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What's the Deal with the D-Line?
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 49008
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
This man. A quality DE makes any CB or S look better. A great secondary can help but its not as impactful as a stud pass rusher. The most effective way to stop the pass is to disrupt the passer.


But I mean, thats kinda what we have been saying all along.. Myles Garrett wont be there at pick 28... so we arent getting a "stud pass rusher"

We have 4 DEs that can start for us and at least play at a serviceable level. There are 2 DE spots.

We have 3 good DBs. There are 5 starting DB slots (nickle was played over 50% of snaps last year)

So, DE has 200% of the needed starters - even if they arent great.
DB we have 60% of the needed starters - and some still arent great.
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DaBoys


Joined: 18 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Quote:
Scandrick/Brown/Carroll > Demarcus Lawrence/Irving/ Mayowa

Hell the 3 CBs nearly have the same number of career sacks as the DE's lol.

Scandrick has more sacks than any of them.




And really? Scandrick has more playing years than those guys combined, as well.


Yes... really. He's a freakin corner back, Matts. A good DE could beat his 11.5 career sacks in 1 season. DLaw, Mayowa, and Irving have 9 seasons combined. I'm not being unfair to the pass rushers.

PS
Scan has only played 8 seasons, so that's not true.

I think ppl forget that Mayowa will be 26 going into his 5th season on his 3rd NFL team. He isn't our developing rookie.
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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
But I mean, thats kinda what we have been saying all along.. Myles Garrett wont be there at pick 28... so we arent getting a "stud pass rusher"
Ok? Lattimore or Adams won't be there either. I don't see your point.

Matts4313 wrote:
We have 4 DEs that can start for us and at least play at a serviceable level. There are 2 DE spots.
Obviously you're entitled to your own opinion, but I don't really think you have any starting caliber DEs on the roster at the moment. Definitely not one that can consistently apply pressure on the QB.

Matts4313 wrote:
We have 3 good DBs. There are 5 starting DB slots (nickle was played over 50% of snaps last year)
And you only have one draft pick? Take a DB in round 2, 3 whatever. Premium picks should be spent on premium positions IMO.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't draft just to fill out your roster. Not in the 1st round anyway. btw we have the bodies at safety. We just don't have the talent. Same with DE. CB we don't have the numbers, but I don't hate Scan, Brown, and Carroll as the starters. Just need depth. That's not what the 1st round is for though.
Heath has flashed just as much as Irving. Irving's flashes were more noticeable though because he plays a more....... premium position. Which brings us back to DE.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
You don't draft just to fill out your roster. Not in the 1st round anyway. btw we have the bodies at safety. We just don't have the talent. Same with DE. CB we don't have the numbers, but I don't hate Scan, Brown, and Carroll as the starters. Just need depth. That's not what the 1st round is for though.
Heath has flashed just as much as Irving. Irving's flashes were more noticeable though because he plays a more....... premium position. Which brings us back to DE.


You MKnight are both completely ignoring my entire argument and turning it into something its not.

If its the 4th best DE and the 4th best DB and they both have starting potential - take the DE.

But if its (highly likely) the 6th best DE, that has a 2nd round grade.
VS
The 3rd best DB that has a 1st round grade.

The choice is easy. Looking at the mocks the only guys falling to us at DE are not going to be 'stud pass rushers'. But there looks to be a high likelihood that a quality starting DB will be there.

So if you are asking me rather I would prefer a LCB who looks to fit the bill for the next 5 years... or a rotational DE that 'MIGHT' be better than DLaw... I know where I am going.
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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
You don't draft just to fill out your roster. Not in the 1st round anyway. btw we have the bodies at safety. We just don't have the talent. Same with DE. CB we don't have the numbers, but I don't hate Scan, Brown, and Carroll as the starters. Just need depth. That's not what the 1st round is for though.
Heath has flashed just as much as Irving. Irving's flashes were more noticeable though because he plays a more....... premium position. Which brings us back to DE.


