Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

2017 Draft Thread 3: Draft day
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 86, 87, 88, 89  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> San Francisco 49ers
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 19694
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not suggesting this, just curious. What round draft pick we could get in a trade for hyde
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rudyZ


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 17037
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Not suggesting this, just curious. What round draft pick we could get in a trade for hyde



I think third rounder at best. I'd stick with him. I think he's a good fit for just about any running offense. He can run inside or outside, he can plant and cut and head upfield, can break tackles and avoid them. Really, the only question about him has been his health, and that's why I don't think we'd get any significant return on him via trade. Maybe he plays every game this year, and if Kylo doesn't want to build the offense around him, we let him go. Maybe we get a comp pick similar to what we would have gotten in a trade, plus one year of production, which would allow us to bring along guys like Williams and hopefully Breida slowly. Maybe Williams takes over faster and makes Hyde expendable. Maybe Hyde breaks out and earns a second contract. Either way, I think we benefit more from keeping him than trading him right now.
_________________


RudyZ's Power Rankings Power Ranking

1) RudyZ's Power Rankings Power Ranking
2) y2's pie Power Rankings (3.1416 rules!)
3) N4L's Poster Power Rankings
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 19069
Location: Las Vegas
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Not suggesting this, just curious. What round draft pick we could get in a trade for hyde


A six, maybe?
_________________


Stupid NFL coaches and their need to reach for quarterbacks....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John232


Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 13339
Location: Los Angeles
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be content with a fourth, but he's in a contract year so I wouldn't expect anything more than a 7.
_________________

xsaMainevent on the sig
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rudyZ


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 17037
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John232 wrote:
I'd be content with a fourth, but he's in a contract year so I wouldn't expect anything more than a 7.



Better wait and hope for a compensatory pick, then. Although, we might not get any if we end up signing Cousins.
_________________


RudyZ's Power Rankings Power Ranking

1) RudyZ's Power Rankings Power Ranking
2) y2's pie Power Rankings (3.1416 rules!)
3) N4L's Poster Power Rankings
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
John232


Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 13339
Location: Los Angeles
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
John232 wrote:
I'd be content with a fourth, but he's in a contract year so I wouldn't expect anything more than a 7.



Better wait and hope for a compensatory pick, then. Although, we might not get any if we end up signing Cousins.


Yeah, Agreed. He's more valuable to us now than a 7th round pick.
_________________

xsaMainevent on the sig
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 19069
Location: Las Vegas
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most people know that I love Hyde. He was my number one running back in that draft class, I'm an OSU fan, so my bias comes naturally with regards to him, and I've been a big proponent his actual skill, so obviously, I'm not going to be upset if we keep him.

That being said, if someone offers me a six for him, I will wish him well and take the 6th if we have already made the conscious decision that he's not a fit and we are likely moving on (though I would try for a fifth in the 2019 draft).

Is his skillset worth more than a 6th? Sure (though he can't stay healthy). But not really to us. I mean, what kind of value does one year of production in a lost season really have? Sure, we may not get a good player with that pick, but I'd take my chances. The idea of just going for the comp pick doesn't work with what I want either - I want us to be active in the next year free agency. I don't want to have any comp picks. It's not just Cousins that's out there.

I would also disagree that Hyde is a good fit for any offense. I don't think he's great here. Would he be competent? Yeah, probably. But certainly not an ideal match. I thought he was perfect for Kelly's inside zone scheme, but he just doesn't have the speed and explosion for outside zone schemes, and Shanny only rolls about 15% of his runs through an inside zone. We don't need to bring someone like Williams along slowly. Running back is largely a plug and play position. It's by far the easiest position to transition to in the NFL (outside of kicker and punter) in my opinion.
_________________


Stupid NFL coaches and their need to reach for quarterbacks....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rudyZ


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 17037
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
Most people know that I love Hyde. He was my number one running back in that draft class, I'm an OSU fan, so my bias comes naturally with regards to him, and I've been a big proponent his actual skill, so obviously, I'm not going to be upset if we keep him.

