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vikingsrule


Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 52626
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A key to fixing the defense is adding better quality depth. The defense consistently has gotten worn down or struggles with injuries. Losing Cole and potentially Floyd hurts.

Don't be content at S and LB. sure, we've got bodies at the position (WLB and SS) but we can do better. Any injury to LB or S will devastate the defense.

CB and DE could also use continued investments.

Add a true UT. Joseph and Stephen shouldn't be asked to play 3T, neither should Jones or Johnson in base.

My strategy would be to just draft defense in the first four rounds this year, except for one OL (RG). RB and WR can wait given what we have.
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Purple Faithful


Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 2839
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
Linval is better than just a typical run-stuffer because of the way he can move, but asking him to turn into a penetrating style of player changes the way he plays the game. The way he plays is the reason that he got paid, and the reason he was brought here.

It's just not something that's likely to happen. Us struggling against the run last year had as much to do with Linval trying to penetrate and do too much because of the Floyd injury as it does the tackle playing next to him. We need to put someone next to him that can take the pressure to be the do everything guy away from him and let him get back to what he does best.
we'll just have to disagree. Problem was the 3 getting blown up. Dallas, in a meaningless game, had 140 rushing yards against us. Zeke had 20 carries for 86. Dak was horrible against us throwing- without a real 3 tech. Forcing dak to throw more, in. A postseason matchup, because there is no running, is a win. Kwill did not penetrate much his last 7 years or so, and was very lazy. Linval can do better, imo.
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JDBrocks


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purple Faithful wrote:
rpmwr19 wrote:
Linval is better than just a typical run-stuffer because of the way he can move, but asking him to turn into a penetrating style of player changes the way he plays the game. The way he plays is the reason that he got paid, and the reason he was brought here.

It's just not something that's likely to happen. Us struggling against the run last year had as much to do with Linval trying to penetrate and do too much because of the Floyd injury as it does the tackle playing next to him. We need to put someone next to him that can take the pressure to be the do everything guy away from him and let him get back to what he does best.
we'll just have to disagree. Problem was the 3 getting blown up. Dallas, in a meaningless game, had 140 rushing yards against us. Zeke had 20 carries for 86. Dak was horrible against us throwing- without a real 3 tech. Forcing dak to throw more, in. A postseason matchup, because there is no running, is a win. Kwill did not penetrate much his last 7 years or so, and was very lazy. Linval can do better, imo.


So why not get a 3 tech instead of taking arguable the most dominate player at his position on the defense last year and making him switch in favor of a 4th-5th round rookie? Just because he can doesn't mean he should.
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rpmwr19


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question isn't if Linval could be better than what we currently have at the 3T position; that's not a high bar to beat although Datone is an unknown in that regard.

I'm questioning the efficacy of moving a highly-paid, established, player to a position within the defense that he doesn't play, doesn't fit the prototype of what Zimmer uses there, and has shown he's not as effective at what he's paid to do (stuff the run) when he tries to do too much and penetrate.

But you're right, we will just have to agree to disagree.
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Purple Faithful


Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 2839
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
A key to fixing the defense is adding better quality depth. The defense consistently has gotten worn down or struggles with injuries. Losing Cole and potentially Floyd hurts.

Don't be content at S and LB. sure, we've got bodies at the position (WLB and SS) but we can do better. Any injury to LB or S will devastate the defense.

CB and DE could also use continued investments.

Add a true UT. Joseph and Stephen shouldn't be asked to play 3T, neither should Jones or Johnson in base.

My strategy would be to just draft defense in the first four rounds this year, except for one OL (RG). RB and WR can wait given what we have.
interesting take. At 48, a great safety could be there. Dont see a 3, and i am positive we will take a wolb. Stevie is a later pick, guys.
.
I do not see the mandatory reason to take a guard, i think either easton, hill, or sirles will play fine.
.
With the way the vikings are built, we do not need a penetrating 3. Just do not see it as required. Forcing passing downs, then rotating in is just fine. The double a gap blitz look isnt needed if you have aaron donald so much, you know? We just need the nose and the 3 to collapse the pocket - if the qb cant step up, and if the oline cant disengage from out dt's, then de's and lb's are going to deliver huge pressure.
.
Watch the senior bowl practice ol/dl drills. Watch stevie. See that he looks unblocked as the center/guards are launched back. That makes it hard to throw, step up, etc. Center, while bent over backwards, cant really pick up a lb either.
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disaacs


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IOW, as far as rpm, whose opinion I agree with here, you don't weaken one position in attempt to fix the other...then, you're far more likely to weaken both.

It's the equivalent of moving Mauer to 1st base to try to strengthen the position after Morneau left...now, both 1B and C both suck.
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Purple Faithful


Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JDBrocks wrote:
Purple Faithful wrote:
rpmwr19 wrote:
Linval is better than just a typical run-stuffer because of the way he can move, but asking him to turn into a penetrating style of player changes the way he plays the game. The way he plays is the reason that he got paid, and the reason he was brought here.

It's just not something that's likely to happen. Us struggling against the run last year had as much to do with Linval trying to penetrate and do too much because of the Floyd injury as it does the tackle playing next to him. We need to put someone next to him that can take the pressure to be the do everything guy away from him and let him get back to what he does best.
we'll just have to disagree. Problem was the 3 getting blown up. Dallas, in a meaningless game, had 140 rushing yards against us. Zeke had 20 carries for 86. Dak was horrible against us throwing- without a real 3 tech. Forcing dak to throw more, in. A postseason matchup, because there is no running, is a win. Kwill did not penetrate much his last 7 years or so, and was very lazy. Linval can do better, imo.


