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What's the Deal with the D-Line?
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JShank


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 734
Location: Palm Beach County FL
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: What's the Deal with the D-Line? Reply with quote

Everyone seems to think that the Cowboys are desperate for pass rushers. Not only most on this forum, but that is the majority view among analysts and the media, too.

The Dallas Cowboys Defense ranked:

* 5th in points allowed
* 13th in sacks
* 1st in rushing yards
* 25th in passing yards - not good!

It is important to note that many of the top pass-rushing/sack producing teams last year were also the worst against the pass. (I.e. Panthers, Packers, Titans)

As for the D-Line in specific, I think it is solid, youthful, and trending up.

* Maliek Collins should keep progressing, and he will have a full off-season.

* David Irving looks like a beast, Lance Zierlein did a 2015 "re-draft" on
NFL.com and had Irving going at 12. I think he starts opposite D Law the
this year.

* D Law only deserves one more shot, and he will get one more shot - It is
his make or break year.

* Charles Tapper is cleared to play.

* Benson Mayowa 6 sacks and only started 6 games.

Everybody wants their "War Daddy" LOL. I just don't think one is available at 28. Myles Garrett and Soloman Thomas are the only "War Daddies" worth a first rounder for us. IMO After Garrett and Thomas, there is a bevy of very good prospects that can be had in the 2nd round.

There is no real huge difference between Harris, Charlton, Takk, Lawson, Willis, Basham, Rivers, etc. . .

Besides Garrett and Thomas, I do not believe the lot listed above will start over Irving and D-Law on the edge. Therefore, they will simply be rotational, along with Tapper and Mayowa. Again, that is cool and I wouldn't mind that, but not at 28.

The last few years we have been - dare I say - the best Drafting team in the league, and it is paying dividends. It seems we really try to adhere to the BPA approach. Why ought we change now? Why is everyone so gung-ho about drafting whatever edge rusher falls to us. . . even if value is elsewhere. Wait till 60 for an edge rusher (unless they can start at SLB on 1st & 2nd then rotate down on passing downs) and draft a day one starter at 28.

I would like to hear from you guys on this. Convince me that we shouldn't use our 28 on a guy that can come in and start this year at CB, SS, LB, O-Lineman, or WR, and instead pick a "pass-rush specialist".
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cowboyfanin2890


Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 1872
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the Deal with the D-Line? Reply with quote

JShank wrote:
Everyone seems to think that the Cowboys are desperate for pass rushers. Not only most on this forum, but that is the majority view among analysts and the media, too.

The Dallas Cowboys Defense ranked:

* 5th in points allowed
* 13th in sacks
* 1st in rushing yards
* 25th in passing yards - not good!

It is important to note that many of the top pass-rushing/sack producing teams last year were also the worst against the pass. (I.e. Panthers, Packers, Titans)

As for the D-Line in specific, I think it is solid, youthful, and trending up.

* Maliek Collins should keep progressing, and he will have a full off-season.

* David Irving looks like a beast, Lance Zierlein did a 2015 "re-draft" on
NFL.com and had Irving going at 12. I think he starts opposite D Law the
this year.

* D Law only deserves one more shot, and he will get one more shot - It is
his make or break year.

* Charles Tapper is cleared to play.

* Benson Mayowa 6 sacks and only started 6 games.

Everybody wants their "War Daddy" LOL. I just don't think one is available at 28. Myles Garrett and Soloman Thomas are the only "War Daddies" worth a first rounder for us. IMO After Garrett and Thomas, there is a bevy of very good prospects that can be had in the 2nd round.

There is no real huge difference between Harris, Charlton, Takk, Lawson, Willis, Basham, Rivers, etc. . .

Besides Garrett and Thomas, I do not believe the lot listed above will start over Irving and D-Law on the edge. Therefore, they will simply be rotational, along with Tapper and Mayowa. Again, that is cool and I wouldn't mind that, but not at 28.

