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The Defense: How bad has it been? Well, it could be worse...
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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Posts: 18742
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
the Redskins began to suck defensively when Mike Shanahan took over personnel decisions in 2010. We all expected it to get better when McCloughan took over in 2015 but it hasn't, arguably our defense has regressed form the 2012, 2013 & 2014 defenses that Shanahan, Allen and Haz put together to today.


Umm, three things:

1. What Shanahan did in 2010 was bring in the 3-4. That meant that all of those pieces we had invested in were essentially jettisoned because they didn't fit. Sure, we kept some of them around and yes some of them were probably getting too long in the tooth, but at it's core, the main difference between 2000-2009 and 2010-current is the base defense. Even though we spend most of our time in the nickel, we draft and acquire talent from a 3-4 perspective, and then wonder why it doesn't work when we have to play four man fronts.

2. Given that 2014 was the second worst performance of our defense during the Snyder era, I think it's somewhat of a cheap to say "well, look, McCloughan didn't fix the defense in the two years he was here!" Again, look at the track record from 2011 to 2014

-1.2%
1.8%
4.2%
9.9%

It was trending the wrong way long before McCloughan got here. While 2015 and 2016 are not one would call good, they were better than the low water mark of the 2014 defense.

3. If you want to shed the idea of you being a "McCloughan hater," you might want to avoid taking pot shots out of left field by bringing up names that no one else mentions.
Fair enough, I didn't check out every stat you posted, I just knew it had been trending poorly since 2010 and in 2010 I'd say it had to do with the switch to the 3-4, but ever since I'd disagree. In 2011 we were a top 15 defense and trending in the right direction until Carriker then Orakpo (reinjured his pec) and then Bowen all got hurt in 2012.

I'd be interested to know what the ranking of the 2014 defense was before Hall, Cofield and Orakpo got hurt. My feeling is that the defense was at least average until 3 of our top 5 players on that defense got hurt.

I'm sure it's two much work to find that out, I wouldn't ask you to and I'm Not going to do it but food for thought.

The only reason I brought up Scot was because it was a thing that all of Redskins Nation had wood like an oak tree after he was hired about our defense finally being fixed and getting back to a top 10 D, and I'm sorry for being honest, but it didn't happen and yes, it could have through just the draft, without even spending tens of millions of $ on it like we did in 04.

I know I expected an 04 type of offseason for our defense in 2015. Sadly, it didn't happen. Sad
He spent 2016 draft picks: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 2015 draft picks: 2nd, 5th, 6th, & another 6th on the defense. You always whine that McCloughan didn't spend draft picks on the defense. He did.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
the Redskins began to suck defensively when Mike Shanahan took over personnel decisions in 2010. We all expected it to get better when McCloughan took over in 2015 but it hasn't, arguably our defense has regressed form the 2012, 2013 & 2014 defenses that Shanahan, Allen and Haz put together to today.


Umm, three things:

1. What Shanahan did in 2010 was bring in the 3-4. That meant that all of those pieces we had invested in were essentially jettisoned because they didn't fit. Sure, we kept some of them around and yes some of them were probably getting too long in the tooth, but at it's core, the main difference between 2000-2009 and 2010-current is the base defense. Even though we spend most of our time in the nickel, we draft and acquire talent from a 3-4 perspective, and then wonder why it doesn't work when we have to play four man fronts.

2. Given that 2014 was the second worst performance of our defense during the Snyder era, I think it's somewhat of a cheap to say "well, look, McCloughan didn't fix the defense in the two years he was here!" Again, look at the track record from 2011 to 2014

-1.2%
1.8%
4.2%
9.9%

It was trending the wrong way long before McCloughan got here. While 2015 and 2016 are not one would call good, they were better than the low water mark of the 2014 defense.

