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Your Draft Opinion:The Front Office is Competent if.........
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dawgdish


Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Posts: 2794
Location: Brooklyn, NY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dawgdish wrote:
1.Take Garrett #1
2. Take BPA at #12
3. Fortify our secondary in the first few rounds
4. Get a developmental QB prospect (unfortunately all the QBs in this class are) without reaching for him
5. Lean heavily on input from scouts in coaches when selecting personnel, and completely tune out Truck Stop Jimmy on the same


Knew I shouldn't have hoped after we checked off box #1 that we are actually a competent F.O. with an actual pair of 2 huevos.
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NudeTayne


Joined: 12 Apr 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dawgdish wrote:
dawgdish wrote:
1.Take Garrett #1
2. Take BPA at #12
3. Fortify our secondary in the first few rounds
4. Get a developmental QB prospect (unfortunately all the QBs in this class are) without reaching for him
5. Lean heavily on input from scouts in coaches when selecting personnel, and completely tune out Truck Stop Jimmy on the same


Knew I shouldn't have hoped after we checked off box #1 that we are actually a competent F.O. with an actual pair of 2 huevos.


Yeah, we just took the bpa at pick #12 at pick #25 instead Very Happy (and got a 2018 1st). Seriously, Njoku is in the same tier as everyone available at #12. Allen is not twitchy & has his health shhtuff, Hooker doesn't fit what our F.O. looks for (injury issues & one year of production, even though he was great), and I prefer Njoku to Howard personally. I would say they exhibited major huevos by staying calm under pressure and letting everyone else waste a pile of picks. Houston may very well not make the playoffs this year as well; their division all improved a good amount in the offseason (except arguably Indy, but they have Luck). I love this.
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VikeManDan


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Off to a very good start from last night. Excited to see what you guys accomplish today. What positions are the Browns faithful looking/hoping for?
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candyman93


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VikeManDan wrote:
Off to a very good start from last night. Excited to see what you guys accomplish today. What positions are the Browns faithful looking/hoping for?


QB
FS
CB

Maybe RB and WR, but it's not important.
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Mind Character


Joined: 23 Dec 2016
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Your Draft Opinion:The Front Office is Competent if..... Reply with quote

Mind Character wrote:
What 5 things have to happen for you to walk away feeling good about the front office and coach decision making dynamic?


I knew our front office was trash When the Browns sheeples cheered and cried tears of joy when we took Johnny Manziel over Bridgewater and Derek Carr, after taking Justin Gilbert at 8.....I shook my head and disgust and ask the fellas to turn the TV off at our draft party because me and my friends knew we blew it. My brother had OBJ as THE franchise guy....he left the room for an hour.

Johnny wasn't going to stay on the field due to off field partying and Gilbert had no willingness to tackle, no football instincts, and did not love the competition/game as was evident reading any pre-draft evaluations and reports from the OKst ppl and trusted regional scouts.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My 5-pt Competence Test: A good draft for me is one in which the decisions made make sense from a football evaluative perspective as well as a character team building perspective.


1. Draft Garrett number 1: We know all the arguments.

2. Don't take players that may make themselves unavailable on the field due to character concerns or recreational drug use. We can't afford to take talented players that can't make it to the field.

3. Dont trade extra picks to trade up from 12 for a QB. If you do trade up, select a Jamal Adams or Malik Hooker.

4. Don't reach for a QB in the first 2 rounds(round 2 guys aren't the guy; won't start; and other immediate starters at positional needs will be available). Select immediate starters at other positions of need while focusing on defense

5. Avoid players that the films says they're bad but hot takes or PFF says they're good. 3 Players: Davis Webb (no poise under pressure, worst On Target Accuracy in the draft, worst accuracy on timing/velocity drive throws not on the boundary outside the numbers---size/height KING), Cordrea Tankersly(PFF noncontextual analytics loves this guy; 10 games say he's trash, tight hipped non instinctive panic when the balls in the air), Eddie Jackson (great leader, stiff hipped, straight line aggressive hitter, 8 games watched how he has no range outside of being a box SS, poor instincts in the pass game), Jadar Johnson (no instincts, horrible angles, just a guy---5 games watched).




Oh....one more thing....[u]Davis Webb
based on any assessment of his play on the field and not his size or A-plus interviews is complete trash[/u]


Post draft assessment----this front office and how they work with coaches on decision making shows that they are highly competent.

