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What's the Deal with the D-Line?
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the Deal with the D-Line? Reply with quote

matt79511 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
matt79511 wrote:
No Dallas fan in this thread is making the argument that their first rounder this year has to "fill a day 1 starter need." That's just short-sighted.
Did you read the OP? His argument is that Dallas should consider a position that can start day 1 instead of a pass rusher that might not start this year. I was responding to that.

matt79511 wrote:
Any DB Dallas drafts at 28 or 60 probably starts out as the dime-back behind Scandrick, Brown, Carroll, Jones, and Heath, as Jones himself did when we were in this spot 2 years ago, then moves his way into a starting role as injuries happen and/or the natural order of progression occurs.
I posted this same thing. I said any defensive back Dallas drafts likely doesn't start Day 1. Again, I was responding to the OP who's argument is that a pass rusher shouldn't be selected because he won't start day 1.

matt79511 wrote:
Lawrence, Irving, and Mayowa are grown-@ss men who've spent multiple years in the league growing out their bodies and learning how to play against NFL schemes. Dismiss their abilities as you wish, but any DE Dallas were to take at 28 is a flawed prospect, and, comparably, a child. It's still their best chance at filling the void of a 10-sack a year edge rusher, but that sort of player is every bit as rare as a franchise quarterback these days, and would take at least as much time to fill out his frame and hone his abilities as any other positions. Marinelli rarely starts rookies on the DL- Maliek Collins was a huge anomaly in this regard.
This is where you and the OP disagree with me. I don't think Dallas' DEs are anything special, and there are several DEs in the first you could select that I think would start for Dallas Day 1. Malik McDowell, TJ Watt, Takkarist McKinley, Charles Harris, & Tyus Bowser could all be on the board for Dallas and are all more talented than any DE they have IMO.


You're right, I did kind of overlook/skim what the OP was saying, since the Dallas defensive line/pass rush has basically been talked to death and I felt like I've gotten the gist of it. fm30 just summed it up pretty well. I just think (know for a fact, actually) that the starter distinction matters comparably very little to total snaps played, and Dallas has a whole lot more snaps to replace from last year's secondary than they do from last year's defensive line. Say what you will of the Dallas DEs, but Nolan Carroll and Jeff Heath as every down starters is every bit as much of a concern if not infinitely more so.



An injury to the secondary would be absolutely devastating. An injury to a DL would be put us where we normally are anyways.
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JShank


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the responses. Let me clear a few things up. . . When I say "starter" i mean a starter's amount of snaps (sometimes they just keep the title "Starter" from rookies).

Again, it is my contention that the DL guy we can pick at 28 WILL NOT BEAT OUT DLAW and/or IRVING. (I made a point to not mention Barnett LOL, he is an enigma). Is there a chance, of course, anything is possible. If you put Irving's tape from last year and his measurables against this year's draft class, he would be picked over all but Garrett.

Irving has better odds of becoming that dude ppl fear and have to account for than anyone at 28.

Kevin King, for example, would finish the 2017 year with "starter" snaps if we drafted him at 28. . . So would a safety, so would an O=Lineman, so would a SLB with the ability to rush the passer (Hasaan Reddick. . .). Only 3 WRs would be capable of starting. . .

Lastly, I will repeat that I believe the pass-rusher available at 28 will be very similar to the prospect available at 60.

For the future: I know we have invested a lot in the O-line, but what I have learned recently about the draft is it is more important to get a guy that can start, produce, and offer certainty - at least until their rookie contract is up - than a guy that may never pan out to be more than a back-up.

Of course, if you don't think Ramcyck*, Lamp, Bolles would start, than it is an easy decision to pass on them. But if you believe he will start, but are just hoping a - say dlineman - will start, one day, then you pick the sure thing. This is especially important on day one of the draft. Also, this is only really possible because of the low rookie contracts.

After this year, we will know about DLaw, Tapper, Irving, and Gregory. . . right now the jury is still out.
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cowboyfanin2890


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We made it to the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years and both years a team with a decent o-line stuffed our rush and beat us by the pass. If we want to go any further than we have already the Cowboys will need a pass rusher. 3 seconds to pass gives the secondary time to keep up, 5 seconds to pass and regardless of how good your coverage is someone will get open.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What has DLaw shown you that you are so confident in his skills, that no one we draft will be better?

He was picked 34th overall not 4th. He has 9 career sacks not 90. He was suspended last year and dismal when he did play. He was getting like 7-15 snaps a game down the stretch. He had 1 sack last year not 11. If you want to sweep his worst professional career season under the rug because his back surgery then get ready to sweep another one up because he just had another.