3. If you want to shed the idea of you being a "McCloughan hater," you might want to avoid taking pot shots out of left field by bringing up names that no one else mentions.
Fair enough, I didn't check out every stat you posted, I just knew it had been trending poorly since 2010 and in 2010 I'd say it had to do with the switch to the 3-4, but ever since I'd disagree. In 2011 we were a top 15 defense and trending in the right direction until Carriker then Orakpo (reinjured his pec) and then Bowen all got hurt in 2012.

I'd be interested to know what the ranking of the 2014 defense was before Hall, Cofield and Orakpo got hurt. My feeling is that the defense was at least average until 3 of our top 5 players on that defense got hurt.

I'm sure it's two much work to find that out, I wouldn't ask you to and I'm Not going to do it but food for thought.


Actually, it was included in the original post. The weighted DVOA puts more emphasis on the later games in the season so it takes into account (in a coarse way). The Adjusted Games Lost value that HTTRG3Dynasty mentioned does that in a more fine-grained way, but I could not find data for what the values were beyond 2016 (when the defensive AGL was 31st) and 2015 (32nd). So, I'm not sure I would put all of the burden on the loss of those players since we had just as many defensive injuries the past two years.

2011
- Overall: -1.2% (14th)
- Weighted: 1.8% (18th)
2012
- Overall: 1.8% (17th)
- Weighted: -2.0% (13th)
2013
- Overall: 4.2% (21st)
- Weighted: -0.1% (17th)
2014
- Overall: 9.9% (27th)
- Weighted: 13.5% (30th)

So, yes, it slipped in 2014. However, the difference from 2013's overall to 2014's (5.7 points) was less than the overall to weighted inside of 2014 (3.6 points).

Quote:
The only reason I brought up Scot was because it was a thing that all of Redskins Nation had wood like an oak tree after he was hired about our defense finally being fixed and getting back to a top 10 D, and I'm sorry for being honest, but it didn't happen and yes, it could have through just the draft, without even spending tens of millions of $ on it like we did in 04.

I know I expected an 04 type of offseason for our defense in 2015. Sadly, it didn't happen. Sad


Ignoring the crassness of the lead in to the bolded comment, I think you are projecting your own desires on the fanbase as a whole. Speaking only for myself, I saw Scot McCloughan as someone who start looking at this team's construction in the future. While I hoped it would include improvements in the defense, I knew it wouldn't happen overnight. While there were decisions that I decried at the time, I understood that there was a plan in place.

I look back at the free spending days of the past decade and think "that is not something we should emulate again." It didn't work for the long term health of the franchise. Instead it put us in cap purgatory where we had to regularly shuffle contracts for older veterans to stay in compliance. So, I was not upset about us not going hog wild for lots of free agents like we did in 2003 and 2004 because history says it doesn't work. Before you point to the Giants, I would direct you to read the AGL article that HTTRG3Dynasty posted above because the Giants were racked with injuries these past few years ... until last year. Before we say "well it worked for New York!" let's see how it goes over the next couple of years.

So, the low key free agent moves didn't bother me (Norman doesn't count because he became available well after free agency started, but it showed that the front office would splurge for the right guy). Even the low-risk, low-reward trade for Goldson didn't bother me. Yes, he had a high salary but we had plenty of cap room as it was and it was attempt to fix a position with limited investment. No, it didn't work, but had Kyshoen Jarrett not suffered that career ending injury, we would barely even mention it. As it was, we shifted around a sixth round pick.

We've discussed his draft picks ad nauseum. I liked some moves, didn't like others. Some have panned out, some have not.

At the end of the day, my problem is that I feel like we're back to watching a franchise without a plan for success. I do not believe Bruce Allen can run the franchise competently. I do not believe he will look further than one year ahead, but instead will just react to whatever crisis of his making bubbles over.
Turtle used to want to build through the draft and cut back on free agency too until it didn't fit his hating on McCloughan narrative.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Any chance they are sneakily going back to a 4-3 this season?

Terelle McClain & Stacy McGee. Two guys who played 4-3 DT for their prior teams. Not exactly great fits as 3-4 DEs.

