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Progression to get back to the Superbowl?
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3182
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Progression to get back to the Superbowl? Reply with quote

This thread is simple what has to happen in order to get back to the Superbowl?

For instance if you think lynch can develop hes an answer, if you thin Trevor can become a franchise qb him developing can be a parr of your answer, If neither is an answer drafting a qb early is an answer.

where should the Broncos go round one on? Do we trade down what's an ideal situation in the next 5 months to get back to the Superbowl.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3609
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's this SB then draft-wise the answer is likely nothing. Drafts realistically don't produce difference makers in year 1 outside of the first round pick.

If we want to get back into the playoffs and go deep 3 areas stand out:

1. LT
2. Run D
3. Pass coverage against RB/TE

Draft wise the one guy who helps 2 & 3 is Reuben Foster. May not be there. Hassan Reddick almost as good and more versatile but also could be gone by 1.20. Of course neither address LT. That conundrum is well covered in the College Prospects Forum thread.

If we don't address LT in Rd 1 we should look at trading for a guy like Joe Staley. But not at a king's ransom. Sadly while he's been available (EDIT: in past seasons) I don't think Joe Thomas is on the block anymore given CLE's emphasis on OL this offseason. The new GM seems to get it.

If we want to contend for multiple SB beyond this year we need for 2018+:

1. LT, RT & 1 G unless one of our current guys really takes off.
2. ILB - Todd Davis UFA next year and not worth keeping at UFA salaries.
3. Difference maker at TE.
4. 3-4 DE to go with Wolfe.
5. 3rd CB (Talib great but can't bank on him to go past this year worst case, 2018 best case)
6. 3rd WR
7. Better RB play than last year.

I put 3rd WR and RB last because I think they are the easiest to find.

I didn't put QB down because too soon to go in anything but the Siemian / Lynch show. Plus we have so many more needs before QB.

When you look at the 2018+ list...shows why ppl keep saying this Elway's most important draft since 2011. Gotta nail those top 125 picks - 5 of them right now, need at least 4 of the above needs met going into 2018.
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steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.


Last edited by Broncofan on Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:53 pm; edited 4 times in total
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will be mighty hard to reach the SB without knowing what we've got at QB. Pretty unfair to evaluate that position when the QB is getting cranked by edge rushers and has no time to throw. Tony Romo wasn't the same QB when he was finally protected.

I agree with BroncoFan's areas for improvement.

The biggest area we'll need to improve is in edge protection. Unfortunately the Broncos are SOL here. Elway was in this exact same position a couple years ago, we had nothing at either tackle spot, and were all but forced into a first round tackle - Elway traded up and drafted Shane Ray. Elway will always take the best player he can get his hands on in round one. This decision led to the Broncos forced selection of Ty Sambrailo in the 2nd round. To Elways credit, those first round tackles that he passed on have not been special to this point in their careers.

The next biggest is run defense. I honestly think we're worse off in this area than last year. Really hope Vance Walker is brought back after the draft. We've got bodies at Nose Tackle, who knows if any of those cheap signings will prove to be valuable, but this team has a gaping hole across from Wolfe at right end, and that needs to be addressed - hopefully in the form of Vance Walker.

Again I agree with BroncoFan, Reuben Foster would help here, and with our next biggest need - defending TE's and pass catching backs. With the current roster I don't see how we'll be able to do that this year. I'm actually of the belief that Reuben Foster is going to be there at the 20th pick. His play down the stretch really improved his stock, but his draft process didn't help him at all, and brought up character and intellectual concerns which often lead to falls in the draft. I've pounded the table for an OT for three straight seasons now, but if Reuben Foster's there I hope Elway takes him.



TE or dynamic receiving back are also needs, as the young QB's need a safety valve. With CJ coming back though, I don't think the need is as big as we make it out to be - at least not at RB. If I recall correctly, Booker was making splash plays more often as a complement to CJ than when he had the backfield to himself. They could be an OK tandem. At TE we could use a dynamic pass catcher, but I think our other needs are much too pressing to take one in the first round, especially with how deep this TE class is, we can find someone dynamic in rounds 2-4.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good call on Vance Walker. It's been widely mentioned in many mocks for our FA signings but it's been a while. It's worth mentioning Walker probably fits ideally as a rotational DE. He's not played more than 50 percent snaps but 1x on the last 5 years and not with us. In altitude and coming off ACL at his age he'd upgrade DE but wouldn't completely fill the need IMO. Still a great signing because he'd be cheap and definitely help us.

