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Purple Faithful


Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:57 am    Post subject: How to fix the defense Reply with quote

When Floyd went down, as usual, there was a chain reaction. Injuries mounted- pass rush specialist dt's, safeties in run support collisions, linebackers hurt and ineffective. The pain from ineffective 3 tech play cascaded and ruined a 5-0 start.
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It is difficult to find a Randle or Donald, and with how close the Vikings are, it may hurt to keep trying. The Vikings have, on the roster, a guy who resembles kevin williams. At least the kwill after a few years of pounding. I speak of Linval Joseph, of course. The williams wall redux would dramatically help this defense - allowing Barr to recapture magic, keeping harrison healthier, and forcing teams to pass. Even running outside the box would be ineffective, for the most part, since we'd cheat that way. Even if all linval does is collapse the pocket, with the new NT, it would be enough as it would help Hunter and Everson.
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So, is there a Pat Williams? Yep. And we can get him. Stevie Tu'ikolovatu fixes everything that ails the Vikings on defense. Look for a 3 tech later, beat the cowboys in the post season this year.
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Rose Bowl MVP Stevie is the only way i feel comfortable we can beat a team like dallas in the post season, and, we should have a freed up barr back on track, and a healthy #22.
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Heimdallr


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who would play both DT spots in passing situations?
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rpmwr19


Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've brought this up a few times PF... Linval Joseph is not a 3T defensive tackle... you don't pair him with another run stuffer. Shamar Stephen is already a rotational, run stuffing, 3T and we saw how well pairing him with Linval went.

We NEED an impact interior disruptive force in the mold of Aaron Donald, Geno Atkins, Fletcher Cox. I'm a big fan of Stevie, but he would be a late round backup to Linval Joseph.
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CriminalMind


Joined: 25 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
You've brought this up a few times PF... Linval Joseph is not a 3T defensive tackle... you don't pair him with another run stuffer. Shamar Stephen is already a rotational, run stuffing, 3T and we saw how well pairing him with Linval went.

We NEED an impact interior disruptive force in the mold of Aaron Donald, Geno Atkins, Fletcher Cox. I'm a big fan of Stevie, but he would be a late round backup to Linval Joseph.


I could see a mini move for a DT
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Dolmonite26


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CriminalMind wrote:
rpmwr19 wrote:
You've brought this up a few times PF... Linval Joseph is not a 3T defensive tackle... you don't pair him with another run stuffer. Shamar Stephen is already a rotational, run stuffing, 3T and we saw how well pairing him with Linval went.

We NEED an impact interior disruptive force in the mold of Aaron Donald, Geno Atkins, Fletcher Cox. I'm a big fan of Stevie, but he would be a late round backup to Linval Joseph.


I could see a mini move for a DT


As in a small trade up? Only one that would make sense is for McDowell, and that would probably be too costly. After him there's no one worth trading up for, really poor DT class unfortunately.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The title is misleading, because the defense doesn't need to be fixed...it needs to be fine-tuned.

And yes, they do need additional help at the DT position, but I agree with rpm...the comparison of Linval Joseph to Kevin Williams is a terrible comparison.. Linval is far closer to Pat Williams than Kevin. They need a penetrator like Kevin, rather than a clogger (like Pat) that they have in Linval. Linval's strengths are in tying up offensive lineman to free up the outside guys and get penetration on occasion. They don't need another one of those.
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CriminalMind


Joined: 25 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dolmonite26 wrote:
CriminalMind wrote:
rpmwr19 wrote:
You've brought this up a few times PF... Linval Joseph is not a 3T defensive tackle... you don't pair him with another run stuffer. Shamar Stephen is already a rotational, run stuffing, 3T and we saw how well pairing him with Linval went.

We NEED an impact interior disruptive force in the mold of Aaron Donald, Geno Atkins, Fletcher Cox. I'm a big fan of Stevie, but he would be a late round backup to Linval Joseph.


I could see a mini move for a DT


As in a small trade up? Only one that would make sense is for McDowell, and that would probably be too costly. After him there's no one worth trading up for, really poor DT class unfortunately.


yes, typo... a mini move up for DT .. like Chris Wormley / McDowell
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Purple Faithful


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
You've brought this up a few times PF... Linval Joseph is not a 3T defensive tackle... you don't pair him with another run stuffer. Shamar Stephen is already a rotational, run stuffing, 3T and we saw how well pairing him with Linval went.