The last few years we have been - dare I say - the best Drafting team in the league, and it is paying dividends. It seems we really try to adhere to the BPA approach. Why ought we change now? Why is everyone so gung-ho about drafting whatever edge rusher falls to us. . . even if value is elsewhere. Wait till 60 for an edge rusher (unless they can start at SLB on 1st & 2nd then rotate down on passing downs) and draft a day one starter at 28.

I would like to hear from you guys on this. Convince me that we shouldn't use our 28 on a guy that can come in and start this year at CB, SS, LB, O-Lineman, or WR, and instead pick a "pass-rush specialist".


We manufactured sacks for the most part last year the D-line did not dominate. Looking at our D-line right now is akin to looking at our O-line all them years and the Boys just tried hiring Gurus to get it done. Our highest sack guy had 6 and we had 13 different players log those 36 sacks which is not a huge number. We ranked 26th in QB pressures and that number is more telling than the sacks. Our 6 sack guy is not a starter he is someone who comes in on passing downs and the 2 guys we drafted in the 2nd round in different years, 2 sacks between them.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason everyone feels this way is we have about 8 guys who are good enough to be in a rotation, but we dont have anyone who is feared. One of the reasons we are decent against the rush and arent awful at sacks is when we rotate from our 1st to 2nd string, the drop off is minimal.

But everyone wants that 1 guy who will just dominate. I mean, I want one too - but I agree that I dont want to overdraft someone who really isnt going to be better than a Irvin/Lawrence.
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CAPJ


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the Deal with the D-Line? Reply with quote

JShank wrote:
Everyone seems to think that the Cowboys are desperate for pass rushers. Not only most on this forum, but that is the majority view among analysts and the media, too.

The Dallas Cowboys Defense ranked:

* 5th in points allowed
* 13th in sacks
* 1st in rushing yards
* 25th in passing yards - not good!

It is important to note that many of the top pass-rushing/sack producing teams last year were also the worst against the pass. (I.e. Panthers, Packers, Titans)

As for the D-Line in specific, I think it is solid, youthful, and trending up.

* Maliek Collins should keep progressing, and he will have a full off-season.

* David Irving looks like a beast, Lance Zierlein did a 2015 "re-draft" on
NFL.com and had Irving going at 12. I think he starts opposite D Law the
this year.

* D Law only deserves one more shot, and he will get one more shot - It is
his make or break year.

* Charles Tapper is cleared to play.

* Benson Mayowa 6 sacks and only started 6 games.

Everybody wants their "War Daddy" LOL. I just don't think one is available at 28. Myles Garrett and Soloman Thomas are the only "War Daddies" worth a first rounder for us. IMO After Garrett and Thomas, there is a bevy of very good prospects that can be had in the 2nd round.

There is no real huge difference between Harris, Charlton, Takk, Lawson, Willis, Basham, Rivers, etc. . .

Besides Garrett and Thomas, I do not believe the lot listed above will start over Irving and D-Law on the edge. Therefore, they will simply be rotational, along with Tapper and Mayowa. Again, that is cool and I wouldn't mind that, but not at 28.

The last few years we have been - dare I say - the best Drafting team in the league, and it is paying dividends. It seems we really try to adhere to the BPA approach. Why ought we change now? Why is everyone so gung-ho about drafting whatever edge rusher falls to us. . . even if value is elsewhere. Wait till 60 for an edge rusher (unless they can start at SLB on 1st & 2nd then rotate down on passing downs) and draft a day one starter at 28.

I would like to hear from you guys on this. Convince me that we shouldn't use our 28 on a guy that can come in and start this year at CB, SS, LB, O-Lineman, or WR, and instead pick a "pass-rush specialist".


The problem is we are inconsistent with our pass rush. Not always about sacks but about consistent pressure on the quarterback. Most of our sacks came during a stretch of games where we had to get creative to get after the quarterback.