If he's cheap signing Jaye Howard makes sense. KC just released him because of their cap hell and the depth of their D-line. In run D he's actually really good. 2M or less and we should be all over that. Not much of a pass rush guy but for cheap helps us overall regardless at great value at 2M or less. Knowing the KC playbook is a bonus. Howard / Walker would help our run D. Get Foster at ILB and that's a major upgrade to our run D and pass D vs. TE/RB really addressed there.

T wise he's still there so we should explore bringing LT King Dunlap cheaply. He'd be better than Stephenson in a power scheme IMO as the rotational T who can play LT. Not the answer on his own unfortunately. But also cheap. And as a bonus knows the McCoy O.

Those 3 should be cheap FA signings Elway should explore IMO esp. if we pass on LT Rd 1 for a Foster / Reddick talent.
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steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no qualms about your guys opinions on needs. But offensively how much does an improved oline get more out of our skill positions. Specifically Booker, Jordan Taylor, and Fowler.

Im not touching foster with a 10 foot pole unless it's proven that his combine and failed drug test are related.

Now Hason Reddick if he is available I'd be on bored he's a rich mans do it all clay Mathews player who can pass cover, rush the passer, and stop the run.
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Big Palooka wrote:
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
no qualms about your guys opinions on needs. But offensively how much does an improved oline get more out of our skill positions. Specifically Booker, Jordan Taylor, and Fowler.

Im not touching foster with a 10 foot pole unless it's proven that his combine and failed drug test are related.

Now Hason Reddick if he is available I'd be on bored he's a rich mans do it all clay Mathews player who can pass cover, rush the passer, and stop the run.


His failed drug test was a dilute urine sample. Could be he was masking PED's. Or he was sick and just drank water like he says. Honestly neither explanation bothers me in this era. Anyone who thinks PED is an issue is kidding themselves in today's NFL. People are using Randy Gregory (3 failed drug tests before the NFL, not just 1, and known to be a habitual user that couldn't stop) or Laurence Phillips / Aaron Hernandez (long history of run-ins with the law with actual violence/weapons/assault) to say stay away. Complete apples to oranges comparisons. More like apples to anthrax comparisons.

Just remember this kind of draft stock fall is exactly like Shane Ray (drug test). and Bradley Roby (DUI). Both never had repeated histories, or mega-flags like weapons/violence. Elway's clearly not afraid to take that shot.

Put another way - if ppl were sure this wasn't a sign of a problem, Foster would go top 10. He was often top 10 even after the Combine incident (which I'll remind everyone - was a verbal confrontration - not a major line crossed IMO other than the usual hotheaded young male syndrome). He was even being talked about as a top 5, even #2 overall talk - which as a ILB, shows you how high his ceiling is, elite-level. That's a gift you don't pass up at 20, especially when it also meets our 2nd & 3rd biggest need (even without that last part, I'd still bang the table if he's there, this just makes it a no-doubt slam dunk). Hell, it might be a moot point - he might not even be there by the time we pick at 1.20. That good of a talent.
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steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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BroncoBruin


Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our LT situation is such a dumpster fire, signing a guy like Dunlap who has proven he can capably start without being a glaring liability could actually make a huge difference lol. Could be the difference between a bad O-line and one with potential to be average.
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broncos67


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
no qualms about your guys opinions on needs. But offensively how much does an improved oline get more out of our skill positions. Specifically Booker, Jordan Taylor, and Fowler.

Im not touching foster with a 10 foot pole unless it's proven that his combine and failed drug test are related.

Now Hason Reddick if he is available I'd be on bored he's a rich mans do it all clay Mathews player who can pass cover, rush the passer, and stop the run.


Those players are not good. We need to upgrade the OL, but get legitimate weapons alongside the OL. Booker is a nice backup RB- need to upgrade that. Fowler and Jordan Taylor are simply not good enough players. I know people like them, and maybe they are #4 guys or #5 guys, but we shouldn't be expecting them to be major contributors.

Denver needs to solidify the OT situation, but I do believe run defense is a significantly bigger problem. Denver's pass defense is on the verge of historical greatness. Teams know it and will avoid throwing as much, especially if they can run it on us like they did last year. Denver shoring up run defense will have a notable effect on the entire team.

