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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4875
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Chieferific wrote:
So who fits your Rd1 Rule this year @ #30?
Also, the instant impact of a Rd one rarely happens. It didn't happen for Dupree. It didn't happen for Troy. I'd say Burns is a better example than those two.


I dont think he is saying that they have to be immediate great starters....just have a great asset you can build off of. Dupree had elite athleticism from the get go, but he seriously lacked technique. However. I think we are starting to see what happens you add technique to elite athleticism, because Dupree is really coming around.

I actually agree with what warfelg is saying. Only thing I will saying against it is that even if a player has a few great assets, that doesnt guarantee success in the NFL. Not exactly earth-shattering news, but its always important to know that the draft, even the first round and especially the late first round, is largely a crapshoot.
I can understand that. It makes sense. The "crapshoot" comment is kinda the point I was trying to make. Being GOOD at everything is an asset in and of itself. I don't think Anderson is an Elite player but there is something to be said for a "safe" player that can stay on the field almost every down and can play well. In addition, it's not as if there are many players @ #30 this year that have that one "great" skill that is undeniable and as close to a guarantee as possible. Interestingly, there may be more of those types of players available in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Rds than are rated to go in the 1st.
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warfelg wrote:
Quote:
why does KC have Houston (who is returning from a knee) cover AB on a crucial play? THAT makes no sense

They Butlered themselves. Laughing
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3544
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Chieferific wrote:
So who fits your Rd1 Rule this year @ #30?
Also, the instant impact of a Rd one rarely happens. It didn't happen for Dupree. It didn't happen for Troy. I'd say Burns is a better example than those two.


I dont think he is saying that they have to be immediate great starters....just have a great asset you can build off of. Dupree had elite athleticism from the get go, but he seriously lacked technique. However. I think we are starting to see what happens you add technique to elite athleticism, because Dupree is really coming around.

I actually agree with what warfelg is saying. Only thing I will saying against it is that even if a player has a few great assets, that doesnt guarantee success in the NFL. Not exactly earth-shattering news, but its always important to know that the draft, even the first round and especially the late first round, is largely a crapshoot.


I'm not saying it guarantees success either.

Just rather something I really look for in the first round. I have to feel you have something that sets you aside from the others to take you in the first. I don't care if it's use of hands, athleticism, instincts, footwork, whatever; as long as production isn't the thing you were "great" at.

I didn't like Jarvis because coming out because he wasn't great at anything. He had OK instincts. He had OK feet, hands, athleticism. But he had grat production. That doesn't work for me in the 1st. That's a guy that screams 3rd round pick to me.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4875
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
Chieferific wrote:
So who fits your Rd1 Rule this year @ #30?
Also, the instant impact of a Rd one rarely happens. It didn't happen for Dupree. It didn't happen for Troy. I'd say Burns is a better example than those two.


Charles Harris, Takk McKinney, Obi Melifonwu, Carl Lawson

Harris has great hands, Takk has great athleticism, Obi has great athleticism, Lawson has great instincts.

Ok, I can see that but I'd add that those guys have a lot of question marks to go along with that athleticism. Lawson-Injuries/stiffness. Tak-technique/injuries. Obi-Coverage skills/instincts. Harris-Explosiveness.
I'm not trying to talk you into Anderson. I recognize his weaknesses. I'd actually prefer Harris out of all the names mentioned. But I don't think Anderson should be slighted or looked over so easily.
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warfelg wrote:
Quote:
why does KC have Houston (who is returning from a knee) cover AB on a crucial play? THAT makes no sense

They Butlered themselves. Laughing
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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4875
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
Chieferific wrote:
So who fits your Rd1 Rule this year @ #30?
Also, the instant impact of a Rd one rarely happens. It didn't happen for Dupree. It didn't happen for Troy. I'd say Burns is a better example than those two.


I dont think he is saying that they have to be immediate great starters....just have a great asset you can build off of. Dupree had elite athleticism from the get go, but he seriously lacked technique. However. I think we are starting to see what happens you add technique to elite athleticism, because Dupree is really coming around.

I actually agree with what warfelg is saying. Only thing I will saying against it is that even if a player has a few great assets, that doesnt guarantee success in the NFL. Not exactly earth-shattering news, but its always important to know that the draft, even the first round and especially the late first round, is largely a crapshoot.


I'm not saying it guarantees success either.

Just rather something I really look for in the first round. I have to feel you have something that sets you aside from the others to take you in the first. I don't care if it's use of hands, athleticism, instincts, footwork, whatever; as long as production isn't the thing you were "great" at.

I didn't like Jarvis because coming out because he wasn't great at anything. He had OK instincts. He had OK feet, hands, athleticism. But he had grat production. That doesn't work for me in the 1st. That's a guy that screams 3rd round pick to me.