We NEED an impact interior disruptive force in the mold of Aaron Donald, Geno Atkins, Fletcher Cox. I'm a big fan of Stevie, but he would be a late round backup to Linval Joseph.
well, we do not pick round 1, and the vikings did not select cox or donald-players i pounded on keyboards here for the vikings to select.
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We can get stevie late, we still would have the rotational pass rush dt's, and linval can have been losing a few pounds. Stevie is an excellent player, and stephen was terrible last year. Teams had no trouble running on the vikes. Stevie is, what, a 4th or 5th round pick? You could still sekect one of the prayer 3 techs, if desired, but there is no donald available at 48. Maybe trade a 5th or 6th for sheldon richardson,
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, because there may not be a 3T we can select with our pick, we are going to move one of our highest paid defensive players to a position he's less suited to play, make him lose weight, and do this because we selected a 4th or 5th round nose tackle?

Think
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Purple Faithful


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heimdallr wrote:
Who would play both DT spots in passing situations?
jones, robison, and johnson. Woukd have 5 to rotate around.
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Purple Faithful


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
So, because there may not be a 3T we can select with our pick, we are going to move one of our highest paid defensive players to a position he's less suited to play, make him lose weight, and do this because we selected a 4th or 5th round nose tackle?

Think
yeah, you need 2 defensive tackles and the vikings can't keep the 3 techs we have healthy, like tom johnson, because they are rotational pass rush players. Look at kwill's sack totals later years. Wasn't a whole lot of penetrating. When Linval's job is to penetrate, i think he will be fine. A very talented player. We just need the guards collapsed back on passes, imo.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Linval tries to penetrate he has to turn his shoulders because he's so broad, when he turns his shoulders he gets washed out.

Sack totals are not an indication of ability to penetrate for an interior player (even though he was a six sack a year type player during the majority of his prime). QB pressures, TFL's in the run game, batted passes are all ways interior disruption and that's where Kevin Williams lived.
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Purple Faithful


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kwill 6'5" 311 lbs, a typical year, 5 sacks. At the 3
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Linval Joseph 6'4" 329 lbs, last year, 4 sacks. At the nose.
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Linval loses 10 lbs, is supposed to penetrate instead of stack up and you don't think he can match a typical kwill year? Outside of yr 1 and 2, kwill only had 1 year of 8 sacks. 1! 1! 1!
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Linval will be unlikely to get hurt, he isn't going to be driven back, he will beat his cowboy blocker up as well. No reason not to try him. There is no aaron donald this year, the vikes did not listen to me. There is no fletcher cox this year, the vikings did not listen to me Wink it is a weak dt class, and stevie can flat out ball, he is just going to be 26, and he is only 6'1". Not a 3,.... vikes can get him cheap.
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Only other option, to me, is to trade for sheldon richardson-probably only a rental. Stevie would be much cheaper. Was i wrong when i said cox could play and the vikes were fools for selecting kalil? Was i wrong when i said the vikes were fools for taking barr over donald? Anyway, think about it for a minute or 3.
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Purple Faithful


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
When Linval tries to penetrate he has to turn his shoulders because he's so broad, when he turns his shoulders he gets washed out.

Sack totals are not an indication of ability to penetrate for an interior player (even though he was a six sack a year type player during the majority of his prime). QB pressures, TFL's in the run game, batted passes are all ways interior disruption and that's where Kevin Williams lived.
you sell linval short, imo. Besides, collapsing the pocket gets hunter/Griffin home.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linval is better than just a typical run-stuffer because of the way he can move, but asking him to turn into a penetrating style of player changes the way he plays the game. The way he plays is the reason that he got paid, and the reason he was brought here.

It's just not something that's likely to happen. Us struggling against the run last year had as much to do with Linval trying to penetrate and do too much because of the Floyd injury as it does the tackle playing next to him. We need to put someone next to him that can take the pressure to be the do everything guy away from him and let him get back to what he does best.
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