David Irving was great on about 10 snaps last year. That's it. He was invisible beyond that. He recorded a single tackle in our playoff loss, and was a complete non factor. He should honestly be a 3T. Sure he is young, but he doesn't stop you from drafting anything.

Mayowa is a promising pass rush specialist that, at 245 lbs, has no business on the field on 1st/2nd down.

Tapper is a complete unkown but only has an early fourth round pedigree. Doesn't stop you from drafting a 1st rounder.

Domontre Moore is a head case that will likely be on yet another team next year regardless of his upcoming production.

Randy Gregory is so high that he can only stay home and fold the dishes.

Am I missing something? The reasons we could use 1st round talent on the DL are sound.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JShank wrote:
If you put Irving's tape from last year and his measurables against this year's draft class, he would be picked over all but Garrett.


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JShank


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
What has DLaw shown you that you are so confident in his skills, that no one we draft will be better?

He was picked 34th overall not 4th. He has 9 career sacks not 90. He was suspended last year and dismal when he did play. He was getting like 7-15 snaps a game down the stretch. He had 1 sack last year not 11. If you want to sweep his worst professional career season under the rug because his back surgery then get ready to sweep another one up because he just had another.

David Irving was great on about 10 snaps last year. That's it. He was invisible beyond that. He recorded a single tackle in our playoff loss, and was a complete non factor. He should honestly be a 3T. Sure he is young, but he doesn't stop you from drafting anything.

Mayowa is a promising pass rush specialist that, at 245 lbs, has no business on the field on 1st/2nd down.

Tapper is a complete unkown but only has an early fourth round pedigree. Doesn't stop you from drafting a 1st rounder.

Domontre Moore is a head case that will likely be on yet another team next year regardless of his upcoming production.

Randy Gregory is so high that he can only stay home and fold the dishes.

Am I missing something? The reasons we could use 1st round talent on the DL are sound.


TBH I am not a big fan of D Law. I just realize that there is a commitment to have him play. This is his prove it year, he will get the benefit of the doubt at the start of the season.

Also, I am not saying under no circumstances draft a pass-rusher at 28, just that the circumstances to make that a good choice are unlikely.

I am not completely sold on our pass rushers yet, either. It is just that right now they are young, up-trending, and in a position to get their opportunities. We have guys coming back healthy, and guys with another year under their belt. . .

I don't think it is wise to neglect a better player at a position of similar or greater need, in order to chase a pass-rusher that will likely just compete for rotational snaps, and would likely be there at 60 anyway.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David Irving had 17 tackles and 4 sacks last year. The bulk of those coming in two games.

I get that we are excited about his potential but, c'mon. A certain degree of honesty is needed in his evaluations. If we are being honest we are talking about a guy who will be 24 by the start of what will be his 3rd year. He has a 1 year contract with a team that won't be able to afford him in the off season. He has 30 career tackles and 4.5 career sacks. He is a former UDFA, that is playing out of position in Dallas because we have no real DE's.
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JShank


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
JShank wrote:
If you put Irving's tape from last year and his measurables against this year's draft class, he would be picked over all but Garrett.



You can disagree with me, but it is not a meme-deserving crazy claim. Analysts have said the similar things. . . Irving goes number 12 overall in the link below.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000799656/article/2015-nfl-draft-doover-david-johnson-goes-before-todd-gurley
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JShank


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
David Irving had 17 tackles and 4 sacks last year. The bulk of those coming in two games.

I get that we are excited about his potential but, c'mon. A certain degree of honesty is needed in his evaluations. If we are being honest we are talking about a guy who will be 24 by the start of what will be his 3rd year. He has a 1 year contract with a team that won't be able to afford him in the off season. He has 30 career tackles and 4.5 career sacks. He is a former UDFA, that is playing out of position in Dallas because we have no real DE's.


And pass-deflections, and hurries, and Forced-Fumbles, and all in a very limited number of snaps.

I think he will be a beast, that is not crazy after that production from a raw talent who i believe is being coached up very well.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
What has DLaw shown you that you are so confident in his skills, that no one we draft will be better?

He was picked 34th overall not 4th. He has 9 career sacks not 90. He was suspended last year and dismal when he did play. He was getting like 7-15 snaps a game down the stretch. He had 1 sack last year not 11. If you want to sweep his worst professional career season under the rug because his back surgery then get ready to sweep another one up because he just had another.

David Irving was great on about 10 snaps last year. That's it. He was invisible beyond that. He recorded a single tackle in our playoff loss, and was a complete non factor. He should honestly be a 3T. Sure he is young, but he doesn't stop you from drafting anything.

