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TB 1


Joined: 16 Apr 2017
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
gah112 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Because common sense means that you cannot bank on Glennon being good enough to keep you job.

Because the stud CB won't do anything for us if Glennon flops. Ask JJ Watt.


JJ Watt's made the playoffs for 2 straight seasons. Meanwhile franchise QBs like Brees, Luck, and Rivers were sitting home.


Bingo.

Look at Joe Flacco man... can't do a damned thing without a top 10 defense. Franchise QBs are nice, but you need a team around them.



Also look at Rodgers. His only Super Bowl win was when the Packers defense had a great season and allowed 240 points.
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gah112


Joined: 30 Jan 2015
Posts: 796
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Add Matt Ryan to the list - considered a pretty average QB until this season when the Falcons surrounded him with a great supporting cast.
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TB 1


Joined: 16 Apr 2017
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
G08 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
G08 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
If you draft Watson I think Pace gets a guaranteed 3 years

2017-Glennon
2018-Watson's first year starting with growing pains
2019-Watson's 2nd season would be huge for him


Pace is under contract through the 19-20 season.

I don't think it's a huge stretch for him to build this defense, give Glennon a shot for 2017, and then if he sucks go after your QB in 2018 and unleash him in 2019.


5 years before we see his hand picked QB hit the field.

He will need a contract extension before then.

Are you comfortable extending him without seeing what he has done with his hand picked QB?

Are you comfortable allowing him to mortgage future picks to move up and get the QB he wants?


I'm just saying, don't be surprised if he wants to build the defense and offense for 2017, roll with Glennon/Sanchez, and if Glennon bombs he can draft his QB in the 2018 draft and either start the kid then, or give him a year to simmer and then unleash him in his (Pace's) final year under contract.

This also gives him the ability to fire Fox after this season, hire someone new, and let THAT head coach handpick his QB.


We are in a position this season to potentially pick whichever QB we want. Not get the 3rd QB or the one other teams pass on.

That is an opportunity.


Or we wait till 2018 and hear all about how Pace "tried" to trade up for Rosen but couldn't.


I agree that Pace should take the risk and go QB since he can chose the top rated QB. Also I don't know if Jonathan Allen is really an elite DL that you build a defense around.
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6761
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are our biggest needs, in order of importance? (I ask the floor)
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allowed 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 16322
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. QB
2. S
3. DE
4. CB
5. WR
6. TE
7. OT

The first 2 for me are critical needs.
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John Fox
3-13 this season, 9-23 overall, 4-12 at home
Pathetic
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 16322
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TB 1 wrote:
G08 wrote:
gah112 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Because common sense means that you cannot bank on Glennon being good enough to keep you job.

Because the stud CB won't do anything for us if Glennon flops. Ask JJ Watt.


JJ Watt's made the playoffs for 2 straight seasons. Meanwhile franchise QBs like Brees, Luck, and Rivers were sitting home.


Bingo.

Look at Joe Flacco man... can't do a damned thing without a top 10 defense. Franchise QBs are nice, but you need a team around them.



Also look at Rodgers. His only Super Bowl win was when the Packers defense had a great season and allowed 240 points.


Of course you need a team around a QB.

But the QB is the difficult one to find. All other positions can be signed in free agency or drafted all over the draft.

You have a QB or you don't win. Great QBs, Flacco as the exception, win Super Bowls with their good teams. The Bears could have a great team QBed by Glennon and are not winning anything.
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John Fox
3-13 this season, 9-23 overall, 4-12 at home
Pathetic
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Epyon


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 423
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
1. QB
2. S
3. DE
4. CB
5. WR
6. TE
7. OT

The first 2 for me are critical needs.


I'd add RB2 to that list, I have no confidence in Langford or Carey at this point, and I don't want to test my luck drastically upping Howard's workload.

I'd also have a swing NT/DE defensive line depth guy on the list as a need as well.
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6761
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

QB
DE/5T
CB
S
OT
WR
TE


I dunno, I can come up with 50 billion different scenarios. I don't want to think about this anymore Laughing
_________________
topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allowed 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 3246
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
gah112 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Because common sense means that you cannot bank on Glennon being good enough to keep you job.