Zach Brown. A guy with experience playing LBer in a 4-3. In fact, if Cravens refuses to play Lber, Brown would be an ideal WLB in a 4-3, a guy we really didn't have if we wanted to make the switch.

Then look at the moves we didn't make.

We didn't retain Chris Baker, the best 3-4 Dlineman we had.

We haven't done anything at NT. But a guy like McGee could fill that role in a 4-3.
The defense we run is a hybrid. So, like the last two years we will have some 3-4 and some 4-3 looks.

Our DL plays the gaps like this:

- One DE two-gaps as a 5 technique like in a traditional 3-4
- The other DE one gaps as a 3 technique and shoots that gap
- The NT plays the one technique and shoots that gap

We have been forced to play a 4-2-5 2/3 of the game or so since 2013 because of how much the league throws the ball now, which has hurt our run defense because we don't have traditional 280 to 290 pound 4-3 DEs. We are forced to play 270 pound OLBs as DEs - who get abused in the run game as DEs - and we only have 2 traditional linebackers on the field for 2/3 of the game which hurts our run defense and defending running backs out of the backfield.


Once more with feeling, Woz!

If we have to run a 4-2-5 2/3s or more a game because of how much the league throws the ball, why continue to select talent as if the franchise runs a 3-4 most of the game? Instead of forcing underweight outside linebackers down in the trenches, why not get honest-to-goodness defensive ends who fit a four man front?

In short, why not adjust to what you actually do instead of some Platonic ideal of what you want to do?

If they are going to move to a more traditional 4-3 or a base 4-2-5 hybrid (with Cravens playing the joker safety), then MKnight82 is right: signing McClain and McGee make sense.

Even if you are correct that we have a 5-tech, a 3-tech, and a 1-tech (*), we're still short a tech. And in all likelihood, that is the 1-tech which is the single most important position in the 3-4 front. The problem is (say it with me now) there are only so many men in the world that can play a 1-tech. This is basic supply and demand.




(*) Incidentally, how does that work?


For the purposes of this, let's ignore the TE and the C-gaps because that's going to have to be the responsibility of the linebackers. Further, let's put the the 5-tech opposite the right tackle and right guard and is responsible for the right side B and A gaps. So, he's lined up face to face with the right tackle, but responsible for the gap between the gap guard and center. The 1 tech is lined up between the center and the left guard, and the 3 tech is lined up just off the right shoulder of the left guard.

If the center crashes on the 1-tech with the left guard, and the left tackle takes on the 3-tech, the right guard can assist the right tackle and blow a ginormous hole up the middle. Alternatively, the center can take on the 1-tech directly, let the guard take the 3-tech and the left tackle can go merrily wreak havoc at the second level. Or maybe the right guard goes sprinting up field, leaving the right tackle one-on-one with the 5-tech and maybe the guard/center/left tackle all dealing with the other two.

Oh, you move a linebacker down between them? Okay, then. But how does a 250-270 lbs linebacker deal with the fact that there is a 300+ lb lineman coming up at them? Isn't that just the very problem you identified earlier?
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Woz


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
He spent 2016 draft picks: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 2015 draft picks: 2nd, 5th, 6th, & another 6th on the defense. You always whine that McCloughan didn't spend draft picks on the defense. He did.


To be fair, it is also where he didn't spend on defense (2015 1st Scherff over Williams, trading out of 2016 4th when Billings was there). Those were my biggest complaints (a lesser one being Matt Jones in the 2015 3rd).
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
He spent 2016 draft picks: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 2015 draft picks: 2nd, 5th, 6th, & another 6th on the defense. You always whine that McCloughan didn't spend draft picks on the defense. He did.