1. Draft Garrett number 1: We know all the arguments.
---Check


2. Don't take players that may make themselves unavailable on the field due to character concerns or recreational drug use. We can't afford to take talented players that can't make it to the field.
Fail. Took Branley later so I guess even if he's unavailable it's not that big of a deal. Peppers could be puffin the magic dragon, but the good news is that he didn't do so in college so at least he knows how to pass a drug test, or he couldve drank too much water.

3. Dont trade extra picks to trade up from 12 for a QB. If you do trade up, select a Jamal Adams or Malik Hooker.
---Check

4. Don't reach for a QB in the first 2 rounds(round 2 guys aren't the guy; won't start; and other immediate starters at positional needs will be available). Select immediate starters at other positions of need while focusing on defense
---Check. I never assumed Kizer would fall to the second round so that's not a reach

5. Avoid players that the films says they're bad but hot takes or PFF says they're good. 3 Players: Davis Webb (no poise under pressure, worst On Target Accuracy in the draft, worst accuracy on timing/velocity drive throws not on the boundary outside the numbers---size/height KING), Cordrea Tankersly(PFF noncontextual analytics loves this guy; 10 games say he's trash, tight hipped non instinctive panic when the balls in the air), Eddie Jackson (great leader, stiff hipped, straight line aggressive hitter, 8 games watched how he has no range outside of being a box SS, poor instincts in the pass game), Jadar Johnson (no instincts, horrible angles, just a guy---5 games watched).
---Check....we didn't take Davis Webb or any of the players I thought had really bad film except for maybe Roderick Johnson
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(5/22/17) '18 QB1s: 1. Sam Darnold, 2. Luke Falk, 3. Josh Allen, 4. Josh Rosen, 5. Riley Ferguson, 6. Baker Mayfield / FS1s: 1. Armani Watts, 2. Godwin Igwebuike, 3. Jordan Whitehead / SS1: 1. Derwin James / CB1s: 1.T. McFadden, 2. M. Fitzpatrick
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Iamcanadian


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No draft that does not give us a franchise QB, can ever be labelled a true success. I will hold my judgement on our FO and our owner to see if in the next few years, they can find a franchise QB. If the do, then the owner and the FO is a success, if they don't then, it will continue to be a disaster in Cleveland.
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buno67


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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting a franchise QB is the ultimate success we are looking for but that doesn't make or break every draft class until one is for found. That means the browns should draft a QB with their first pick every year until one is found then...

See I rather the Browns not reach on a QB but get the best talent they can. Build the team up and possibly finish off the today depth chart with a QB. Instead of finding a QB and building around him. Right now they gathering the talented and now just need to get the QB.

I like the idea of not selling out of a QB now because it has allowed the browns to build up talent else where and if the QB is found this year (Kizer) or next year and know they can be brought along slowly because of a solid defense and good rushing attack
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dawgdish


Joined: 20 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
No draft that does not give us a franchise QB, can ever be labelled a true success. I will hold my judgement on our FO and our owner to see if in the next few years, they can find a franchise QB. If the do, then the owner and the FO is a success, if they don't then, it will continue to be a disaster in Cleveland.


This definitely wasn't the draft loaded with sure fire franchise QBs, unfortunately. I think Kizer has as good of a chance as the 3 QBs selected before him, and if anyone says they know which of those 4 guys is definitely the one, they are just making a lucky guess. Through that lens, we did well in that we got 3 top caliber players before we went for the QB.
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Mind Character


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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
No draft that does not give us a franchise QB, can ever be labelled a true success. I will hold my judgement on our FO and our owner to see if in the next few years, they can find a franchise QB. If the do, then the owner and the FO is a success, if they don't then, it will continue to be a disaster in Cleveland.


Competent FO versus successful draft are related but even if we didn't get a franchise QB out of this draft (there may not have been one), we could still assess if the FO is competent based on their decisions throughout the draft.


I think that was evident in the way they maneuvered throughout the draft and got impact players.

AND.....we didn't select Davis Webb...
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(5/22/17) '18 QB1s: 1. Sam Darnold, 2. Luke Falk, 3. Josh Allen, 4. Josh Rosen, 5. Riley Ferguson, 6. Baker Mayfield / FS1s: 1. Armani Watts, 2. Godwin Igwebuike, 3. Jordan Whitehead / SS1: 1. Derwin James / CB1s: 1.T. McFadden, 2. M. Fitzpatrick
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
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Location: Rocky River, OH
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
No draft that does not give us a franchise QB, can ever be labelled a true success. I will hold my judgement on our FO and our owner to see if in the next few years, they can find a franchise QB. If the do, then the owner and the FO is a success, if they don't then, it will continue to be a disaster in Cleveland.


