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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3166
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
Elway has stated many times he drafts with an eye to the future. He's not overly concerned with a players impact his rookie season but expecting great things in his second.

This draft seems to follow that trend. Lots of promise, little polish. With a year of NFL training these guys should look a lot different entering 2018 and ready to make significant contributions.

If you're looking for immediate impact use FA, long term solutions use the draft.

For what it's worth we could have gone a few ways with our 1st and I'd been happy. Drafting Foster, trading up one spot to grab Howard or staying put for Bolles. I'd be just as pleased if we'd gone another direction but have no issues at all with the choice they made.


Thankyou! This is my biggest selling point in my opinion there's two different defintions to reaches the first eveyone seems to know taking a player too early. The other is trying to fill all your needs in one draft so you go bpa every round in position of need.

Now, Elway had an approach I agree with it most don't but the priority 1 in this off season was improving the oline . They added Bolles, Leary, Watson you can check this box. Could he have done more maybe but you'd be taking away from other areas you wanted to actress. See every game where the offense stalled dur to pressure, or lack of push in the ground game.
2) improve defensive trenches they added peko, Kerr, Watson check this box it was a huge need they wore down in the Oakland game early in the season an many other's. That one stands out because it's a divisional games.
3) Improve skill positions and special team talents - check this off with adding both Hendersons and Mckenzie. Again another division rival proved this tyreek hill killed us both games on offense and special teams he was a nightmare they want another nightmare.
4) We wanted an inline tight end- Kelce is in the similar mold he is the qbs best friend we might of found that in Butt.

We addressed 4 major needs while adding a tight end coming off injury with high upside.

What's wrong with this mindset?
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Counselor


Joined: 31 Jan 2017
Posts: 2090
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roar2014 wrote:
BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
Henderson turns 25 this year also. These old rookies man


Doesn't bode well for route running development if the kid is already 25 IMO.

Elway seems to only want to draft people old enough to rent cars.


He is 22...


DeAngelo
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In reference to concern about Joshua Dobbs' Knees

48 1/2ers wrote:
Ostriches have inverted knees and they're pretty athletic...


GIF of Ostrich Running Here...

The Wheat Grass Shooting Hippies made me get rid of it...
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 6942
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counselor wrote:
Henderson turns 25 this year also. These old rookies man


Somebodies been lying to ya. His bday is 12/19/94. He's only 22.
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Counselor


Joined: 31 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
Counselor wrote:
Henderson turns 25 this year also. These old rookies man


Somebodies been lying to ya. His bday is 12/19/94. He's only 22.


DeAngelo I should have been more clear. A 24/25 year old rookie RB isn't going to last long.
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In reference to concern about Joshua Dobbs' Knees

48 1/2ers wrote:
Ostriches have inverted knees and they're pretty athletic...


GIF of Ostrich Running Here...

The Wheat Grass Shooting Hippies made me get rid of it...
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3166
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counselor wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
Counselor wrote:
Henderson turns 25 this year also. These old rookies man


Somebodies been lying to ya. His bday is 12/19/94. He's only 22.


DeAngelo I should have been more clear. A 24/25 year old rookie RB isn't going to last long.


But everyone loved the Booker pick?

Do you think it would of mattered of cj anderson was a year older? I don't think it would of it's the wear and tear once in the NFL.
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BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 3886
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya, RB are so disposable that I care less about their age than any position. Grind them for a few years and throw them in the trash. Its absurd to me that anyone plays that position anymore with the long term repercussions and super low contract averages.
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 19481
Location: Loveland, CO
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul-mac wrote:
Anyone else feel this draft was a bit McDaniels esque?

Almost felt like we were drafting off a short board and locking into players, obsessed with adding special teamers on day 3 and most of our picks were reaches.

I agree, this draft was very much McDaniels-esque, almost disturbingly so. I think that is due to a number of factors.

One, Elway has talked a lot since the day he was hired about building consensus in the draft room and getting input from his coaches. In each draft prior to this one, we had a real head coach and a real defensive coordinator. This year we have rookies.

Two, we lost our Director of College Scouting in Adam Peters, who, coincidentally, joined Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch in San Francisco. Interestingly, the HC we should have hired and our former DCS had one of the best drafts bar none in the league.

Three, Matt "buy me a drink" Russell, who was also heavily-involved in the looming disaster that is the Vance hire, is a McDaniels lackey who for some inexplicable reason survived the house cleaning that took place in the 2011-2012 period. Mark Thewes, Mac's best friend, also survived and wields considerable power at Dove Valley. And lets not forget that a McDaniels protege is now our offensive coordinator.