The Tampa 2 is based on being able to rush the passer with 4 lineman which we are not great at because we do not have a consistent pass rusher that strikes fear into an offense. With that being said I do not see us being able to grab one at 28.

To your point about being the best at drafting the last few years, I can agree with that, however we have not been great at drafting d-lineman with the exception being Collins last year. Tank Lawrence has not been consistent, has been injured/suspended, Gregory was a risk that was worth taking but did not turn out.

Since 2010 we have drafted 8 D-Lineman with only 3 being picked in the Top 3 rounds. If we are going to be drafting at the back half of each round and know that we cant get a top DE/DT then we need to start spending more picks on d-linemen to hope that one of them turns into something more than just a guy.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We almost never run the Tampa 2 any more. Its sprinkled in, but that is not our base defense, IMO
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the Deal with the D-Line? Reply with quote

JShank wrote:
I would like to hear from you guys on this. Convince me that we shouldn't use our 28 on a guy that can come in and start this year at CB, SS, LB, O-Lineman, or WR, and instead pick a "pass-rush specialist".
Isn't a pass rusher going to be a Day 1 starter for Dallas? Especially at DE.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the Deal with the D-Line? Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
JShank wrote:
I would like to hear from you guys on this. Convince me that we shouldn't use our 28 on a guy that can come in and start this year at CB, SS, LB, O-Lineman, or WR, and instead pick a "pass-rush specialist".
Isn't a pass rusher going to be a Day 1 starter for Dallas? Especially at DE.


Depends on who it is. If somehow magically Barnett fell, yeah. Most of the other guys would probably be rotated in. Assuming they are healthy, DLaw is our RDE and Irving/Mayowe is our LDE
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the Deal with the D-Line? Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
JShank wrote:
I would like to hear from you guys on this. Convince me that we shouldn't use our 28 on a guy that can come in and start this year at CB, SS, LB, O-Lineman, or WR, and instead pick a "pass-rush specialist".
Isn't a pass rusher going to be a Day 1 starter for Dallas? Especially at DE.


Depends on who it is. If somehow magically Barnett fell, yeah. Most of the other guys would probably be rotated in. Assuming they are healthy, DLaw is our RDE and Irving/Mayowe is our LDE
You really believe a first round DE wouldn't start over these guys?

edit - I'd like to point out too that its highly unlikely any rookie secondary player will start day 1 regardless of who they are. They just aren't ready. That goes for WR too.

Lber or Oline would probably be the only guaranteed Day 1 starters, but aren't you guys holding out hope on Jaylon Smith? And you have Sean Lee. So who are you going to replace, your SLB (idk know who plays that for you)? Most SLBs available in the late 1st are probably going to be edge rushing tweeners, which are essentially pass rushers.

You guys really going to go Oline again?

I think you can argue a CB or S could happen in the first, but to make the argument that that player will fill a day 1 starter need is a poor argument IMO.
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matt79511


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the Deal with the D-Line? Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
JShank wrote:
I would like to hear from you guys on this. Convince me that we shouldn't use our 28 on a guy that can come in and start this year at CB, SS, LB, O-Lineman, or WR, and instead pick a "pass-rush specialist".
Isn't a pass rusher going to be a Day 1 starter for Dallas? Especially at DE.


Depends on who it is. If somehow magically Barnett fell, yeah. Most of the other guys would probably be rotated in. Assuming they are healthy, DLaw is our RDE and Irving/Mayowe is our LDE
You really believe a first round DE wouldn't start over these guys?

edit - I'd like to point out too that its highly unlikely any rookie secondary player will start day 1 regardless of who they are. They just aren't ready. That goes for WR too.

Lber or Oline would probably be the only guaranteed Day 1 starters, but aren't you guys holding out hope on Jaylon Smith? And you have Sean Lee. So who are you going to replace, your SLB (idk know who plays that for you)? Most SLBs available in the late 1st are probably going to be edge rushing tweeners, which are essentially pass rushers.