Finally, Denver needs to get some playmakers. They need dynamic players who can make plays in space or who can create mismatches. We don't have anyone like that right now. I think a bruising RB will also help. Think Perine, Foreman, etc...we need someone who just tires out a defense.
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
no qualms about your guys opinions on needs. But offensively how much does an improved oline get more out of our skill positions. Specifically Booker, Jordan Taylor, and Fowler.

Im not touching foster with a 10 foot pole unless it's proven that his combine and failed drug test are related.

Now Hason Reddick if he is available I'd be on bored he's a rich mans do it all clay Mathews player who can pass cover, rush the passer, and stop the run.


Those players are not good. We need to upgrade the OL, but get legitimate weapons alongside the OL. Booker is a nice backup RB- need to upgrade that. Fowler and Jordan Taylor are simply not good enough players. I know people like them, and maybe they are #4 guys or #5 guys, but we shouldn't be expecting them to be major contributors.

Denver needs to solidify the OT situation, but I do believe run defense is a significantly bigger problem. Denver's pass defense is on the verge of historical greatness. Teams know it and will avoid throwing as much, especially if they can run it on us like they did last year. Denver shoring up run defense will have a notable effect on the entire team.

Finally, Denver needs to get some playmakers. They need dynamic players who can make plays in space or who can create mismatches. We don't have anyone like that right now. I think a bruising RB will also help. Think Perine, Foreman, etc...we need someone who just tires out a defense.


I would love to get Perine. Don't think foreman is a bruiser runs more finesse like a Ron Dayne. If Taylor and Fowler are 4/ and 5 wrs than we really need a slot/return guy ala Switzer.

At Tight end I like the guy from Iowa he was in a prpstyle offense and can do it all.
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Big Palooka wrote:
"They don't have to worry about him making consistent passes. They will win another 2-3 max with him at QB."
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncoBruin wrote:
Our LT situation is such a dumpster fire, signing a guy like Dunlap who has proven he can capably start without being a glaring liability could actually make a huge difference lol. Could be the difference between a bad O-line and one with potential to be average.


So very true and so very sad. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.
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broncos67


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
no qualms about your guys opinions on needs. But offensively how much does an improved oline get more out of our skill positions. Specifically Booker, Jordan Taylor, and Fowler.

Im not touching foster with a 10 foot pole unless it's proven that his combine and failed drug test are related.

Now Hason Reddick if he is available I'd be on bored he's a rich mans do it all clay Mathews player who can pass cover, rush the passer, and stop the run.


Those players are not good. We need to upgrade the OL, but get legitimate weapons alongside the OL. Booker is a nice backup RB- need to upgrade that. Fowler and Jordan Taylor are simply not good enough players. I know people like them, and maybe they are #4 guys or #5 guys, but we shouldn't be expecting them to be major contributors.

Denver needs to solidify the OT situation, but I do believe run defense is a significantly bigger problem. Denver's pass defense is on the verge of historical greatness. Teams know it and will avoid throwing as much, especially if they can run it on us like they did last year. Denver shoring up run defense will have a notable effect on the entire team.

Finally, Denver needs to get some playmakers. They need dynamic players who can make plays in space or who can create mismatches. We don't have anyone like that right now. I think a bruising RB will also help. Think Perine, Foreman, etc...we need someone who just tires out a defense.


I would love to get Perine. Don't think foreman is a bruiser runs more finesse like a Ron Dayne. If Taylor and Fowler are 4/ and 5 wrs than we really need a slot/return guy ala Switzer.

At Tight end I like the guy from Iowa he was in a prpstyle offense and can do it all.


Kittle? He's alright. This is a deep TE class. I liked a suggestion I saw to draft two TEs out of this class.

Frankly, I love Evan Engram. He's going to be a stud. I hope we land him somehow.
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Reggie Nelson#1


Joined: 08 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
no qualms about your guys opinions on needs. But offensively how much does an improved oline get more out of our skill positions. Specifically Booker, Jordan Taylor, and Fowler.

Im not touching foster with a 10 foot pole unless it's proven that his combine and failed drug test are related.

Now Hason Reddick if he is available I'd be on bored he's a rich mans do it all clay Mathews player who can pass cover, rush the passer, and stop the run.


Those players are not good. We need to upgrade the OL, but get legitimate weapons alongside the OL. Booker is a nice backup RB- need to upgrade that. Fowler and Jordan Taylor are simply not good enough players. I know people like them, and maybe they are #4 guys or #5 guys, but we shouldn't be expecting them to be major contributors.