That being said, if someone offers me a six for him, I will wish him well and take the 6th if we have already made the conscious decision that he's not a fit and we are likely moving on (though I would try for a fifth in the 2019 draft).

Is his skillset worth more than a 6th? Sure (though he can't stay healthy). But not really to us. I mean, what kind of value does one year of production in a lost season really have? Sure, we may not get a good player with that pick, but I'd take my chances. The idea of just going for the comp pick doesn't work with what I want either - I want us to be active in the next year free agency. I don't want to have any comp picks. It's not just Cousins that's out there.

I would also disagree that Hyde is a good fit for any offense. I don't think he's great here. Would he be competent? Yeah, probably. But certainly not an ideal match. I thought he was perfect for Kelly's inside zone scheme, but he just doesn't have the speed and explosion for outside zone schemes, and Shanny only rolls about 15% of his runs through an inside zone. We don't need to bring someone like Williams along slowly. Running back is largely a plug and play position. It's by far the easiest position to transition to in the NFL (outside of kicker and punter) in my opinion.



I strongly disagree! Kickers and punters seem to have a tough time transitioning to the NFL.
_________________


RudyZ's Power Rankings Power Ranking

1) RudyZ's Power Rankings Power Ranking
2) y2's pie Power Rankings (3.1416 rules!)
3) N4L's Poster Power Rankings
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
757-NINER


Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 1929
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
Most people know that I love Hyde. He was my number one running back in that draft class, I'm an OSU fan, so my bias comes naturally with regards to him, and I've been a big proponent his actual skill, so obviously, I'm not going to be upset if we keep him.

That being said, if someone offers me a six for him, I will wish him well and take the 6th if we have already made the conscious decision that he's not a fit and we are likely moving on (though I would try for a fifth in the 2019 draft).

Is his skillset worth more than a 6th? Sure (though he can't stay healthy). But not really to us. I mean, what kind of value does one year of production in a lost season really have? Sure, we may not get a good player with that pick, but I'd take my chances. The idea of just going for the comp pick doesn't work with what I want either - I want us to be active in the next year free agency. I don't want to have any comp picks. It's not just Cousins that's out there.

I would also disagree that Hyde is a good fit for any offense. I don't think he's great here. Would he be competent? Yeah, probably. But certainly not an ideal match. I thought he was perfect for Kelly's inside zone scheme, but he just doesn't have the speed and explosion for outside zone schemes, and Shanny only rolls about 15% of his runs through an inside zone. We don't need to bring someone like Williams along slowly. Running back is largely a plug and play position. It's by far the easiest position to transituion to in the NFL (outside of kicker and punter) in my opinion.


I disagree with alot of what your saying here. Hyde is more than capable of thriving in Shanny's zone-blocking scheme. Its all about reading the cut back lanes in zone blocking and Hyde is one of the better backs at cutting against the grain and finding seams. Shanny's running scheme isn't about speed and explosiveness from the RB position. Alfred Morris thrived early in his career in Shanny's run game and he doesn't have half the agility and wiggle Hyde has. Go down the list of all the late round RBs the elder Shanny made into productive NFL RBs in Denver. I'd argue outside of maybe Terrell Davis, Hyde has more natural ability than them all. Hyde will work just fine in this run scheme if the O-Line holds up their end.

I dont understand why ppl feel like Hyde needs to go. Hyde is still a young guy in this league. His best is yet to come. Let this season play out before ppl start to talk about Williams replacing Hyde. Let him or anyone else prove that Hyde is expendable first, before we just ship him off for some low round draft pick.


Last edited by 757-NINER on Sun May 07, 2017 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
J-ALL-DAY


Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 44879
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
Most people know that I love Hyde. He was my number one running back in that draft class, I'm an OSU fan, so my bias comes naturally with regards to him, and I've been a big proponent his actual skill, so obviously, I'm not going to be upset if we keep him.

