as possibly the future any QB that comes here will have cool toys .

Be positive guys atleast our record jumped up to avg 7 wins a year bs the old 5-11 seasons
It's almost a guarantee that Pryor will leave if Kirk isn't back, heck, he may follow Kirk to SF or to the NYJ. Of course we could franchise Pryor next season so he can't leave and see if he could develop chemistry with another qb if Kirk isn't bavk next year.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For all of those who said Kirk and his agent should have countered, consider this:

It's a contract negotiation. The Redskins offered something at the bottom of the barrel to set the floor for them to come up from. Most likely, had they chosen to offer, Kirk and his agent would have offered a high contract to set the ceiling from them to come down from.

Had they offered that ceiling contract, do any of you believe for one second that the Redskins would not have leaked that counter to the press in a heart beat? They tried to spike him after the deadline was over. You don't think they would have said "well, he was asking for this pie-in-the-sky deal, and we couldn't do that and he never came down from it?"

C'mon now. They're sewer rats.
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