Denver needs to solidify the OT situation, but I do believe run defense is a significantly bigger problem. Denver's pass defense is on the verge of historical greatness. Teams know it and will avoid throwing as much, especially if they can run it on us like they did last year. Denver shoring up run defense will have a notable effect on the entire team.

Finally, Denver needs to get some playmakers. They need dynamic players who can make plays in space or who can create mismatches. We don't have anyone like that right now. I think a bruising RB will also help. Think Perine, Foreman, etc...we need someone who just tires out a defense.


I would love to get Perine. Don't think foreman is a bruiser runs more finesse like a Ron Dayne. If Taylor and Fowler are 4/ and 5 wrs than we really need a slot/return guy ala Switzer.

At Tight end I like the guy from Iowa he was in a prpstyle offense and can do it all.


Kittle? He's alright. This is a deep TE class. I liked a suggestion I saw to draft two TEs out of this class.

Frankly, I love Evan Engram. He's going to be a stud. I hope we land him somehow.

He reminds me a lot of Aaron Hernandez coming out of Florida.
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
The biggest area we'll need to improve is in edge protection. Unfortunately the Broncos are SOL here. Elway was in this exact same position a couple years ago, we had nothing at either tackle spot, and were all but forced into a first round tackle - Elway traded up and drafted Shane Ray. Elway will always take the best player he can get his hands on in round one.

I sure hope you are right on this. The historical precedent is there, as you point out, Elway has always taken the best player he can reasonably get in round 1. I'm just scared to death we're going to end up taking a Bolles or Robinson with our first pick. There was some podcast I was listening to the other day, can't remember which one, where the guys talking about trading up for Bolles. You want to see me have a draft day meltdown you'll see an epic one if we go that route!

elliot878 wrote:
Again I agree with BroncoFan, Reuben Foster would help here, and with our next biggest need - defending TE's and pass catching backs. With the current roster I don't see how we'll be able to do that this year. I'm actually of the belief that Reuben Foster is going to be there at the 20th pick. His play down the stretch really improved his stock, but his draft process didn't help him at all, and brought up character and intellectual concerns which often lead to falls in the draft. I've pounded the table for an OT for three straight seasons now, but if Reuben Foster's there I hope Elway takes him.

This is where I come down as well. If Foster is there at 20 we need to sprint to the podium and make him the pick. Not only would he fill a need, he brings the attitude and demeanor of defense, which is downright vicious, and reinforce the strength of the team.
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BroncoBruin


Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
BroncoBruin wrote:
Our LT situation is such a dumpster fire, signing a guy like Dunlap who has proven he can capably start without being a glaring liability could actually make a huge difference lol. Could be the difference between a bad O-line and one with potential to be average.


So very true and so very sad. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Yeah, the in-house options are not real options. The prospect of Stephenson at LT is nightmare-inducing. And in all honesty, Ty Sambrailo should never step on an NFL field again.

Unrelated but I'm amazed that teams even let their best offensive linemen hit free agency anymore. Their replacements are not on the way from college, this problem will only get worse. Can't emphasize enough that teams should be willing to overpay their best linemen in today's NFL.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncoBruin wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
BroncoBruin wrote:
Our LT situation is such a dumpster fire, signing a guy like Dunlap who has proven he can capably start without being a glaring liability could actually make a huge difference lol. Could be the difference between a bad O-line and one with potential to be average.


So very true and so very sad. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Yeah, the in-house options are not real options. The prospect of Stephenson at LT is nightmare-inducing. And in all honesty, Ty Sambrailo should never step on an NFL field again.

Unrelated but I'm amazed that teams even let their best offensive linemen hit free agency anymore. Their replacements are not on the way from college, this problem will only get worse. Can't emphasize enough that teams should be willing to overpay their best linemen in today's NFL.


You're right on the money! Most of these guys coming out now can't even play with their hand in the dirt and it is getting worse. All the aggressive players seem to be on the other side of the LOS.

The year we drafted Ty I didn't like any of the early OT's in that draft. Red flags with all of them and no real nasty SOB's.

Right now though I think we're stuck. Elway doesn't seem to want to pay for quality OL FA's and doesn't want to draft one high. Confused

It's a pendulum though in the NFL. O Linemen salaries will start going through the roof, younger kids will take notice and in ten years the college OL ranks will be packed with much better, aggressive talent.
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