I respect that approach but it has to vary year to year. As you noted, that list @ #30 is short. So you may need to make some sacrifices in assessments. And I agree whole-heartedly in regards to JJ. That seemed to be a common view among posters, NFL execs, the talking heads...etc. Apparently the Steeler Brass missed the obvious somehow.
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warfelg wrote:
Quote:
why does KC have Houston (who is returning from a knee) cover AB on a crucial play? THAT makes no sense

They Butlered themselves. Laughing
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3544
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chieferific wrote:
warfelg wrote:
Chieferific wrote:
So who fits your Rd1 Rule this year @ #30?
Also, the instant impact of a Rd one rarely happens. It didn't happen for Dupree. It didn't happen for Troy. I'd say Burns is a better example than those two.


Charles Harris, Takk McKinney, Obi Melifonwu, Carl Lawson

Harris has great hands, Takk has great athleticism, Obi has great athleticism, Lawson has great instincts.

Ok, I can see that but I'd add that those guys have a lot of question marks to go along with that athleticism. Lawson-Injuries/stiffness. Tak-technique/injuries. Obi-Coverage skills/instincts. Harris-Explosiveness.
I'm not trying to talk you into Anderson. I recognize his weaknesses. I'd actually prefer Harris out of all the names mentioned. But I don't think Anderson should be slighted or looked over so easily.


It's not a slight to Anderson. I think he's still a good player, but he's not what I'm looking for in a first rounder. He's what I'm looking for in a second rounder.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10135
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not a fan of Anderson in the 1st. I think he will be a solid but unspectacular LB for years. He will be Arthur Moats. I take him in the 2nd to 3rd rounds.

You can't be afraid of failure and must take chances in projecting the 1st round players.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6788
Location: In your head
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
I am not a fan of Anderson in the 1st. I think he will be a solid but unspectacular LB for years. He will be Arthur Moats. I take him in the 2nd to 3rd rounds.

You can't be afraid of failure and must take chances in projecting the 1st round players.


Grade players 1-5 in what Steelers like in their Outside Linebackers.
Pass Rush: Lawson-5, Harris-5, McKinley-4, Anderson-4, Watt-4
Run Stop: Lawson-3, Harris-3, McKinley-5, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Cover: Lawson-2, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Special Teams: Lawson-1, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-3, Watt-1

What other means can we use to separate these guys?
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3544
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

armsteeld wrote:
jebrick wrote:
I am not a fan of Anderson in the 1st. I think he will be a solid but unspectacular LB for years. He will be Arthur Moats. I take him in the 2nd to 3rd rounds.

You can't be afraid of failure and must take chances in projecting the 1st round players.


Grade players 1-5 in what Steelers like in their Outside Linebackers.
Pass Rush: Lawson-5, Harris-5, McKinley-4, Anderson-4, Watt-4
Run Stop: Lawson-3, Harris-3, McKinley-5, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Cover: Lawson-2, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Special Teams: Lawson-1, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-3, Watt-1

What other means can we use to separate these guys?


Potential, Athleticism.

Also I would ignore special teams. None of these guys would likely play it much.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6788
Location: In your head
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
jebrick wrote:
I am not a fan of Anderson in the 1st. I think he will be a solid but unspectacular LB for years. He will be Arthur Moats. I take him in the 2nd to 3rd rounds.

You can't be afraid of failure and must take chances in projecting the 1st round players.


Grade players 1-5 in what Steelers like in their Outside Linebackers.
Pass Rush: Lawson-5, Harris-5, McKinley-4, Anderson-4, Watt-4
Run Stop: Lawson-3, Harris-3, McKinley-5, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Cover: Lawson-2, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Special Teams: Lawson-1, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-3, Watt-1

What other means can we use to separate these guys?


Potential, Athleticism.

Also I would ignore special teams. None of these guys would likely play it much.


Agreed! Is Potential measured by how easily you transition into a defense or do we want to take a Potential freak athlete and hope that we can train him up?

Athleticism is great in a football player yet I feel many measure it in a vacuum. Most analysts view athleticism in regards to how well you can turn a corner to get at the QB Laughing
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3544
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

armsteeld wrote:
warfelg wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
jebrick wrote:
I am not a fan of Anderson in the 1st. I think he will be a solid but unspectacular LB for years. He will be Arthur Moats. I take him in the 2nd to 3rd rounds.

You can't be afraid of failure and must take chances in projecting the 1st round players.


Grade players 1-5 in what Steelers like in their Outside Linebackers.
Pass Rush: Lawson-5, Harris-5, McKinley-4, Anderson-4, Watt-4
Run Stop: Lawson-3, Harris-3, McKinley-5, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Cover: Lawson-2, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Special Teams: Lawson-1, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-3, Watt-1

What other means can we use to separate these guys?


Potential, Athleticism.

Also I would ignore special teams. None of these guys would likely play it much.