Mayowa is a promising pass rush specialist that, at 245 lbs, has no business on the field on 1st/2nd down.

Tapper is a complete unkown but only has an early fourth round pedigree. Doesn't stop you from drafting a 1st rounder.

Domontre Moore is a head case that will likely be on yet another team next year regardless of his upcoming production.

Randy Gregory is so high that he can only stay home and fold the dishes.

Am I missing something? The reasons we could use 1st round talent on the DL are sound.


Me thinks you are swinging the pendulum to far the other way. DLaws and O Vernon's 2015 were statistically identical, and he is the highest paid DE in football.

Back injuries are no joke. Especially if they linger. I will concede that he may never be 100%... but if he is, then he is def starter quality.

Mayowa and Irving showed enough that you shouldnt completely disregard them. There is potential there.

And then there is tapper. That makes 4 players. 2 first string, 2 second string. It isnt going to strike fear but it is a shame to say these are the 2013 (?) Cowboys DL JAG/street FAs.

Right now we currently do not have a starting RT, SS and CB (IMO). All three of those positions would be of a higher impact in terms of snap count than a DE.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JShank wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
JShank wrote:
If you put Irving's tape from last year and his measurables against this year's draft class, he would be picked over all but Garrett.



You can disagree with me, but it is not a meme-deserving crazy claim. Analysts have said the similar things. . . Irving goes number 12 overall in the link below.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000799656/article/2015-nfl-draft-doover-david-johnson-goes-before-todd-gurley
Dude has 4.5 career sacks.

edit - for reference, there were 7 rookies in the NFL last year with 5 or more sacks, and Irving has had two seasons to accumulate those 4.5.

http://www.draftseason.com/ds-nfl-rookie-roundup/

Jonathan Allen, Solomon Thomas, Derek Barnett, Taco Charlton, TJ Watt, Charles Harris, Takkarist McKinley, Jordan Willis, & Tyus Bowser are all likely upgrades over Irving. And I was generous and left out Malik McDowell and Haasan Reddick.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
What has DLaw shown you that you are so confident in his skills, that no one we draft will be better?

He was picked 34th overall not 4th. He has 9 career sacks not 90. He was suspended last year and dismal when he did play. He was getting like 7-15 snaps a game down the stretch. He had 1 sack last year not 11. If you want to sweep his worst professional career season under the rug because his back surgery then get ready to sweep another one up because he just had another.

David Irving was great on about 10 snaps last year. That's it. He was invisible beyond that. He recorded a single tackle in our playoff loss, and was a complete non factor. He should honestly be a 3T. Sure he is young, but he doesn't stop you from drafting anything.

Mayowa is a promising pass rush specialist that, at 245 lbs, has no business on the field on 1st/2nd down.

Tapper is a complete unkown but only has an early fourth round pedigree. Doesn't stop you from drafting a 1st rounder.

Domontre Moore is a head case that will likely be on yet another team next year regardless of his upcoming production.

Randy Gregory is so high that he can only stay home and fold the dishes.

Am I missing something? The reasons we could use 1st round talent on the DL are sound.


Me thinks you are swinging the pendulum to far the other way. DLaws and O Vernon's 2015 were statistically identical, and he is the highest paid DE in football.

Back injuries are no joke. Especially if they linger. I will concede that he may never be 100%... but if he is, then he is def starter quality.

Mayowa and Irving showed enough that you shouldnt completely disregard them. There is potential there.

And then there is tapper. That makes 4 players. 2 first string, 2 second string. It isnt going to strike fear but it is a shame to say these are the 2013 (?) Cowboys DL JAG/street FAs.

Right now we currently do not have a starting RT, SS and CB (IMO). All three of those positions would be of a higher impact in terms of snap count than a DE.


Vernon getting vastly overpaid did not make him better, and it doesn't make DLaw better either. Contract amount is a very poor way to measure someones talent in today's NFL. Back injuries are no joke. That I can agree with. So let's not joke around with this, and just assume that DLaw will be 100% or even 90%. It's safer to assume that he will be like he was last year. Obviously not out of the question that he will return to 2015 form, but that's nothing bank on and I doubt the Cowboys are.

I am not completely disregarding Mayowa. You quoted me saying that he was a promising pass rush specialist. He is to small to be effective on running plays though, and even as a pass rusher we are talking about potential here. He had 6 sacks.

David Irving has flashed greatness, no doubt. Still just flashes though, and even if he IS great, he is on a 1 year deal. He isn't by any means a corner stone yet, and may never be for us anyway.

I understand we need BODIES at CB. That's not what the 1st round of the draft is for.