This is inane. Defining a successful draft in terms of filling a position for which there are no definitive "franchise" QBs available when we took one of the crapshoot "franchise" QBs that were available simply is inane.
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Iamcanadian


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
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Location: Wallaceburg, Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
No draft that does not give us a franchise QB, can ever be labelled a true success. I will hold my judgement on our FO and our owner to see if in the next few years, they can find a franchise QB. If the do, then the owner and the FO is a success, if they don't then, it will continue to be a disaster in Cleveland.


This is inane. Defining a successful draft in terms of filling a position for which there are no definitive "franchise" QBs available when we took one of the crapshoot "franchise" QBs that were available simply is inane.


First, I did not say that the FO drafted poorly, I like the top 3 picks quite a bit, but it is not true that there were no QB's worthy of being drafted, obviously 3 of them got picked and if one of them proves to be successful, then our FO failed in its primary responsibility, namely to get that QB on our team.

I also said, I am prepared to wait a couple of more seasons before passing judgement on our FO, if they find a franchise QB in the next 2 drafts, then they will have succeeded where so many have failed before them. It just makes me extremely nervous that they have no followed the normal path for getting one, instead, relying on late 1st round QB's or even worse, on 2nd and 3rd round QB's to solve the problem.

Over the last 3 or 4 years, we have had a shot at 3 QB's who went #2 in the draft and for whatever reason, failed to draft none of them, when stats and percentages clearly show that you have a far higher chance to get one if he is drafted in the top 5. Far higher !!!

Someone earlier said, we should win 6 games next year, guess what, 6 wins takes you out of the QB derby especially as the worst teams in the NFL are usually QB desperate themselves and will not trade back if a true franchise QB is staring themselves in the face. This is how teams get stuck as 7 or 8 win teams, never bad enough to draft a franchise QB and never good enough to win much more. Is this what you want for the Browns, it certainly isn't what I want. I want a franchise QB who can take a team far into the playoffs and possibly win a SB. And to get one, you have to throw caution to the wind and take a top 5 QB every chance you get and pray that one works out, no matter how many failures you have.

Practically, every team had multiple failures at the draft taking QB's, but they just kept plugging away until they struck it rich. Until we start doing the same thing, I just fear the consequences, another 20 years consistently out of the playoffs.
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
bruceb wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
No draft that does not give us a franchise QB, can ever be labelled a true success. I will hold my judgement on our FO and our owner to see if in the next few years, they can find a franchise QB. If the do, then the owner and the FO is a success, if they don't then, it will continue to be a disaster in Cleveland.


This is inane. Defining a successful draft in terms of filling a position for which there are no definitive "franchise" QBs available when we took one of the crapshoot "franchise" QBs that were available simply is inane.


First, I did not say that the FO drafted poorly, I like the top 3 picks quite a bit, but it is not true that there were no QB's worthy of being drafted, obviously 3 of them got picked and if one of them proves to be successful, then our FO failed in its primary responsibility, namely to get that QB on our team.

I also said, I am prepared to wait a couple of more seasons before passing judgement on our FO, if they find a franchise QB in the next 2 drafts, then they will have succeeded where so many have failed before them. It just makes me extremely nervous that they have no followed the normal path for getting one, instead, relying on late 1st round QB's or even worse, on 2nd and 3rd round QB's to solve the problem.

Over the last 3 or 4 years, we have had a shot at 3 QB's who went #2 in the draft and for whatever reason, failed to draft none of them, when stats and percentages clearly show that you have a far higher chance to get one if he is drafted in the top 5. Far higher !!!

Someone earlier said, we should win 6 games next year, guess what, 6 wins takes you out of the QB derby especially as the worst teams in the NFL are usually QB desperate themselves and will not trade back if a true franchise QB is staring themselves in the face. This is how teams get stuck as 7 or 8 win teams, never bad enough to draft a franchise QB and never good enough to win much more. Is this what you want for the Browns, it certainly isn't what I want. I want a franchise QB who can take a team far into the playoffs and possibly win a SB. And to get one, you have to throw caution to the wind and take a top 5 QB every chance you get and pray that one works out, no matter how many failures you have.

Practically, every team had multiple failures at the draft taking QB's, but they just kept plugging away until they struck it rich. Until we start doing the same thing, I just fear the consequences, another 20 years consistently out of the playoffs.