That being said, if someone offers me a six for him, I will wish him well and take the 6th if we have already made the conscious decision that he's not a fit and we are likely moving on (though I would try for a fifth in the 2019 draft).

Is his skillset worth more than a 6th? Sure (though he can't stay healthy). But not really to us. I mean, what kind of value does one year of production in a lost season really have? Sure, we may not get a good player with that pick, but I'd take my chances. The idea of just going for the comp pick doesn't work with what I want either - I want us to be active in the next year free agency. I don't want to have any comp picks. It's not just Cousins that's out there.

I would also disagree that Hyde is a good fit for any offense. I don't think he's great here. Would he be competent? Yeah, probably. But certainly not an ideal match. I thought he was perfect for Kelly's inside zone scheme, but he just doesn't have the speed and explosion for outside zone schemes, and Shanny only rolls about 15% of his runs through an inside zone. We don't need to bring someone like Williams along slowly. Running back is largely a plug and play position. It's by far the easiest position to transition to in the NFL (outside of kicker and punter) in my opinion.


Take a 6th? HECKKKKKK no. He's too good of a talent and even if we let him walk, we could get a compensation pick of that value or even better.
_________________

El ramster on the sig
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 19069
Location: Las Vegas
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-ALL-DAY wrote:
Forge wrote:
Most people know that I love Hyde. He was my number one running back in that draft class, I'm an OSU fan, so my bias comes naturally with regards to him, and I've been a big proponent his actual skill, so obviously, I'm not going to be upset if we keep him.

That being said, if someone offers me a six for him, I will wish him well and take the 6th if we have already made the conscious decision that he's not a fit and we are likely moving on (though I would try for a fifth in the 2019 draft).

Is his skillset worth more than a 6th? Sure (though he can't stay healthy). But not really to us. I mean, what kind of value does one year of production in a lost season really have? Sure, we may not get a good player with that pick, but I'd take my chances. The idea of just going for the comp pick doesn't work with what I want either - I want us to be active in the next year free agency. I don't want to have any comp picks. It's not just Cousins that's out there.

I would also disagree that Hyde is a good fit for any offense. I don't think he's great here. Would he be competent? Yeah, probably. But certainly not an ideal match. I thought he was perfect for Kelly's inside zone scheme, but he just doesn't have the speed and explosion for outside zone schemes, and Shanny only rolls about 15% of his runs through an inside zone. We don't need to bring someone like Williams along slowly. Running back is largely a plug and play position. It's by far the easiest position to transition to in the NFL (outside of kicker and punter) in my opinion.


Take a 6th? HECKKKKKK no. He's too good of a talent and even if we let him walk, we could get a compensation pick of that value or even better.


No we wouldn't. You think someone is paying a constantly hurt running back big money? Look at the deals that were given out this year to running backs. He's likely taking a small committee back deal if he hits the market. Maybe at 3-4 million per? Plus, i want us to be reasonbly active on the free agent market...at least enough to wipe out the small contract he'd get (this year, that kind of deal would have been washed out by Malcom Smith, who is basically a backup linebacker). I find it very unlikely he's going to be here in 3 or 4 years, so what do i care what he gave us production wise in a year we finished 4-12? I'd take the sixth and give myself a chance on a player who may have a long term future here
_________________


Stupid NFL coaches and their need to reach for quarterbacks....


Last edited by Forge on Sun May 07, 2017 1:20 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 19069
Location: Las Vegas
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

757-NINER wrote:


I disagree with alot of what your saying here. Hyde is more than capable of thriving in Shanny's zone-blocking scheme. Its all about reading the cut back lanes in zone blocking and Hyde is one of the better backs at cutting against the grain and finding seams. Shanny's running scheme isn't about speed and explosivenhttps://youtu.be/zOYnT3Emehgess from the RB position. Alfred Morris thrived early in his career in Shanny's run game and he doesn't have half the agility and wiggle Hyde has. Go down the list of all the late round RBs the elder Shanny made into productive NFL RBs in Denver. I'd argue outside of maybe Terrell Davis, Hyde has more natural ability than them all. Hyde will work just fine in this run scheme if the O-Line holds up their end.