Agreed! Is Potential measured by how easily you transition into a defense or do we want to take a Potential freak athlete and hope that we can train him up?


I'm sure your being sarcastic, but both.

If I had to go potential: Lawson 4, Harris 4, Takk 5, Anderson 3, Watt 3

armsteeld wrote:
Athleticism is great in a football player yet I feel many measure it in a vacuum. Most analysts view athleticism in regards to how well you can turn a corner to get at the QB Laughing


Exactly. That's why my athleticism ratings for these guys goes:
Lawson 4, Harris 4, Takk 4, Anderson 3, Watt 2

Another one I forgot is health.
Lawson 3, Harris 4, Takk 2, Anderson 4, Watt 1
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10135
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

armsteeld wrote:
jebrick wrote:
I am not a fan of Anderson in the 1st. I think he will be a solid but unspectacular LB for years. He will be Arthur Moats. I take him in the 2nd to 3rd rounds.

You can't be afraid of failure and must take chances in projecting the 1st round players.


Grade players 1-5 in what Steelers like in their Outside Linebackers.
Pass Rush: Lawson-5, Harris-5, McKinley-4, Anderson-4, Watt-4
Run Stop: Lawson-3, Harris-3, McKinley-5, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Cover: Lawson-2, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Special Teams: Lawson-1, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-3, Watt-1

What other means can we use to separate these guys?


Add Bowser to your list. He is more explosive than Anderson. Better in coverage than Anderson. Faster and better movement skills than Anderson. A year in the weight room and he could be special.

Jordon Willis Superior in all aspects of the game with the exception of coverage when compared to Anderson. We just have not seen him drop into coverage but he is very smart.

Going by SPARQ scores Anderson is an average athlete with a score of 86. Compare that with Dupree who had a 147 that put him in the 97.5 percentile. Is SPARQ the end all? Hell no. But it does show athletic ability.

Anderson is at his ceiling. Solid jag for 7 years in the NFL. Would not take him in the 1st round.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6788
Location: In your head
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
jebrick wrote:
I am not a fan of Anderson in the 1st. I think he will be a solid but unspectacular LB for years. He will be Arthur Moats. I take him in the 2nd to 3rd rounds.

You can't be afraid of failure and must take chances in projecting the 1st round players.


Grade players 1-5 in what Steelers like in their Outside Linebackers.
Pass Rush: Lawson-5, Harris-5, McKinley-4, Anderson-4, Watt-4
Run Stop: Lawson-3, Harris-3, McKinley-5, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Cover: Lawson-2, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Special Teams: Lawson-1, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-3, Watt-1

What other means can we use to separate these guys?


Add Bowser to your list. He is more explosive than Anderson. Better in coverage than Anderson. Faster and better movement skills than Anderson. A year in the weight room and he could be special.

Jordon Willis Superior in all aspects of the game with the exception of coverage when compared to Anderson. We just have not seen him drop into coverage but he is very smart.

Going by SPARQ scores Anderson is an average athlete with a score of 86. Compare that with Dupree who had a 147 that put him in the 97.5 percentile. Is SPARQ the end all? Hell no. But it does show athletic ability.

Anderson is at his ceiling. Solid jag for 7 years in the NFL. Would not take him in the 1st round.


I was a huge Bowser fan last year. Mostly due to watching WJIII and those LBs kept making plays. Bowser honestly could be the selection at 30 and I wouldn't hate it. Steelers love SPARQ scores and Bowser meets that thresh hold.

James Harrison's SPARQ score when he came out wouldn't have looked good. Ryan Anderson is that type of guy. The type who is driven by the media/analysts saying he benefits from the talent around him and that he isn't anything special. When you watch him talk, dude just seems like he wants to punch you Laughing That being said, if he isn't picked by us I'll hate it but same with Dee Ford, Melvin Ingram, Shane Ray etc... I'll root for their success.

I've watched most of Jordan Willis film and he is underwhelming to watch. He doesn't go all out or is out of shape. I got disgusted watching him half assing to the ball. Not Steelers type of guy but he is a SPARQ standout. Numbers lie but film doesn't.
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JLambert58


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2009
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

armsteeld wrote:
jebrick wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
jebrick wrote:
I am not a fan of Anderson in the 1st. I think he will be a solid but unspectacular LB for years. He will be Arthur Moats. I take him in the 2nd to 3rd rounds.

You can't be afraid of failure and must take chances in projecting the 1st round players.


Grade players 1-5 in what Steelers like in their Outside Linebackers.
Pass Rush: Lawson-5, Harris-5, McKinley-4, Anderson-4, Watt-4
Run Stop: Lawson-3, Harris-3, McKinley-5, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Cover: Lawson-2, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Special Teams: Lawson-1, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-3, Watt-1

What other means can we use to separate these guys?