To be fair, it is also where he didn't spend on defense (2015 1st Scherff over Williams, trading out of 2016 4th when Billings was there). Those were my biggest complaints (a lesser one being Matt Jones in the 2015 3rd).
To be fair, those picks helped us become a top 10 offense in the NFL.
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lavar703


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haslett and Barry were major, major issues. I'm willing to bet the defense will improve simply due to Barry's departure. Brown, Galette, Swearinger and if Breeland bounces back will all be extremely helpful for this defense. I'm not counting on the two DL we signed for anything but if we can get Wormley or Adams in the second that will certainly be a positive.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, in 2014 the Redskins defense started off pretty well when healthy - of course their opponents left a lot to be desired on offense, Hou & Jax - but when Cofield, Hall and Orakpo were healthy for week 1 they only gave up
17 pts and played strong against the run. Cofield hurt his ankle week 1 though and was lost for weeks 2-10. Hall was lost I believe in the 2nd q of week 3. Then Orakpo was lost in the 1st half of week 7.

With all of them together they only gave up 17 pts vs the Texans.

With Hall and Orakpo healthy in week 2 they only gave up 10 points to the Jags. That's the game Kerrigan faced two RTs and got 4 sacks and those RTs cut the next week because they played so awful against him.

With Orakpo healthy and Hall for 1/2 of the Philly game the Redskins gave up 20 points in the first half. They were winning that game in the second half - despite losing Hall in the 2nd quarter of that game and for the season to a torn Achilles - until Cousins threw his 2nd half interception which the Eagles turned into points.

As far as Cofield goes, I forgot how little he played in 2014 and how much we missed him, particularly against the run. Like I said with him healthy - despite the broken hand - our defense was strong against the run in week 1 vs the Texans. In fact, I remember our defense playing well that whole game except for the Rambo blown assignment which led to a TD. So Cofield only started 3 games all year. Week 1, and then week 12 & 13. I don't remember him getting hurt vs the colts but perhaps he did because he really didn't play much the rest of the season. He certainly didn't start in weeks 14-17 or in December. I guess the writing was on the wall the for his future release which came in March of 2015 when we signed RJF and eventually Knighton.

What sucks IMO is that Cofield would have been a perfect fit for our current scheme as a 1 technique NT but we chose to go with Knighton instead who was out of shape and not a great fit for the scheme because of it. I think McCloughan knew this before signing him and that's why he didn't want to vomit long term to him.

So anyways, with all 3 of them in a very small sample size we gave up 17 points to the Texans.

With Orakpo and Hall we gave up an avg of 19 ppg in weeks 1 & 2 and half of week 3.

With Orakpo and neither of the other two we gave up 26 ppg from weeks 4-7.

With Hall and Orakpo out for the year in 2014 and Cofield barely playing from week gave 11-17 we gave up 31 ppg.

Maybe not an exact science but pretty clear we missed 3 of our 5 best player on defense when they were out.
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
the Redskins began to suck defensively when Mike Shanahan took over personnel decisions in 2010. We all expected it to get better when McCloughan took over in 2015 but it hasn't, arguably our defense has regressed form the 2012, 2013 & 2014 defenses that Shanahan, Allen and Haz put together to today.


Umm, three things:

1. What Shanahan did in 2010 was bring in the 3-4. That meant that all of those pieces we had invested in were essentially jettisoned because they didn't fit. Sure, we kept some of them around and yes some of them were probably getting too long in the tooth, but at it's core, the main difference between 2000-2009 and 2010-current is the base defense. Even though we spend most of our time in the nickel, we draft and acquire talent from a 3-4 perspective, and then wonder why it doesn't work when we have to play four man fronts.

2. Given that 2014 was the second worst performance of our defense during the Snyder era, I think it's somewhat of a cheap to say "well, look, McCloughan didn't fix the defense in the two years he was here!" Again, look at the track record from 2011 to 2014

-1.2%
1.8%
4.2%
9.9%

It was trending the wrong way long before McCloughan got here. While 2015 and 2016 are not one would call good, they were better than the low water mark of the 2014 defense.

3. If you want to shed the idea of you being a "McCloughan hater," you might want to avoid taking pot shots out of left field by bringing up names that no one else mentions.