I dont understand why ppl feel like Hyde needs to go. Hyde is still a young guy in this league. His best is yet to come. Let this season play out before ppl start to talk about Williams replacing Hyde. Let him or anyone else prove that Hyde is expendable first, before we just ship him off for some low round draft pick.


I said he would be competent (or capable if you want to use your word), but no, I don't think this is the best fit for him and I don't think that he'll be great. But I never said he would be awful. I'd agree more with what you said if Hyde were a one cut and go runner, but he's not. He's a dancer. It's the biggest complaint you see niner fans give about him in the gameday threads. "I wish Hyde would stop dancing", "I wish Hyde would stop hesitating and just hit the hole". But that's not him. He likes the stutter step and the dancing.

I'm not in a hurry to get rid of Hyde, but I see no reason in keeping him either if I don't think that he's got a long term future with the team. I've been saying for 2 years now that I don't think that I would be able to give him a second contract. An injury prone running back who will be 26 at the start of the year (which, while not old, isn't exactly young for a running back, particularly one with his injury history) and doesn't avoid contact? I don't like the odds that ends well. So if I don't see long term viability, what use is his production in a lost season? Even if we keep him this year and he balls out, what are we going to do then, give him a big second contract because of the one big season in his contract year? At this point I treat paying him similar to giving a 35 year old pitcher a 5 year deal in baseball.

Also, we are basically talking about an around average starting NFL running back, so I'm not sure why everyone is so beholden to him. Sounds weird to say, but yeah, he's probably in that middle tier of running backs. Hyde or Lamar Miller? Hyde or Jay Ajayi? Is he better than either running back in Atlanta? I don't think you're going to find many non 49er fans taking him over Gurley. Jordan Howard? I think that would largely fall in favor of the Bear's running back. You can make cases for someone like Ingram over him based on past production and play, Spencer Ware too (especially factoring in Ware's work in the passing game). He's just in this big grouping of guys where you can really listen to valid arguments on either side. This is before you even get into the rookies. If all things were equal right now (contracts), Where do you think that Hyde would fall in a ranking of him, Fournette, Cook, Mixon?

You ask why are people so ready to get rid of him, and I ask why shouldn't I be if I don't think that there's a long term future there? Or if I don't want him long term? He's a fine player, but he's not special.
_________________


Stupid NFL coaches and their need to reach for quarterbacks....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 19694
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:


You ask why are people so ready to get rid of him, and I ask why shouldn't I be if I don't think that there's a long term future there? Or if I don't want him long term? He's a fine player, but he's not special.


the answer to your question is because he is a darn good back - when healthy. That latter represents a HUGE IF. But on talent alone, no way they should want to get rid of him. He was 14th in the league in rushing last year, which by itself is decent. But not a single back ahead of him had as few carries as he did. In fact his yards per carry were comfortably in the top 10 out of the top 20 guys in rushing yards. All of that was behind one of the poorer olines in the league and on a team without a passing game for the defense to have to worry asbout defeding. He's not a great pass catching threat but his 27 receptions isn't too shabby either. His health and his contract are worries for me, but his talent isn't.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 19069
Location: Las Vegas
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Forge wrote:


You ask why are people so ready to get rid of him, and I ask why shouldn't I be if I don't think that there's a long term future there? Or if I don't want him long term? He's a fine player, but he's not special.


the answer to your question is because he is a darn good back - when healthy. That latter represents a HUGE IF. But on talent alone, no way they should want to get rid of him. He was 14th in the league in rushing last year, which by itself is decent. But not a single back ahead of him had as few carries as he did. In fact his yards per carry were comfortably in the top 10 out of the top 20 guys in rushing yards. All of that was behind one of the poorer olines in the league and on a team without a passing game for the defense to have to worry asbout defeding. He's not a great pass catching threat but his 27 receptions isn't too shabby either. His health and his contract are worries for me, but his talent isn't.