Scandrick/Brown/Carroll > Demarcus Lawrence/Irving/ Mayowa

Hell the 3 CBs nearly have the same number of career sacks as the DE's lol.

Scandrick has more sacks than any of them.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Scandrick/Brown/Carroll > Demarcus Lawrence/Irving/ Mayowa

Hell the 3 CBs nearly have the same number of career sacks as the DE's lol.

Scandrick has more sacks than any of them.


Absolutely disagree. Our secondary is in much dire straits. And you forgot the safeties too.

And really? Scandrick has more playing years than those guys combined, as well.

The only credible argument, to me, is that DE is worth more than CB. And I agree with that. My point is that if we are talking about the 6th ranked DE or the 3rd best S or CB, the decision might be easy.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Quote:
Scandrick/Brown/Carroll > Demarcus Lawrence/Irving/ Mayowa

Hell the 3 CBs nearly have the same number of career sacks as the DE's lol.

Scandrick has more sacks than any of them.


Absolutely disagree. Our secondary is in much dire straits. And you forgot the safeties too.

And really? Scandrick has more playing years than those guys combined, as well.

The only credible argument, to me, is that DE is worth more than CB. And I agree with that. My point is that if we are talking about the 6th ranked DE or the 3rd best S or CB, the decision might be easy.
This man. A quality DE makes any CB or S look better. A great secondary can help but its not as impactful as a stud pass rusher. The most effective way to stop the pass is to disrupt the passer.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JShank wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
David Irving had 17 tackles and 4 sacks last year. The bulk of those coming in two games.

I get that we are excited about his potential but, c'mon. A certain degree of honesty is needed in his evaluations. If we are being honest we are talking about a guy who will be 24 by the start of what will be his 3rd year. He has a 1 year contract with a team that won't be able to afford him in the off season. He has 30 career tackles and 4.5 career sacks. He is a former UDFA, that is playing out of position in Dallas because we have no real DE's.


And pass-deflections, and hurries, and Forced-Fumbles, and all in a very limited number of snaps.

I think he will be a beast, that is not crazy after that production from a raw talent who i believe is being coached up very well.


Great, but he is on a 1 year deal and is set to get PAID in FA, and that's only if he has another year like he just had. Imagine if he has a year like you are predicting? As matts just brought up Vernon and his contract, the FA market in the NFL is crazy these days and Dallas isn't biting thank God. We still have to pay Romo next year, but we should be in better position to give Irving a huge deal. They won't though if the Cowboys think they can find a guy to match his production(shouldn't be hard to this point), or even out perform him while on a cheap rookie deal. They have probably thought about that. Irving will be more expensive next year than who ever we draft, but how much better will be from Watt, Harris, or Takk?

The Cowboys used to have a draft philosophy that had them drafting players in positions where starters were about to leave. DLaw has been suspended and injured, and it's not bad form to call him a disappointment so far after we traded up for him. Are we going to give him a 2nd contract? Are we going to be able to afford David Irving after he get's 17 sacks like everyone seems to think he will get? We have seen Hatcher, Canty, McClain, and Bowen all walk for big bucks after flashing potential. See the trend in our philosophy?

Is Randy Gregory even worth mentioning at this point?

I like Tapper. In the draft "GDT" last year I was banging the table for him right before we picked him. Because of that, I feel like I picked him. But, he too, has back issues. He was also a 5T in college in a 3-4 defense. There is very little but his outstanding measurable's to suggest that he will be a good 4-3 DE. That's why he was a 4th rounder. Not a 1st. I hope he will be great, and I think he will be. But he is nothing more than a question mark with a 3rd round grade at best.

We probably agree more than we disagree about Mayowa, but he has only 2 years left on his deal and then he is a 28 year old UFA(he turns 26 in August). Despite his potential he isn't exactly a 20 year old rookie like Barnett. These next 2 years will be the prime of his career.

I don't see any DEs that are long for this team. Who will be here in 2018? If DLaw stumbles, yet again this year, do we re-sign him? Will we be able to afford Irving, or can we replace his production with someone on a rookie contract? Will Mayowa ever be anything more than a specialist? How long can we wait for a 26 year old to develop? Will I ever be able to say Randy Gregory's name without a punch line?

Moving forward I only see Tapper, and that's IF he is what I hope he can be. Who plays on the other side? Who rotates in?

Meanwhile Byron Jones isn't going anywhere as he is a 1st rounder. Orlando Scandrick has 3 years left on his 5 year deal. Anthony Brown is a gem and he isn't going anywhere. Then there's our nickle corner, and SS who could use an upgrade.

We need help at BOTH positions.
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