Thank you Woz. That's the first thing that jumped out at me.

Part of my profession is diagnosing complex systems. One thing you take note of is change in performance.

Once you've diagnosed that change in performance, you then ask "What has changed in the environment".

What caused us to drop from a great/pretty good, defense to one that is essentially a doormat each year?

The switch to the 3-4. We keep getting "tweeners" that we want to switch over to our 3-4 base. But then we play nickel alot and 4-3 sometimes and wonder why our guys who aren't studs in a 4-3 and are tweeners (which is why we drafted them to play in the 3-4) can't handle it.

I think we need to seriously go back to the 4-3 and actually start drafting players who can play it. This way when we go to nickel its not a big change from our base package
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:

If we have to run a 4-2-5 2/3s or more a game because of how much the league throws the ball, why continue to select talent as if the franchise runs a 3-4 most of the game? Instead of forcing underweight outside linebackers down in the trenches, why not get honest-to-goodness defensive ends who fit a four man front?

In short, why not adjust to what you actually do instead of some Platonic ideal of what you want to do?


FINALLY, SOMEONE GETS IT!!!
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who was the last SB winning team to run a 3-4? Was it the Ravens in 2012-13?
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
the Redskins began to suck defensively when Mike Shanahan took over personnel decisions in 2010. We all expected it to get better when McCloughan took over in 2015 but it hasn't, arguably our defense has regressed form the 2012, 2013 & 2014 defenses that Shanahan, Allen and Haz put together to today.


Umm, three things:

1. What Shanahan did in 2010 was bring in the 3-4. That meant that all of those pieces we had invested in were essentially jettisoned because they didn't fit. Sure, we kept some of them around and yes some of them were probably getting too long in the tooth, but at it's core, the main difference between 2000-2009 and 2010-current is the base defense. Even though we spend most of our time in the nickel, we draft and acquire talent from a 3-4 perspective, and then wonder why it doesn't work when we have to play four man fronts.

2. Given that 2014 was the second worst performance of our defense during the Snyder era, I think it's somewhat of a cheap to say "well, look, McCloughan didn't fix the defense in the two years he was here!" Again, look at the track record from 2011 to 2014

-1.2%
1.8%
4.2%
9.9%

It was trending the wrong way long before McCloughan got here. While 2015 and 2016 are not one would call good, they were better than the low water mark of the 2014 defense.

3. If you want to shed the idea of you being a "McCloughan hater," you might want to avoid taking pot shots out of left field by bringing up names that no one else mentions.
Fair enough, I didn't check out every stat you posted, I just knew it had been trending poorly since 2010 and in 2010 I'd say it had to do with the switch to the 3-4, but ever since I'd disagree. In 2011 we were a top 15 defense and trending in the right direction until Carriker then Orakpo (reinjured his pec) and then Bowen all got hurt in 2012.

I'd be interested to know what the ranking of the 2014 defense was before Hall, Cofield and Orakpo got hurt. My feeling is that the defense was at least average until 3 of our top 5 players on that defense got hurt.

I'm sure it's two much work to find that out, I wouldn't ask you to and I'm Not going to do it but food for thought.

The only reason I brought up Scot was because it was a thing that all of Redskins Nation had wood like an oak tree after he was hired about our defense finally being fixed and getting back to a top 10 D, and I'm sorry for being honest, but it didn't happen and yes, it could have through just the draft, without even spending tens of millions of $ on it like we did in 04.

I know I expected an 04 type of offseason for our defense in 2015. Sadly, it didn't happen. Sad
He spent 2016 draft picks: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 2015 draft picks: 2nd, 5th, 6th, & another 6th on the defense. You always whine that McCloughan didn't spend draft picks on the defense. He did.
Yeah, so did Cerrato. Not comparing the two "football intelligence wise" but saying that passing on better prospects - both of whom played DL which you by the way have whined about since 2012 - was not a wise move. Especially when in your 1st press conference you state that we are going to get bigger and stronger, we want to dominate the line of scrimmage. We want football players and we want to make teams know after the game that they played the Redskins.