You MKnight are both completely ignoring my entire argument and turning it into something its not.

If its the 4th best DE and the 4th best DB and they both have starting potential - take the DE.

But if its (highly likely) the 6th best DE, that has a 2nd round grade.
VS
The 3rd best DB that has a 1st round grade.

The choice is easy. Looking at the mocks the only guys falling to us at DE are not going to be 'stud pass rushers'. But there looks to be a high likelihood that a quality starting DB will be there.

So if you are asking me rather I would prefer a LCB who looks to fit the bill for the next 5 years... or a rotational DE that 'MIGHT' be better than DLaw... I know where I am going.
I expect Garrett, Thomas, Allen, Barnett, Watt, Harris, and maybe Willis will be off the board by 28. Maybe Taco Charlton too.

Adams and Hooker will definitely be gone. Melifonwu could be gone too.

I think Lattimore, Adoree Jackson and Chidobe Awuzie have a good shot of being gone. Humphrey could be gone too.

So you're probably looking at something like Kevin King, Tre'Davious White, or maybe Humphrey at CB.

Peppers or maybe Melifonwu at S.

Or Malik McDowell, Takkarist McKinley, Tyus Bowser, or Tim Williams. Maybe Charlton or Willis drop.

Personally I'd take McKinley.
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matt79511


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone rational would hate a 1st round pick at DE because Dallas' DL depth is superior to their DB depth. By all means, if we think Watt or Bowser or whoever could be our best DE by Week 1 or midseason or December/January or 2018 or at any point in the duration of the life of his rookie contract- then go for it. But with the way our defense is deployed, it's very likely that our highest drafted DB will play more snaps than our highest drafted DL. Happened two years ago with Jones and Gregory (wasn't even close: 870-245), and it happened last year with starting DT Maliek Collins being outsnapped by "backup CB" Anthony Brown, 717-656. That's all I'm stating. So the "need for an immediate starter" element is bogus. Unless we land Barnett, I think the odds of our rookie DE starting Week 1 are infinitesimal, but that shouldn't and likely won't dissuade the FO from taking one.

And fwiw, Irving is scheduled to be an RFA next spring, so his payday isn't coming until '19. If he remains flashy but inconsistent, I could see him agreeing to a team-friendly extension, but if his second halves against Green Bay and Tampa become more of a regular thing, then it's hard to see Dallas being able to afford him long-term.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000802870/article/2017-mike-mayock-mock-draft-two-qbmotivated-trades

7 DEs gone (counting Watt)
3 CBs
2 S

Again, just say'n
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matt79511


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
You don't draft just to fill out your roster. Not in the 1st round anyway. btw we have the bodies at safety. We just don't have the talent. Same with DE. CB we don't have the numbers, but I don't hate Scan, Brown, and Carroll as the starters. Just need depth. That's not what the 1st round is for though.
Heath has flashed just as much as Irving. Irving's flashes were more noticeable though because he plays a more....... premium position. Which brings us back to DE.


You MKnight are both completely ignoring my entire argument and turning it into something its not.

If its the 4th best DE and the 4th best DB and they both have starting potential - take the DE.

But if its (highly likely) the 6th best DE, that has a 2nd round grade.
VS
The 3rd best DB that has a 1st round grade.

The choice is easy. Looking at the mocks the only guys falling to us at DE are not going to be 'stud pass rushers'. But there looks to be a high likelihood that a quality starting DB will be there.

So if you are asking me rather I would prefer a LCB who looks to fit the bill for the next 5 years... or a rotational DE that 'MIGHT' be better than DLaw... I know where I am going.
I expect Garrett, Thomas, Allen, Barnett, Watt, Harris, and maybe Willis will be off the board by 28. Maybe Taco Charlton too.

Adams and Hooker will definitely be gone. Melifonwu could be gone too.

I think Lattimore, Adoree Jackson and Chidobe Awuzie have a good shot of being gone. Humphrey could be gone too.