So why not get a 3 tech instead of taking arguable the most dominate player at his position on the defense last year and making him switch in favor of a 4th-5th round rookie? Just because he can doesn't mean he should.
there isnt a 3 tech, imo, worth taking at 48 in lieu of what else would help the purple. I do not think the vikings need linval to play the 3 differently than he plays the 1. Certainly, the vikes would not be required to stick with it if it did not work. See, there is no one to draft as a 3 that helps the vikings is my opinion. The tulane guy? Wow, he is bad, imo. So, outside of the msu guy magically falling while potential rapists/women beaters are all selected before him, what is the answer? If no 3 is at 48 or can be traded up, what is the best option? Smart can't play. Maybe he can develop, but he cant improve us now. Who can? Cox and donalds go first half of rd 1 for a reason.
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Purple Faithful


Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
The question isn't if Linval could be better than what we currently have at the 3T position; that's not a high bar to beat although Datone is an unknown in that regard.

I'm questioning the efficacy of moving a highly-paid, established, player to a position within the defense that he doesn't play, doesn't fit the prototype of what Zimmer uses there, and has shown he's not as effective at what he's paid to do (stuff the run) when he tries to do too much and penetrate.

But you're right, we will just have to agree to disagree.
if the vikings find the best player at 48 is dawkins or samuel, and they select that, how can the 3 tech situation be improved? That is what i have written. A 5th round pick who appears to check a great many boxes for the vikings is not a huge investment to make. If linval cant play the 3, certainly a 5th could just enter a rotation, and maybe we could trade for sheldon richardson, if zim doesnt mind the headache. Experiments in camp maybe are not horrible. Looking for creative solutions is also maybe not horrible.
.
With the way the vikings are built, was the pass rush horrible last year without Floyd? No, right? Vikings have a great pass rush, and a great back end, and great cover linebackers. I think it would be great to force the pass more often.
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Heimdallr


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moving Linval out of position just because you draft someone who is graded as a 5th-7th round guy makes no sense at all. I get that you like this guy, and adding a NT to backup Linval might be a good idea, but you are acting like this guy is an instant high-end starter. If that is true why is he not a 1st round prospect?

There are lots of guys in the 2nd-4th round range to look at:

Chris Wormley - Michigan
Caleb Brantley - Florida
Dalvin Tomlinson - Alabama
Davon Godchaux - LSU
Larry Ogunjobi - Charlotte
Jaleel Johnson - Iowa
Montravius Adams - Auburn
Carlos Watkins Clemson
Eddie Vanderdoes - UCLA
Elijah Qualls - Washington
Nazair Jones - North Carolina
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Klomp


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purple Faithful wrote:
Certainly, the vikes would not be required to stick with it if it did not work.

If you're asking Joseph to lose 20-30 pounds, he'd absolutely have to stick with it.

Making a move like this would be a switch similar to how the Giants used him. He wasn't as good then as he is now.

Certain players have advantages because they're at a certain position. Part of the reason TEs have advantages is because they're lined up at a position that's a better fit and gives them better matchups.

Kyle Rudolph wouldn't benefit from a move from TE to WR, but that's essentially the type of move you're suggesting here.
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JDBrocks


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wormley would be my pick to play at the 3t. great explosion numbers for a DT, above average height and arm length. Numbers-wise, he compares pretty favorably to Leonard Williams. I'd rather take that risk than move Linval.
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Purple Faithful


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
IOW, as far as rpm, whose opinion I agree with here, you don't weaken one position in attempt to fix the other...then, you're far more likely to weaken both.

It's the equivalent of moving Mauer to 1st base to try to strengthen the position after Morneau left...now, both 1B and C both suck.
sure, but the dt on the left isnt that different from the dt on the right. We do not need a penetrating 3. On 3rd and long, tom johnson can come in. I see your point, and if donald was available, i would be pounding the table for him. Who loves 3's more than me?
.
The vikes are not built to need an elite 3, they went barr (the reggie white v Lawrence Tayor question zim answered wrong Wink ). Vikes get the rush from hunter, Griffin, barr, smith. Linval will still know how to tackle, and he will still be in throwing lanes.
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Purple Faithful


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klomp wrote:
Purple Faithful wrote:
Certainly, the vikes would not be required to stick with it if it did not work.

If you're asking Joseph to lose 20-30 pounds, he'd absolutely have to stick with it.

Making a move like this would be a switch similar to how the Giants used him. He wasn't as good then as he is now.

Certain players have advantages because they're at a certain position. Part of the reason TEs have advantages is because they're lined up at a position that's a better fit and gives them better matchups.

Kyle Rudolph wouldn't benefit from a move from TE to WR, but that's essentially the type of move you're suggesting here.
oh no, maybe 10lbs, and joseph looked pretty dang good for ny, imo.
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Purple Faithful


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JDBrocks wrote:
Wormley would be my pick to play at the 3t. great explosion numbers for a DT, above average height and arm length. Numbers-wise, he compares pretty favorably to Leonard Williams. I'd rather take that risk than move Linval.
why do you have him falling? Especially with the brantley questions?
.
If the vikes get a 3 with the first pick, fine! Love it. I just doubt the vikings do that. Then, my scenario may be worth a look-see.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is a 4th-5th round NT a better solution than a 4th-5th round UT? Yeah, I like Stevie, but he's as much a work in progress as a UT would be in the same range.
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