Honestly, anything about the last two years say that to you?

Take the McCloughan glasses off - just like everyone tells me to take the burgundy and gold homer glasses off - and answer objectively.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Who was the last SB winning team to run a 3-4? Was it the Ravens in 2012-13?
Denver, and NE plays a hybrid of the two. Coincidentally, both the 49ers & Ravens ran a 3-4 in the 2012-13 super bowl.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Who was the last SB winning team to run a 3-4? Was it the Ravens in 2012-13?
Denver, and NE plays a hybrid of the two. Coincidentally, both the 49ers & Ravens ran a 3-4 in the 2012-13 super bowl.


Yea, forgot about Denver.

Though Wade Phillips is much more creative than any 3-4 DC we've had here.
Quote:

Back for a second run as Broncos’ coordinator, Phillips has implemented his version of the 3-4 defense that simplifies the duties and exploits the depth and weapons on his roster. It’s a system that is adaptable, and one that his players have embraced.

“We try to fit what the players can do in the defense rather than saying, ‘OK, we’re a 4-3 or we’re a two-gap 3-4,’ ” Phillips said. “We’re a team where if a guy can stunt and rush the passer, we let him do that. If a guy is a power guy, we try to let him be that. It’s all what individual players can do.”


http://www.denverpost.com/2016/02/07/for-wade-phillips-broncos-3-4-defense-and-one-gap-equals-dominance/
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Any chance they are sneakily going back to a 4-3 this season?

Terelle McClain & Stacy McGee. Two guys who played 4-3 DT for their prior teams. Not exactly great fits as 3-4 DEs.

Zach Brown. A guy with experience playing LBer in a 4-3. In fact, if Cravens refuses to play Lber, Brown would be an ideal WLB in a 4-3, a guy we really didn't have if we wanted to make the switch.

Then look at the moves we didn't make.

We didn't retain Chris Baker, the best 3-4 Dlineman we had.

We haven't done anything at NT. But a guy like McGee could fill that role in a 4-3.
The defense we run is a hybrid. So, like the last two years we will have some 3-4 and some 4-3 looks.

Our DL plays the gaps like this:

- One DE two-gaps as a 5 technique like in a traditional 3-4
- The other DE one gaps as a 3 technique and shoots that gap
- The NT plays the one technique and shoots that gap

We have been forced to play a 4-2-5 2/3 of the game or so since 2013 because of how much the league throws the ball now, which has hurt our run defense because we don't have traditional 280 to 290 pound 4-3 DEs. We are forced to play 270 pound OLBs as DEs - who get abused in the run game as DEs - and we only have 2 traditional linebackers on the field for 2/3 of the game which hurts our run defense and defending running backs out of the backfield.


Once more with feeling, Woz!

If we have to run a 4-2-5 2/3s or more a game because of how much the league throws the ball, why continue to select talent as if the franchise runs a 3-4 most of the game? Instead of forcing underweight outside linebackers down in the trenches, why not get honest-to-goodness defensive ends who fit a four man front?

In short, why not adjust to what you actually do instead of some Platonic ideal of what you want to do?

If they are going to move to a more traditional 4-3 or a base 4-2-5 hybrid (with Cravens playing the joker safety), then MKnight82 is right: signing McClain and McGee make sense.

Even if you are correct that we have a 5-tech, a 3-tech, and a 1-tech (*), we're still short a tech. And in all likelihood, that is the 1-tech which is the single most important position in the 3-4 front. The problem is (say it with me now) there are only so many men in the world that can play a 1-tech. This is basic supply and demand.




(*) Incidentally, how does that work?


For the purposes of this, let's ignore the TE and the C-gaps because that's going to have to be the responsibility of the linebackers. Further, let's put the the 5-tech opposite the right tackle and right guard and is responsible for the right side B and A gaps. So, he's lined up face to face with the right tackle, but responsible for the gap between the gap guard and center. The 1 tech is lined up between the center and the left guard, and the 3 tech is lined up just off the right shoulder of the left guard.