You said a lot of things that do not hold water.

First, "No draft that does not give us a franchise QB, can ever be labelled a true success." This draft was a true success. It was excellent by most accounts.

Second, you said: "obviously 3 (QBs worthy of being drafted) got picked and if one of them proves to be successful, then our FO failed in its primary responsibility, namely to get that QB on our team." Huh?

So, our FO should have reached for one of the QBs that other teams reached for hoping that they would get lucky with the one of the three that they chose, which in this case only could have been Watson?

Shall I go on?
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Iamcanadian


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
bruceb wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
No draft that does not give us a franchise QB, can ever be labelled a true success. I will hold my judgement on our FO and our owner to see if in the next few years, they can find a franchise QB. If the do, then the owner and the FO is a success, if they don't then, it will continue to be a disaster in Cleveland.


This is inane. Defining a successful draft in terms of filling a position for which there are no definitive "franchise" QBs available when we took one of the crapshoot "franchise" QBs that were available simply is inane.


First, I did not say that the FO drafted poorly, I like the top 3 picks quite a bit, but it is not true that there were no QB's worthy of being drafted, obviously 3 of them got picked and if one of them proves to be successful, then our FO failed in its primary responsibility, namely to get that QB on our team.

I also said, I am prepared to wait a couple of more seasons before passing judgement on our FO, if they find a franchise QB in the next 2 drafts, then they will have succeeded where so many have failed before them. It just makes me extremely nervous that they have no followed the normal path for getting one, instead, relying on late 1st round QB's or even worse, on 2nd and 3rd round QB's to solve the problem.

Over the last 3 or 4 years, we have had a shot at 3 QB's who went #2 in the draft and for whatever reason, failed to draft none of them, when stats and percentages clearly show that you have a far higher chance to get one if he is drafted in the top 5. Far higher !!!

Someone earlier said, we should win 6 games next year, guess what, 6 wins takes you out of the QB derby especially as the worst teams in the NFL are usually QB desperate themselves and will not trade back if a true franchise QB is staring themselves in the face. This is how teams get stuck as 7 or 8 win teams, never bad enough to draft a franchise QB and never good enough to win much more. Is this what you want for the Browns, it certainly isn't what I want. I want a franchise QB who can take a team far into the playoffs and possibly win a SB. And to get one, you have to throw caution to the wind and take a top 5 QB every chance you get and pray that one works out, no matter how many failures you have.

Practically, every team had multiple failures at the draft taking QB's, but they just kept plugging away until they struck it rich. Until we start doing the same thing, I just fear the consequences, another 20 years consistently out of the playoffs.


You said a lot of things that do not hold water.

First, "No draft that does not give us a franchise QB, can ever be labelled a true success." This draft was a true success. It was excellent by most accounts.

Quote:

Are we going to win more than 6 games next year, we will be lucky to reach that total. If we do not get a franchise QB in next year's draft, will it be 6 wins or less again??? What is your definition of an excellent draft if it does not turn us into a contender and this draft while solid, still leaves us outside the door looking in. So while I liked the players the FO picked, I am far from satisfied that we have turned the corner and I for one, am not going to be satisfied till I see a franchise QB on our roster.


Second, you said: "obviously 3 (QBs worthy of being drafted) got picked and if one of them proves to be successful, then our FO failed in its primary responsibility, namely to get that QB on our team." Huh? Huh, all you want, drafting QB beyond the top 10 carries such a minute chance of providing a team with a franchise QB, the odds are prohibitive. Can it happen, sure but only about 6% of the time. I do not like those odds and you shouldn't either.

So, our FO should have reached for one of the QBs that other teams reached for hoping that they would get lucky with the one of the three that they chose, which in this case only could have been Watson?

Quote:

Please, read the previous post, I said there were 3 QB's chosen in the last 3 or 4 seasons with the #2 pick overall, the odds of one of them becoming a franchise QB are pretty decent and we passed on them all. Yes, RG111 was a flop, but the jury is still out on Wentz and Trubisky, and if one of them turns out to be a franchise QB, our FO will look pretty ridiculous.




Shall I go on?