That really isn't the answer though, given that I have already addressed his skill level. "Darn Good Back" is questionable. He belongs in a tier of running backs that is quite large, and ranges from "above average" to decidedly average. He's certainly not better than the likes of DJ, Shady, Zeke, Bell. I'd include Demarco in that group as well. Most people aren't taking him over Gurley (though obviously, hard to be impressed with Gurley last year given that offensive line problem). So that is 6 off the bat. Then you have a list that includes the likes of:

Devonta Freeman
Tevin Coleman
Jay Ajayi
Spencer Ware
Mark Ingram
Jordan Howard
CJ Anderson
Melvin Gordon
Lamar Miller
What about Gio Bernard? He doesn't run the ball as much, but he's been about as effective at it throughout his career, and adds more in the receiving game.

I'm not saying he's better or worse than any or all of those guys, but I think an argument could certainly be made that they were in which you would have to listen. Then you have the unknown guys:

Marshawn Lynch
AP

Those guys, if they are still them, are both better than Hyde...but I don't know if they are still them. And I'm willing to be that most people, even if all things were equal (IE, contracts) would take Fournette and maybe Cook over Hyde. I mean, it's a big, wide open tier. Hyde simply isn't super special.

Also, while the stats you posted are factual, they are also buoyed heavily by an outlier game against the Jets that probably doesn't have great odds of repeating. Take that single game out, he's under 4 yards per carry (but right around that mark, which is much more in line with his career) and 800 yards rushing. And that game can't be seen as anything more than an outlier given the rest of his game by game production and the fact that the long runs that would produce those type of games typically are not a strength of his given his lack of breakaway speed. (He's had a grand total of a whopping 3 games in his career where he's had at least one rush of 30 yards).

But then, at the end of your post...you come to main point. Injuries and contract. If you give him a new contract, you're giving it to a guy who will be 27 the first year of his deal, and doesn't have a great history of staying healthy. You want to give a new contract to that guy? For someone who isn't bad, but isn't great? For what purpose? What kind of long term forecast do you project there? 27 isn't old, but it's certainly not young. Does the possibility of a single good year in a season where we aren't going anywhere mean so much that we would't just take a late round pick and try to acquire a guy that has a realistic shot of being here in even 3 years? And how good of a year are we expecting here, because I tihnk that there's a cap on his market share of the running back activity this year. I wouldn't be shocked if he only gets about 200 carries and plays all 16 games. I would expect Williams, Hightower and even Juice Check to eat into his carries by a good chunk.

Now, if you're in favor of re-signing him, then it makes sense that you wouldn't unload him for something cheap. But in my case, I've been saying for a while now that he's not the guy i can give a second contract too and I'm thinking the FO is thinking the same (I can say that if and only if the rumors of us shopping him were true). So yeah, if the Lions were interested, I'd probably try for a late round pick or two, and send him on his way.
_________________


Stupid NFL coaches and their need to reach for quarterbacks....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
J-ALL-DAY


Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 44879
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And you talk about Gurley's bad OL as if our OL has been better in the run game? By almost every site we have been bottom three the last two years and #31 by FO. The last six games of the year he had 545 yards on 95 carries (5.7 YPC). As for taking out the Jets game? Well, take out the Cards game where he had 14 yards on 13 carries and he ends up with a 4.8 YPC for the season running behind a top 3 worst OL in the game.

So yeah, I'll take my chances on this guy. Injuries will always be a concern but I'm not getting rid of him for a 6th. Maybe he stays on the team past this year or maybe not, but a 6th is not worth it. If he has a good season or say a similar one from last year where he misses a couple of games but gets close to a 1,000 yards, a team giving him a 2 year 12 million deal is out of the realm of possibility?
_________________

El ramster on the sig
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> San Francisco 49ers All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 86, 87, 88, 89  Next
Page 87 of 89

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group