Because the stud CB won't do anything for us if Glennon flops. Ask JJ Watt.


JJ Watt's made the playoffs for 2 straight seasons. Meanwhile franchise QBs like Brees, Luck, and Rivers were sitting home.


Bingo.

Look at Joe Flacco man... can't do a damned thing without a top 10 defense. Franchise QBs are nice, but you need a team around them.


That doesn't really hold much weight. JJ played 3 games last year. while putting up under 10 tackles. They made the playoffs without him.

If anything, it shows that even the arguably most important and talented defensive player is replaceable. Not that QBs have less value.

Also Brees has won a Super Bowl with garbage defenses year in and year out, Luck carried an overrated Colts to the AFC Championship, etc.
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2013 Kyle Long Rookie of the Year Award

Adopt a Bear - Kyle Long (Two Season Streak)
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6761
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugashane wrote:
G08 wrote:
gah112 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Because common sense means that you cannot bank on Glennon being good enough to keep you job.

Because the stud CB won't do anything for us if Glennon flops. Ask JJ Watt.


JJ Watt's made the playoffs for 2 straight seasons. Meanwhile franchise QBs like Brees, Luck, and Rivers were sitting home.


Bingo.

Look at Joe Flacco man... can't do a damned thing without a top 10 defense. Franchise QBs are nice, but you need a team around them.


That doesn't really hold much weight. JJ played 3 games last year. while putting up under 10 tackles. They made the playoffs without him.

If anything, it shows that even the arguably most important and talented defensive player is replaceable. Not that QBs have less value.

Also Brees has won a Super Bowl with garbage defenses year in and year out, Luck carried an overrated Colts to the AFC Championship, etc.


Bro, the year the Saints won the Super Bowl, they had the #7 ranked defense and #11 ranked offense.

Brees had his lowest rating in 9 seasons that year.
_________________
topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allowed 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7


Last edited by G08 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 3246
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TB 1 wrote:
Also look at Rodgers. His only Super Bowl win was when the Packers defense had a great season and allowed 240 points.


And with a crap defense he has still owned the NFC North for the majority of his years as a starter.
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2013 Kyle Long Rookie of the Year Award

Adopt a Bear - Kyle Long (Two Season Streak)
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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 3246
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
G08 wrote:
gah112 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Because common sense means that you cannot bank on Glennon being good enough to keep you job.

Because the stud CB won't do anything for us if Glennon flops. Ask JJ Watt.


JJ Watt's made the playoffs for 2 straight seasons. Meanwhile franchise QBs like Brees, Luck, and Rivers were sitting home.


Bingo.

Look at Joe Flacco man... can't do a damned thing without a top 10 defense. Franchise QBs are nice, but you need a team around them.


That doesn't really hold much weight. JJ played 3 games last year. while putting up under 10 tackles. They made the playoffs without him.

If anything, it shows that even the arguably most important and talented defensive player is replaceable. Not that QBs have less value.

Also Brees has won a Super Bowl with garbage defenses year in and year out, Luck carried an overrated Colts to the AFC Championship, etc.


Bro, the year the Saints won the Super Bowl, they had the #7 ranked defense and #11 ranked offense.

Brees had his lowest rating in 9 seasons that year.


Are you looking at postseason? lol Seriously though. They were 20th in points against and gave up the 8th most yards in the 2009 season. 2010 Super Bowl was from the 2009 season.

Brees also had a 109.6 QBR, his career best...

They've been in the top 10 scoring 9 out of the last 11 years. Top 6 in years EVERY year, was first in yards 6 times, etc.
_________________
2013 Kyle Long Rookie of the Year Award

Adopt a Bear - Kyle Long (Two Season Streak)
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gah112


Joined: 30 Jan 2015
Posts: 796
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original point under dispute is that "a stud CB won't do anything for the Bears if Glennon flops." Watt was presented as an example in support of that statement. It's obviously untrue.