Please do, because you are making no sense. Our franchise has become pitiful and we are trying to rebuild it using a method that has never intentionally worked. Washington was willing to pay the price, Philly was willing to pay the price and Chicago was willing to pay the price. Even KC is trying to pay the price. NFL GM's know there is only one sure way to get a franchise QB if you do not have one, unless you are hoping for a miracle, You use high draft picks on them and pray it turns out well. If they flop, you just draft another one when the chance presents itself again. That's the reason QB's go high in the draft practically every year if one even looks like he could be one. I repeat, we are not following this tried and true formula.

How many years has it been since we were competitive as a SB contender?? Are you prepared to wait another 20 years, because we are not the only team looking for a franchise QB?? They are extremely hard to come by. If the FO is hoping for a miracle and that the 1 to 6% chance of getting one either in late round 1 or even further down the draft board, then you had better be prepared to understand the consequences. It took Detroit 50 years to go from Layne to Stafford, yes, it can take that long, and it scares the he-ll out of me that our FO is trying to solve our QB problem with a totally unproven method.
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buno67


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:

Please do, because you are making no sense. Our franchise has become pitiful and we are trying to rebuild it using a method that has never intentionally worked. Washington was willing to pay the price, Philly was willing to pay the price and Chicago was willing to pay the price. Even KC is trying to pay the price. NFL GM's know there is only one sure way to get a franchise QB if you do not have one, unless you are hoping for a miracle, You use high draft picks on them and pray it turns out well. If they flop, you just draft another one when the chance presents itself again. That's the reason QB's go high in the draft practically every year if one even looks like he could be one. I repeat, we are not following this tried and true formula.


What is the pay the price crap? So you have to over pay for QBs in an extremely weak QB class? Would you rather drastically over pay for a QB or draft a QB you have no faith in? Sorry both of those options are wrong. Washington was willing to pay the price to a very good prospect. It was totally worth it. Also the Browns tried trading up for RGIII but Washington over paid. Look at Washington tho, the QB that fell to them later on the draft is now a top 10 QB for them.

There is only one sure way to get a QB, use a high draft pick and pray it turns out well? Its a tried and true Formula? When you have to pray for something to happen I would say that is a crap strategy and isnt really a formula.

Also why should the Browns be killed for not over drafting a QB, when one of the more talented QBs fell to them at 52. What makes Watson, Manhommes, and Trubisky better than Kizer? Pretty sure right when all the QBs started declaring for the Draft. Kizer was the #1 QB then as time passes everyone started to elevate pass him. Why cant he be the "pray" QB the Browns need to have like you say? Also a lot of those QB needy teams l have taken themselves out of the running for QBs next year in a very deep class. You dont see teams giving up a 1st rd QB after a year. So the Browns not reaching for crap help set themselves up for next year. IMO there is a reason the Browns have loaded up the '18 draft with top picks. Ammo to go after a top QB prospect without having to use picks from future draft classes. If you are going to call out the FO, wait until next year, when the fruits of their labors from the '16 and '17 will all pay off potentially. Now if all the praying for the catholic QB pays off, then the Browns are set up to have a crazy draft in '18.


Iamcanadian wrote:

How many years has it been since we were competitive as a SB contender?? Are you prepared to wait another 20 years, because we are not the only team looking for a franchise QB?? They are extremely hard to come by. If the FO is hoping for a miracle and that the 1 to 6% chance of getting one either in late round 1 or even further down the draft board, then you had better be prepared to understand the consequences. It took Detroit 50 years to go from Layne to Stafford, yes, it can take that long, and it scares the he-ll out of me that our FO is trying to solve our QB problem with a totally unproven method.


You act like everyone was against the Browns from ever drafting a QB in the 1st rd. If there was a legit QB in the draft, anything of a sure fire stud, they prolly would of reached for him at #1. This QB class was complete crap. Sorry, I am glad the Browns did pray to polish a turd in to a worthy 1st rd selection. Browns drafted a QB, who is as good as any of the QBs who were drafted in the 1st rd, but got him in the 2nd.


Also when it comes to the NFL and the draft, there is no such thing as a proven method. If there was such a thing, teams would never struggle because the proven method would help them rebuild.

Did you get one of those Bombay Sapphire bottles that were on recall for too much APV? cause it seems like it.
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DizzyDean


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't read the novels, honestly, my attention span just isn't that long. This draft can be a resounding success, even if Kizer "the project" never works out.

There was no obvious franchise QB in this class, and ironically enough, the closest thing to it ended up being Mr. Irrelevant. If Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, all end up being studs, the Kicker ends up being here for a decade, and a couple of the other guys end up being good depth or even decent starters. Then this draft is a blockbuster, even without solving the QB position.
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