If the center crashes on the 1-tech with the left guard, and the left tackle takes on the 3-tech, the right guard can assist the right tackle and blow a ginormous hole up the middle. Alternatively, the center can take on the 1-tech directly, let the guard take the 3-tech and the left tackle can go merrily wreak havoc at the second level. Or maybe the right guard goes sprinting up field, leaving the right tackle one-on-one with the 5-tech and maybe the guard/center/left tackle all dealing with the other two.

Oh, you move a linebacker down between them? Okay, then. But how does a 250-270 lbs linebacker deal with the fact that there is a 300+ lb lineman coming up at them? Isn't that just the very problem you identified earlier?
I get what you are saying but the Broncos had the best defense in the NFL running this very defense. They didn't necessarily have the NT you are clamoring we need.

I don't see how your scenario can't also happen with a 4-3 defense. Let's say we have a RDE who is Kerrigan, Carter or Orakpo's size and he's playing 6 or 7 technique and then we have a LDE who's like Phillip Daniels or Renaldo Wynn's size and he's playing 5 or 6 technique. Then, one DT is playing 3 technique and the NT is playing 1 technique the very same thing can and does happen. Our 4-3 linebackers will be playing the gaps.

In our current defense we have a 5 tech (probably Hood or a draft pick), a 3 technique (probably McClain) a one technique (probably McGee or a draft pick). Then, Smith plays the 6 technique and Kerrigan plays 7 technique.

I frankly don't really care what defensive scheme we play but acting like the 3-4 doesn't work just doesn't pass the smell test. It works if you have talent, same with the 4-3. Our defense was great in 2004 & 05 because we had GREAT talent in the back 7 and an aggressive and creative defensive playcaller - who even brought corner and safety blitzes because he didn't have a great passing rushing DL - our defense was good from 07-09 for the same reasons.

In 2010 our defense got old and most of the players were already gone or about done with very little left to give. The only players that can really be pointed to that didn't fit in, or didn't want to play in the 3-4 in 2010 from our 08 & 09 defenses was Andre Carter and Albert Haynesworth.

Orakpo, Daniels and Fletcher made the switch successfully (although the later two's careers were about done in 2010) as was McIntosh's because of his bad knees. Carter left and had one more good season, and Haynesworth did nothing after we dumped him.

We had the guys in 2011 but they got injured and their high salaries, along with the cap penalty handicapped us for adding depth to the team in their absence because our offensive minded director of football operations couldn't acquire the correct defensive players in the draft, just like he had struggled to do the decade before.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Who was the last SB winning team to run a 3-4? Was it the Ravens in 2012-13?
Denver, and NE plays a hybrid of the two. Coincidentally, both the 49ers & Ravens ran a 3-4 in the 2012-13 super bowl.


Yea, forgot about Denver.

Though Wade Phillips is much more creative than any 3-4 DC we've had here.
Quote:

Back for a second run as Broncos’ coordinator, Phillips has implemented his version of the 3-4 defense that simplifies the duties and exploits the depth and weapons on his roster. It’s a system that is adaptable, and one that his players have embraced.

“We try to fit what the players can do in the defense rather than saying, ‘OK, we’re a 4-3 or we’re a two-gap 3-4,’ ” Phillips said. “We’re a team where if a guy can stunt and rush the passer, we let him do that. If a guy is a power guy, we try to let him be that. It’s all what individual players can do.”


http://www.denverpost.com/2016/02/07/for-wade-phillips-broncos-3-4-defense-and-one-gap-equals-dominance/
Yet, he said he did t come here this year because of lack of talent or something to that affect.

Why would any of the best defensive coordinators come to DC when we don't have players like Bosa & Lugiet and Donald, Quinn, Brockers and Ogletree?
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