Fourth, in McDaniels-esque fashion, Elway & Co. attempted multiple times to trade up for the player (Walker and Bolles) whom they targeted pre-draft. The Bolles pick is worst first round pick of the Elway era, easily, and they tried to trade up for him, reminds me of the Tim Tebow, Alphonso Smith and Richard Quinn picks.

I've called this draft was a reach for need draft, and it's clear that's what it is. Unfortunately our second-biggest need, run defense, was not addressed (at all) in either the draft or (seriously) in free agency.

We got an under-sized OT despite the fact that the team says they want to run a (McDaniels-like) power blocking scheme. We drafted an athlete, an athlete with poor technique, a slight lower body and a intelligence questions, not a mauler. We got a slot WR who can't run routes. We got a DE who will be liability against the run. We got a TE with a torn ACL who is chain-mover and not a field stretcher, which might make sense since our OC runs a dink-and-dunk offense that doesn't throw the ball more than 7 yards down field (and for the record Butt is my favorite pick in this draft, and the only pick I like). We got a QB who's a headcase and potential lockerroom cancer and a 170lb WR in what was the most puzzling pick of all.

This was a McDaniels-esque draft and I expect McDaniels-esque results.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 6942
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
paul-mac wrote:
Anyone else feel this draft was a bit McDaniels esque?

Almost felt like we were drafting off a short board and locking into players, obsessed with adding special teamers on day 3 and most of our picks were reaches.

I agree, this draft was very much McDaniels-esque, almost disturbingly so. I think that is due to a number of factors.

One, Elway has talked a lot since the day he was hired about building consensus in the draft room and getting input from his coaches. In each draft prior to this one, we had a real head coach and a real defensive coordinator. This year we have rookies.

Two, we lost our Director of College Scouting in Adam Peters, who, coincidentally, joined Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch in San Francisco. Interestingly, the HC we should have hired and our former DCS had one of the best drafts bar none in the league.

Three, Matt "buy me a drink" Russell, who was also heavily-involved in the looming disaster that is the Vance hire, is a McDaniels lackey who for some inexplicable reason survived the house cleaning that took place in the 2011-2012 period. Mark Thewes, Mac's best friend, also survived and wields considerable power at Dove Valley. And lets not forget that a McDaniels protege is now our offensive coordinator.

Fourth, in McDaniels-esque fashion, Elway & Co. attempted multiple times to trade up for the player (Walker and Bolles) whom they targeted pre-draft. The Bolles pick is worst first round pick of the Elway era, easily, and they tried to trade up for him, reminds me of the Tim Tebow, Alphonso Smith and Richard Quinn picks.

I've called this draft was a reach for need draft, and it's clear that's what it is. Unfortunately our second-biggest need, run defense, was not addressed (at all) in either the draft or (seriously) in free agency.

We got an under-sized OT despite the fact that the team says they want to run a (McDaniels-like) power blocking scheme. We drafted an athlete, an athlete with poor technique, a slight lower body and a intelligence questions, not a mauler. We got a slot WR who can't run routes. We got a DE who will be liability against the run. We got a TE with a torn ACL who is chain-mover and not a field stretcher, which might make sense since our OC runs a dink-and-dunk offense that doesn't throw the ball more than 7 yards down field (and for the record Butt is my favorite pick in this draft, and the only pick I like). We got a QB who's a headcase and potential lockerroom cancer and a 170lb WR in what was the most puzzling pick of all.

This was a McDaniels-esque draft and I expect McDaniels-esque results.


Personally, as terrible as our draft was I really think we should cut them immediately since none of them will ever contribute, save the money and spend it on some UDFA's from CSU.
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champ11


Joined: 14 Apr 2014
Posts: 5850
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the absolutism is hilarious and to be expected. Same with the idea that if you were hired or worked with an incompetent [inappropriate/removed], you are an incompetent [inappropriate/removed] as well.

It's hard to take things that need criticized seriously when everything is way over the top. But I love it
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BroncoBruin


Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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Location: La Mesa, CA
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A tradition unlike any other. I love this place. Razz
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 6942
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncoBruin wrote:
A tradition unlike any other. I love this place. Razz


More than just a tradition!

It's like an annual rite of passage. Laughing
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RB are so disposable nowadays D-Henderson age isn't as much of a problem. The reality nowadays is most RB you should keep around long enough while they are cheap and then move on. I'd expect the Broncos will do that with Booker after 4 cheap years and Henderson after 4 cheap years. If all it costs is a Day 3 pick every other year the risk-return profile is a no brainer.
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This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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mke1010


Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 2749
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broncofan wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
mke1010 wrote:
Football is the only sport where those who know less than the actual professionals sit at home and pass judgment as if they are better suited.
If these folks didn't take themselves so seriously it wld be pure comedy.