So you're probably looking at something like Kevin King, Tre'Davious White, or maybe Humphrey at CB.

Peppers or maybe Melifonwu at S.

Or Malik McDowell, Takkarist McKinley, Tyus Bowser, or Tim Williams. Maybe Charlton or Willis drop.

Personally I'd take McKinley.


I am interested in revisiting this in a day or 2. Anyone who thinks they know the quantity of DEs and DBs that go in the first after Garrett, Lattimore, Adams, and Hooker, and the order in which they go, is full of it, imo
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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

matt79511 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
You don't draft just to fill out your roster. Not in the 1st round anyway. btw we have the bodies at safety. We just don't have the talent. Same with DE. CB we don't have the numbers, but I don't hate Scan, Brown, and Carroll as the starters. Just need depth. That's not what the 1st round is for though.
Heath has flashed just as much as Irving. Irving's flashes were more noticeable though because he plays a more....... premium position. Which brings us back to DE.


You MKnight are both completely ignoring my entire argument and turning it into something its not.

If its the 4th best DE and the 4th best DB and they both have starting potential - take the DE.

But if its (highly likely) the 6th best DE, that has a 2nd round grade.
VS
The 3rd best DB that has a 1st round grade.

The choice is easy. Looking at the mocks the only guys falling to us at DE are not going to be 'stud pass rushers'. But there looks to be a high likelihood that a quality starting DB will be there.

So if you are asking me rather I would prefer a LCB who looks to fit the bill for the next 5 years... or a rotational DE that 'MIGHT' be better than DLaw... I know where I am going.
I expect Garrett, Thomas, Allen, Barnett, Watt, Harris, and maybe Willis will be off the board by 28. Maybe Taco Charlton too.

Adams and Hooker will definitely be gone. Melifonwu could be gone too.

I think Lattimore, Adoree Jackson and Chidobe Awuzie have a good shot of being gone. Humphrey could be gone too.

So you're probably looking at something like Kevin King, Tre'Davious White, or maybe Humphrey at CB.

Peppers or maybe Melifonwu at S.

Or Malik McDowell, Takkarist McKinley, Tyus Bowser, or Tim Williams. Maybe Charlton or Willis drop.

Personally I'd take McKinley.


I am interested in revisiting this in a day or 2. Anyone who thinks they know the quantity of DEs and DBs that go in the first after Garrett, Lattimore, Adams, and Hooker, and the order in which they go, is full of it, imo
I was just throwing it out there as a projection. I ain't quoting the bible relax.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000802870/article/2017-mike-mayock-mock-draft-two-qbmotivated-trades

7 DEs gone (counting Watt)
3 CBs
2 S

Again, just say'n
You would be happy with Tre'Davious White in the first round?
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000802870/article/2017-mike-mayock-mock-draft-two-qbmotivated-trades

7 DEs gone (counting Watt)
3 CBs
2 S

Again, just say'n
You would be happy with Tre'Davious White in the first round?


Ill probably be happy with whoever the Cowboys pick (within reason) as we have been excellent drafters lately. That said he is projected by the internet scouts to be drafted:

CBS - RD1-2
NFL - RD 1-2
Walter - Mid Rd1 to early 2
DraftCD - RD1

Seems about where the 'experts' project him. I would probably lean Obi personally.
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atran35


Joined: 22 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Base on the last several drafts. Whomever we pick in the 1st round will be a starter. The 2nd round? Will prob. be injury prone or suspended.
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WizardHawk


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the number of snap lost in FA at DB (iirc Sturm said 2700), the play of Irving and Mayowa down the stretch, plus the number of bodies (including a returning Tapper) probably point to DB in RD 1 for Dallas.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if we had a stud DE he would play more snaps. DWare in his prime wouldn't be rotated out in this scheme as much as Mayowa is. The best DE on our team is Randy Gregory. Week 17 proved that. It's to bad.
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