Add Bowser to your list. He is more explosive than Anderson. Better in coverage than Anderson. Faster and better movement skills than Anderson. A year in the weight room and he could be special.

Jordon Willis Superior in all aspects of the game with the exception of coverage when compared to Anderson. We just have not seen him drop into coverage but he is very smart.

Going by SPARQ scores Anderson is an average athlete with a score of 86. Compare that with Dupree who had a 147 that put him in the 97.5 percentile. Is SPARQ the end all? Hell no. But it does show athletic ability.

Anderson is at his ceiling. Solid jag for 7 years in the NFL. Would not take him in the 1st round.


I was a huge Bowser fan last year. Mostly due to watching WJIII and those LBs kept making plays. Bowser honestly could be the selection at 30 and I wouldn't hate it. Steelers love SPARQ scores and Bowser meets that thresh hold.

James Harrison's SPARQ score when he came out wouldn't have looked good. Ryan Anderson is that type of guy. The type who is driven by the media/analysts saying he benefits from the talent around him and that he isn't anything special. When you watch him talk, dude just seems like he wants to punch you Laughing That being said, if he isn't picked by us I'll hate it but same with Dee Ford, Melvin Ingram, Shane Ray etc... I'll root for their success.

I've watched most of Jordan Willis film and he is underwhelming to watch. He doesn't go all out or is out of shape. I got disgusted watching him half assing to the ball. Not Steelers type of guy but he is a SPARQ standout. Numbers lie but film doesn't.


Damn, what's up with the Willis-hate? I don't see that at all. I see a guy getting double teamed a lot. I see a guy who is constantly moving the pocket. But I don't agree with the half assing it part. I think he's smart about how he uses his energy. He's not a super rah-rah guy but I think he brings it when he needs to.

So who do you like in the second round of our Group Mock?
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 6788
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JLambert58 wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
jebrick wrote:
armsteeld wrote:
jebrick wrote:
I am not a fan of Anderson in the 1st. I think he will be a solid but unspectacular LB for years. He will be Arthur Moats. I take him in the 2nd to 3rd rounds.

You can't be afraid of failure and must take chances in projecting the 1st round players.


Grade players 1-5 in what Steelers like in their Outside Linebackers.
Pass Rush: Lawson-5, Harris-5, McKinley-4, Anderson-4, Watt-4
Run Stop: Lawson-3, Harris-3, McKinley-5, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Cover: Lawson-2, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-5, Watt-3
Special Teams: Lawson-1, Harris-1, McKinley-1, Anderson-3, Watt-1

What other means can we use to separate these guys?


Add Bowser to your list. He is more explosive than Anderson. Better in coverage than Anderson. Faster and better movement skills than Anderson. A year in the weight room and he could be special.

Jordon Willis Superior in all aspects of the game with the exception of coverage when compared to Anderson. We just have not seen him drop into coverage but he is very smart.

Going by SPARQ scores Anderson is an average athlete with a score of 86. Compare that with Dupree who had a 147 that put him in the 97.5 percentile. Is SPARQ the end all? Hell no. But it does show athletic ability.

Anderson is at his ceiling. Solid jag for 7 years in the NFL. Would not take him in the 1st round.


I was a huge Bowser fan last year. Mostly due to watching WJIII and those LBs kept making plays. Bowser honestly could be the selection at 30 and I wouldn't hate it. Steelers love SPARQ scores and Bowser meets that thresh hold.

James Harrison's SPARQ score when he came out wouldn't have looked good. Ryan Anderson is that type of guy. The type who is driven by the media/analysts saying he benefits from the talent around him and that he isn't anything special. When you watch him talk, dude just seems like he wants to punch you Laughing That being said, if he isn't picked by us I'll hate it but same with Dee Ford, Melvin Ingram, Shane Ray etc... I'll root for their success.

I've watched most of Jordan Willis film and he is underwhelming to watch. He doesn't go all out or is out of shape. I got disgusted watching him half assing to the ball. Not Steelers type of guy but he is a SPARQ standout. Numbers lie but film doesn't.


Damn, what's up with the Willis-hate? I don't see that at all. I see a guy getting double teamed a lot. I see a guy who is constantly moving the pocket. But I don't agree with the half assing it part. I think he's smart about how he uses his energy. He's not a super rah-rah guy but I think he brings it when he needs to.

So who do you like in the second round of our Group Mock?


Once I get back, I will find and ost the game where I lost faith in Willis. I went Tre'Davious White in the 1st and Ryan Anderson in the 2nd. I look forward to the 3rd round.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10135
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

armsteeld wrote:
[
Once I get back, I will find and ost the game where I lost faith in Willis. I went Tre'Davious White in the 1st and Ryan Anderson in the 2nd. I look forward to the 3rd round.


I love White because he fits EXACTLY what the Steelers need in a slot CB that could also go outside. White is the best slot corner in the draft.
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