If you are so adept at football that you know more than career professionals give up your amateur status. Leave your basement and go get a scouting/management job with an NFL team. Forgo the banter of fan discussion rooms and go get paid to apply your expertise.
Gimme a freaking break.


I'm sorry, but there is nothing that infuriates me more than comments like this. It's a freaking internet football forum. The whole point is to bring people together and discuss football and our particular rooting interests. If you want to read a bunch of cheerleading and very little analysis or actual insight, go to Mile High Report, where Denver could pick a sandwich and the fans would think it was a Hall of Famer.

The whole point of a forum is to discuss and debate points. If everyone just agreed and said "well, we can't have an opinion for 3 years" this place would be awfully boring. Some people (I would imagine quite a few on this forum) follow the draft and discuss football as a hobby. Who cares if they have a strong opinion? If you don't like what's being discussed, then don't post or read during this time of year. But making comments like the above is beyond ridiculous.

By your logic, no one who isn't a part of a particular industry or profession should have an opinion about something unless they "leave their basement" to pursue that field. That's like saying don't be politically active or have political opinions unless you want to run for office. Do some people care more than others? Sure they do. But if someone enjoys talking about the draft and having an opinion about it, who are you to tell them they shouldn't enjoy it because they aren't a professional?


Well said.

The whole point of a Forum is to discuss football with others who love it as much as we do. And frankly, it would be boring to simply all agree.

Posters like AKRNA have, been watching for 50+ years. Others have been avid fans for 30+ years - I started with the real Orange Crush years and Craig Morton. I joined here for 2015's draft as a real novice to in-depth draft scouting, but I've learned a lot from those that loved it enough to post here, Draft Forum, etc. Even if they don't get it right all the time, no one does. Doesn't mean the internet guys are wrong in criticizing, either. No one hits on 100 percent, hell, even the GM's who have all the info we don't miss at a crazy rate past Round 1.

And even if you've only been a fan for 5 years, and you're in HS or college, so what? If you can bring something valuable to the Forums, whether it's personal opinion, analysis, whatever, as long as it's constructive and you are willing to listen, then bring it. To paint those who disagree as wannabe football managers is disingenuity at its finest. If we really wanted that, would a fan forum really be the place to post? Really?

The best orgs actually try to collect diverse opinions. In fact, the most successful organizations in business, government, sports - they seek off divergent opinions and analyze them. Many often even go to the point of appointing someone in a group where consensus exists to play the role of devil's advocate and take the opposing view - just to make sure there isn't a flaw in their processes. People who stand alone to criticize after labelled in bad organizations as troublemakers - successful organizations view them as the canaries in the coal mine - the sentinels. Now, if all someone does is criticize, then that's probably too far, unless the org is just utterly bad (Rams during the Jeff Fisher-era bad, for example - they're on the right track now, so don't shoot Rams fans lol!). And each time an alarm goes off, it doesn't meant that there's for sure a problem - but great orgs make sure to at least listen and figure out if there's a problem. And if there's a repeated pattern, they pick it up earlier than bad orgs. They also don't tell the people raising concerns to get another job.

But here, on a Forum, if anyone criticizes a draft, god forbid, they should just apply for a real job? Or somehow they live in a basement? Frankly, I'd guess most of us have real jobs, and we're very happy there. Hell, some of the guys here are retired, lol. We just love football enough to post passionately on the topic. NOWHERE should that be vilified, it should be celebrated. It's actually what the Forums are for. Now, there are limits - there's no reason to turn posting personal, and for good reason. This only escalates disagreements into flamefests that derail the convo. They also make the Forum an unwelcome place for those new posters who might want to post with nothing but good intentions (that "what's a rumor" poster being a notable exception, but even then it doesn't do anything to go there).

It doesn't mean criticism shouldn't be argued with, either. No one knows for sure at this stage. But go after the criticism with your own takes, and your own reasons for supporting it. That's what makes for great discussion. AKRNA and I rarely disagree - but you can bet if we do, we're going to talk it out on the points, like taking Bolles when Foster was on the board. I don't agree with BF2010 on Booker (I think there's still hope, first-year rookie mental & physical wall contributing to his terrible vision shown down the stretch), but hey, that's cool, there's legit reasons to be concerned. BroncoBruin and I don't agree on McKenzie with 2 others picked who do ST returns. Lord knows champ11 & I disagreed on Romo for a long time back & forth. But those are all convos that people post points for and against. There's no need for it to become a hater/blind apologist label-fest. We're supposed to be discussing these points, right? In the end, if people still disagree, it's all good. We won't know for 2+ years how this really looks, so until then, have at it either way.