The Bears generally lack talent and impact players. They likely won't be able to address all of their needs with just this draft. Passing on a QB at 3 doesn't preclude them from addressing the position. It's fine if they identify a guy who's worth the pick. What's wrong is forcing the pick because of ideas like the one above.
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AZBearsFan


Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 13107
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
G08 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
G08 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
If you draft Watson I think Pace gets a guaranteed 3 years

2017-Glennon
2018-Watson's first year starting with growing pains
2019-Watson's 2nd season would be huge for him


Pace is under contract through the 19-20 season.

I don't think it's a huge stretch for him to build this defense, give Glennon a shot for 2017, and then if he sucks go after your QB in 2018 and unleash him in 2019.


5 years before we see his hand picked QB hit the field.

He will need a contract extension before then.

Are you comfortable extending him without seeing what he has done with his hand picked QB?

Are you comfortable allowing him to mortgage future picks to move up and get the QB he wants?


I'm just saying, don't be surprised if he wants to build the defense and offense for 2017, roll with Glennon/Sanchez, and if Glennon bombs he can draft his QB in the 2018 draft and either start the kid then, or give him a year to simmer and then unleash him in his (Pace's) final year under contract.

This also gives him the ability to fire Fox after this season, hire someone new, and let THAT head coach handpick his QB.


We are in a position this season to potentially pick whichever QB we want. Not get the 3rd QB or the one other teams pass on.

That is an opportunity.


Or we wait till 2018 and hear all about how Pace "tried" to trade up for Rosen but couldn't.

This really highlights for me an issue I have with the "Wait for next year's QBs" crowd specifically while we are picking at 3. Does anyone figure us in 2017 for less than 5 wins or more than 8 wins? Pretty much where we fall. In that scenario we are picking somewhere between like 8 and 18 in which case we aren't getting QB1. We MIGHT get QB3 without mortgaging the draft. Maybe.

In that light, we can't be valuing our QBOC in this year's draft against next year's QBOC. We need to be valuing this year's QBOC against the "top QB" who shows some warts next year during the season and leading up to the draft while remaining a top QB prospect (the 2018 Watson). Or, we're getting next year's 1-year wonder with the same inexperience questions (the 2018 Trubisky). We aren't then getting a better QB prospect in 2018 than 2017 - we are getting the same caliber prospect as this year's QB1 a year further down the road. For a team trying to be on the upswing that just doesn't make sense to me.

If next year is a 3rd rebuild year and most think it probably is then would you rather go into the 2018 offseason with your future QB ready to go but still needing a safety or 5T, or vise versa? Provided whoever you pick hits (and all players are drafted under the assumption they'll be successful), which one gets you closer to the championship sooner? I think it's without question the route that puts the QB on the roster now, and if you happen to catch a Russell Wilson over Matt Flynn situation out of it then that's all the better. I also think any QB we take at 3 plays once he's proven at least an equal to Glennon, which isn't exactly a tall mountain to climb (insert Mike Glennon height joke here).
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6761
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugashane wrote:
G08 wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
G08 wrote:
gah112 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Because common sense means that you cannot bank on Glennon being good enough to keep you job.

Because the stud CB won't do anything for us if Glennon flops. Ask JJ Watt.


JJ Watt's made the playoffs for 2 straight seasons. Meanwhile franchise QBs like Brees, Luck, and Rivers were sitting home.


Bingo.

Look at Joe Flacco man... can't do a damned thing without a top 10 defense. Franchise QBs are nice, but you need a team around them.


That doesn't really hold much weight. JJ played 3 games last year. while putting up under 10 tackles. They made the playoffs without him.

If anything, it shows that even the arguably most important and talented defensive player is replaceable. Not that QBs have less value.

Also Brees has won a Super Bowl with garbage defenses year in and year out, Luck carried an overrated Colts to the AFC Championship, etc.


Bro, the year the Saints won the Super Bowl, they had the #7 ranked defense and #11 ranked offense.

Brees had his lowest rating in 9 seasons that year.


Are you looking at postseason? lol Seriously though. They were 20th in points against and gave up the 8th most yards in the 2009 season. 2010 Super Bowl was from the 2009 season.

Brees also had a 109.6 QBR, his career best...

They've been in the top 10 scoring 9 out of the last 11 years. Top 6 in years EVERY year, was first in yards 6 times, etc.


You're absolutely right, I was looking at 2010, my bad!
_________________
topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allowed 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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