You guys really going to go Oline again?

I think you can argue a CB or S could happen in the first, but to make the argument that that player will fill a day 1 starter need is a poor argument IMO.


No Dallas fan in this thread is making the argument that their first rounder this year has to "fill a day 1 starter need." That's just short-sighted.

Any DB Dallas drafts at 28 or 60 probably starts out as the dime-back behind Scandrick, Brown, Carroll, Jones, and Heath, as Jones himself did when we were in this spot 2 years ago, then moves his way into a starting role as injuries happen and/or the natural order of progression occurs.

Lawrence, Irving, and Mayowa are grown-@ss men who've spent multiple years in the league growing out their bodies and learning how to play against NFL schemes. Dismiss their abilities as you wish, but any DE Dallas were to take at 28 is a flawed prospect, and, comparably, a child. It's still their best chance at filling the void of a 10-sack a year edge rusher, but that sort of player is every bit as rare as a franchise quarterback these days, and would take at least as much time to fill out his frame and hone his abilities as any other positions. Marinelli rarely starts rookies on the DL- Maliek Collins was a huge anomaly in this regard.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the Deal with the D-Line? Reply with quote

matt79511 wrote:
No Dallas fan in this thread is making the argument that their first rounder this year has to "fill a day 1 starter need." That's just short-sighted.
Did you read the OP? His argument is that Dallas should consider a position that can start day 1 instead of a pass rusher that might not start this year. I was responding to that.

matt79511 wrote:
Any DB Dallas drafts at 28 or 60 probably starts out as the dime-back behind Scandrick, Brown, Carroll, Jones, and Heath, as Jones himself did when we were in this spot 2 years ago, then moves his way into a starting role as injuries happen and/or the natural order of progression occurs.
I posted this same thing. I said any defensive back Dallas drafts likely doesn't start Day 1. Again, I was responding to the OP who's argument is that a pass rusher shouldn't be selected because he won't start day 1.

matt79511 wrote:
Lawrence, Irving, and Mayowa are grown-@ss men who've spent multiple years in the league growing out their bodies and learning how to play against NFL schemes. Dismiss their abilities as you wish, but any DE Dallas were to take at 28 is a flawed prospect, and, comparably, a child. It's still their best chance at filling the void of a 10-sack a year edge rusher, but that sort of player is every bit as rare as a franchise quarterback these days, and would take at least as much time to fill out his frame and hone his abilities as any other positions. Marinelli rarely starts rookies on the DL- Maliek Collins was a huge anomaly in this regard.
This is where you and the OP disagree with me. I don't think Dallas' DEs are anything special, and there are several DEs in the first you could select that I think would start for Dallas Day 1. Malik McDowell, TJ Watt, Takkarist McKinley, Charles Harris, & Tyus Bowser could all be on the board for Dallas and are all more talented than any DE they have IMO.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The deal with the DL is that we lost Crawford and McClain, Gregory is suspended for the year, DLaw and Tapper are coming off back surgeries, and we lost 4 veteran players in the secondary who actually played really well as a whole.

Collins and Irving are flashing potential, but outside of those 2 guys, the DL is full of JAGs and injured JAGs. We haven't had a player get 10 sacks in a season since Hatcher. If we want to have a chance to beat teams like ATL and the Patriots, we need to more effectively rush the QB.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We don't have a difference maker on the DL no one who opposing offenses say man we have to stop him. When we need a pass rush most we don't have that player who can be relied on to deliver it
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the Deal with the D-Line? Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
matt79511 wrote:
No Dallas fan in this thread is making the argument that their first rounder this year has to "fill a day 1 starter need." That's just short-sighted.
Did you read the OP? His argument is that Dallas should consider a position that can start day 1 instead of a pass rusher that might not start this year. I was responding to that.