For the record, I really like what Elway did on Round 2 with Walker, and I love the Jake Butt, DeAndre Henderson and Chad Kelly picks. I do think we should have gone after Foster Rd 1, and I dislike getting a 3rd returner a lot, when other guys who could have helped need areas were there. C-Henderson is a great pick if he can become our slot guy, but if he's only a KR/PR and gadget guy, then it's too soon. Langley feels like a reach, but if there's anywhere where DEN succeeds at a crazy rate, it's developing DB's. Still, both Rd 3 picks felt like we reached, because Elway locked in early (more on that in another post/thread). Finally, I absolute love, love, love getting an early round Rd 4 pick for next year when we could not keep 2 extra guys on the roster & PS (the 5th we traded away and Bibbs). There's good, there's bad, and all unknown. On picks alone, I'd give the draft a C+ (passing on elite talents Rd 1, 3rd return guy when options to address other needs were there, and early reach for guys who need a lot of time to develop meant at least 3 missed opportunities for much better value, not just slight), but adding an extra top 110 pick next year was such great added value, and Butt/D-Henderson/Kelly were such great Day 3 picks, for me, I'd say a B-.

That's my take, and no way I or anyone knows if that's right or wrong. But how about we discuss it on the points, as adults? Instead of painting critics of choices as haters (or those who support as blind apologists, not a whole lot better)?

Come on, we are way better than this.

My response to this dissertation is:LOL
Not everyone has time to sit down and Analyze infinitum on our team. Most of us hv jobs and responsibilities that limit extensive contribution. Notwithstanding, kudos to those who hv more time. Just making the point that Sometimes majority speak less.
On my part, When I do hv time on this forum, I hv nothing against strong opinions. That's what this forum is for.
What I hv a problem with is folks who make CATEGORICAL statements of opinion as if they are fact.
If you get up here and categorically state that a draft pick is a bust or has no chance of making the team I immediately discard you as credible dialogue. In my view, such stance is straight up moron.
I am not mincing words. That maybe your opinion but express it as such not as fact. Dont speak as if you are the the all and know all. No one can be certain about draft grades. As the infamous coach of the Colts once said, "you think you know but you just dnt know!"


Last edited by mke1010 on Mon May 01, 2017 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 3886
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My response to this dissertation is:LOL
Not everyone has time to sit down and put in such time in analyzing our team. Most of us hv jobs and responsibilities not that those who hv more time don't. Just making the point that some of us follow part time per pressing jobs. When I do hv time to post, I hv nothing nothing against strong opinions. That's what this forum is for.
What I hv a problem with is folks who make CATEGORICAL statements of opinion as if they are fact.
Sorry if you get up here and categorically state that a draft pick is a bust or has no chance of making the team? Sling weight or contributing in any fashion? You are straight up moron.
I am not mincing words. That maybe your opinion but express it as such, don't speak as if you are the he all and knowledge and certain about your draft grades. As the infamous coach of the Colts once said, you think you know but you just dnt know!


lol. Broncofan is one of the most balanced, rational and non-emotionally driven posters on this site. He does nothing but help drive the conversation and provide actual insight.

You on the other hand are heading to ban land with some totally unnecessary personal attacks.

Peace.
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mke1010


Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 2749
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
My response to this dissertation is:LOL
Not everyone has time to sit down and put in such time in analyzing our team. Most of us hv jobs and responsibilities not that those who hv more time don't. Just making the point that some of us follow part time per pressing jobs. When I do hv time to post, I hv nothing nothing against strong opinions. That's what this forum is for.
What I hv a problem with is folks who make CATEGORICAL statements of opinion as if they are fact.
Sorry if you get up here and categorically state that a draft pick is a bust or has no chance of making the team? Sling weight or contributing in any fashion? You are straight up moron.
I am not mincing words. That maybe your opinion but express it as such, don't speak as if you are the he all and knowledge and certain about your draft grades. As the infamous coach of the Colts once said, you think you know but you just dnt know!


lol. Broncofan is one of the most balanced, rational and non-emotionally driven posters on this site. He does nothing but help drive the conversation and provide actual insight.

You on the other hand are heading to ban land with some totally unnecessary personal attacks.

Peace.

To be banned is predicated on violation of rules. While I applaud your lauding of Broncofan, you're clearly wanting elsewhere. I hv done nothing but state harsh facts and truth. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities but it dsnt violate forum rules. So as much as it may seem you wld like me banned, you'll just hv to hv a cigar or a fruit cake in the interim. Whatever floats your boat. I ain't going no where buddy. Smile


Last edited by mke1010 on Mon May 01, 2017 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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