matt79511 wrote:
Any DB Dallas drafts at 28 or 60 probably starts out as the dime-back behind Scandrick, Brown, Carroll, Jones, and Heath, as Jones himself did when we were in this spot 2 years ago, then moves his way into a starting role as injuries happen and/or the natural order of progression occurs.
I posted this same thing. I said any defensive back Dallas drafts likely doesn't start Day 1. Again, I was responding to the OP who's argument is that a pass rusher shouldn't be selected because he won't start day 1.

matt79511 wrote:
Lawrence, Irving, and Mayowa are grown-@ss men who've spent multiple years in the league growing out their bodies and learning how to play against NFL schemes. Dismiss their abilities as you wish, but any DE Dallas were to take at 28 is a flawed prospect, and, comparably, a child. It's still their best chance at filling the void of a 10-sack a year edge rusher, but that sort of player is every bit as rare as a franchise quarterback these days, and would take at least as much time to fill out his frame and hone his abilities as any other positions. Marinelli rarely starts rookies on the DL- Maliek Collins was a huge anomaly in this regard.
This is where you and the OP disagree with me. I don't think Dallas' DEs are anything special, and there are several DEs in the first you could select that I think would start for Dallas Day 1. Malik McDowell, TJ Watt, Takkarist McKinley, Charles Harris, & Tyus Bowser could all be on the board for Dallas and are all more talented than any DE they have IMO.


S and possibly CB could both be day 1 starters. I def think a CB would play more snaps than a DE (barring injury, of course).
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flyingmonkey30


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can look at the Stephen Jones quote that I'll just paraphrase - we have some decent rotational talent, but as Matts said, we don't have that feared pass rusher that people have to gameplan for. I don't think the rest of the DL is as bad as people make it out to be.
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matt79511


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the Deal with the D-Line? Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
matt79511 wrote:
No Dallas fan in this thread is making the argument that their first rounder this year has to "fill a day 1 starter need." That's just short-sighted.
Did you read the OP? His argument is that Dallas should consider a position that can start day 1 instead of a pass rusher that might not start this year. I was responding to that.

matt79511 wrote:
Any DB Dallas drafts at 28 or 60 probably starts out as the dime-back behind Scandrick, Brown, Carroll, Jones, and Heath, as Jones himself did when we were in this spot 2 years ago, then moves his way into a starting role as injuries happen and/or the natural order of progression occurs.
I posted this same thing. I said any defensive back Dallas drafts likely doesn't start Day 1. Again, I was responding to the OP who's argument is that a pass rusher shouldn't be selected because he won't start day 1.

matt79511 wrote:
Lawrence, Irving, and Mayowa are grown-@ss men who've spent multiple years in the league growing out their bodies and learning how to play against NFL schemes. Dismiss their abilities as you wish, but any DE Dallas were to take at 28 is a flawed prospect, and, comparably, a child. It's still their best chance at filling the void of a 10-sack a year edge rusher, but that sort of player is every bit as rare as a franchise quarterback these days, and would take at least as much time to fill out his frame and hone his abilities as any other positions. Marinelli rarely starts rookies on the DL- Maliek Collins was a huge anomaly in this regard.
This is where you and the OP disagree with me. I don't think Dallas' DEs are anything special, and there are several DEs in the first you could select that I think would start for Dallas Day 1. Malik McDowell, TJ Watt, Takkarist McKinley, Charles Harris, & Tyus Bowser could all be on the board for Dallas and are all more talented than any DE they have IMO.


You're right, I did kind of overlook/skim what the OP was saying, since the Dallas defensive line/pass rush has basically been talked to death and I felt like I've gotten the gist of it. fm30 just summed it up pretty well. I just think (know for a fact, actually) that the starter distinction matters comparably very little to total snaps played, and Dallas has a whole lot more snaps to replace from last year's secondary than they do from last year's defensive line. Say what you will of the Dallas DEs, but Nolan Carroll and Jeff Heath as every down starters is every bit as much of a concern if not infinitely more so.
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