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Jabril Peppers/David Njoku
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JLambert58


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2031
Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
JLambert58 wrote:
jcm412 wrote:
Peppers has no instincts and is not natural in coverage. I would not take a TE if the is a OLB or CB on the board worth taking. I would probably say the same thing for round two as well. There could be some decent TEs in later rounds.

I thought her report was bs. If Green and Bryant come back Ben gets two weapons right there.


OLB or CB has to be the priority. CB likely will have more value at 30 and an good edge guy will fall to 62. Any safety in rd 1 doesn't make sense unless it was Hooker.


I see a better CB falling to 62 than OLB. I think that there isn't as much depth at OLB as people are making it out to be.


Guess it depends on what kind of corner you want. If we are trying to get a tall, long, fast corner who can man up as well as having the right instincts and quickness to play zone, then we are talking rd. 1 probably. (Marlon Humphrey would be ideal imo) Otherwise you give up something (i.e. Rasul Douglas lacking elite speed) But if you want a good slot corner, then I agree with that. (A. Jackson or J. Lewis, etc.)

IF you wait for OLB, you will lose some guys but I think at 62 there will still be plenty of good talent. Most likely one of these guys will still be there: Tim Williams, Basham, Lawson, Willis or Rivers. Double-dip on one of the other talented Day 3 guys and we're all set.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 10339
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a lot of armchair scouts look at what they think a guy is based on what they're seeing rather than project. The guy was playing LB last year and people are talking about all these limitations he is supposed to have in coverage or some lack of production (pass break-ups/INT's). NFL teams look at what these guys can be and whether they think they're coachable.

I've said it already, but when a guy like Harbaugh raves about a guys intelligence and instincts, I'm going to listen.

I think it's stupid that Peppers could fall to 30, and if he's there I expect the Steelers to run to get the pick in. And they'll be right about it.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
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Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
I think a lot of armchair scouts look at what they think a guy is based on what they're seeing rather than project. The guy was playing LB last year and people are talking about all these limitations he is supposed to have in coverage or some lack of production (pass break-ups/INT's). NFL teams look at what these guys can be and whether they think they're coachable.

I've said it already, but when a guy like Harbaugh raves about a guys intelligence and instincts, I'm going to listen.

I think it's stupid that Peppers could fall to 30, and if he's there I expect the Steelers to run to get the pick in. And they'll be right about it.


Same things were there before he made the move too.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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jcm412


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
CKSteeler wrote:
I think a lot of armchair scouts look at what they think a guy is based on what they're seeing rather than project. The guy was playing LB last year and people are talking about all these limitations he is supposed to have in coverage or some lack of production (pass break-ups/INT's). NFL teams look at what these guys can be and whether they think they're coachable.

I've said it already, but when a guy like Harbaugh raves about a guys intelligence and instincts, I'm going to listen.

I think it's stupid that Peppers could fall to 30, and if he's there I expect the Steelers to run to get the pick in. And they'll be right about it.


Same things were there before he made the move too.


Agreed.
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JustPlainNasty


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other than run after the catch ability , based on power and ability to break thru tackles, what is the fascination with Shaheen?
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Last edited by JustPlainNasty on Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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warfelg


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustPlainNasty wrote:
Other than run after the catch ability , based on power and ability to break thru tackles, what is the fascination with Sheehan?


Big classic throwback hand in the dirt inline TE who will play in the seams.

He's a lot like Heath Miller.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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JLambert58


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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Location: Denver, CO
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustPlainNasty wrote:
Other than run after the catch ability , based on power and ability to break thru tackles, what is the fascination with Shaheen?


Fast for a big man. Looks like a matchup nightmare if he's as good as advertised. Maybe he is or maybe he just looked amazing against that lower level competition. He's 6'064 but his arms are not incredibly long relative to his body. Not quite as long as you would think - 33 1/3. And actually his hands are not that big for a giant dude - 9 5/8.

fwiw Just looked this up w Shaheen - Michael Roberts from Toledo has huge hands - 11 1/2, 33 1/4 arms at 6'043 and .7 slower than Shaheen but a faster 3C.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Same things were there before he made the move too.


To which I'd respond that the guy is 21 years old. He played all of 15 games at safety - three as a true freshman before he was hurt.

Harbaugh vouches for his ability to see a concept and execute it with limited reps. He vouches for his football smarts and work ethic/time in the weight room. And when you look at how they moved him all over the place, that shows that Harbaugh isn't just talking bull (not that I'd expect him to be so effusive if it weren't true).

Recognizing route combinations and such takes time. I'd imagine it's a bit harder when you are moved all over the place. Most of what people are saying about Peppers was also said about Polamalu, and he played 4 seasons at USC before coming out.

If I can get an elite athlete at his position who is committed to the game - to include film study - and who picks up defenses relatively quickly on top of being able to impact the game in other ways, I'm pretty damn happy about that myself.

It's not a perfect comparison, but I'd remind people of guys like Eli Apple and even Burns who get fans tend to be down on but teams seem to appreciate far more. Guys who obviously have room to grow. Both did pretty good as rookies to me, and neither was as good as Peppers was in college...while playing out of position.
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Mike Tomlin, January 17, 2017 on the avoiding the Patriots in previous playoffs:
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Final: 36-17
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JLambert58 wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
Other than run after the catch ability , based on power and ability to break thru tackles, what is the fascination with Shaheen?


Fast for a big man. Looks like a matchup nightmare if he's as good as advertised. Maybe he is or maybe he just looked amazing against that lower level competition. He's 6'064 but his arms are not incredibly long relative to his body. Not quite as long as you would think - 33 1/3. And actually his hands are not that big for a giant dude - 9 5/8.

fwiw Just looked this up w Shaheen - Michael Roberts from Toledo has huge hands - 11 1/2, 33 1/4 arms at 6'043 and .7 slower than Shaheen but a faster 3C.


Ive seen a few games. Not overwhelmed with his blocking for a big guy vs that level of competition. He gets very little to NO separation vs such a lower level of competition, if you want to compare him to a Steeler Im thinking a lot more along the lines of Matt Spaeth, although when he does actually catch the ball he looks a bit like Gronk when they are trying to take him down. Its kinds of like handing off the ball to a defensive lineman. I'd be more interested in seeing what he could do at DE.
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95lloyd


Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben's already come out with a statement saying he never lobbied for a TE or anyone for that matter.

I get the feeling she lost the respect of the locker room, if she had any, with her playoff call of AB pouting when someone else scored.
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JustPlainNasty


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

95lloyd wrote:
Ben's already come out with a statement saying he never lobbied for a TE or anyone for that matter.

I get the feeling she lost the respect of the locker room, if she had any, with her playoff call of AB pouting when someone else scored.


I highly doubt that.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Quote:
Same things were there before he made the move too.


To which I'd respond that the guy is 21 years old. He played all of 15 games at safety - three as a true freshman before he was hurt.

Harbaugh vouches for his ability to see a concept and execute it with limited reps. He vouches for his football smarts and work ethic/time in the weight room. And when you look at how they moved him all over the place, that shows that Harbaugh isn't just talking bull (not that I'd expect him to be so effusive if it weren't true).

Recognizing route combinations and such takes time. I'd imagine it's a bit harder when you are moved all over the place. Most of what people are saying about Peppers was also said about Polamalu, and he played 4 seasons at USC before coming out.

If I can get an elite athlete at his position who is committed to the game - to include film study - and who picks up defenses relatively quickly on top of being able to impact the game in other ways, I'm pretty damn happy about that myself.

It's not a perfect comparison, but I'd remind people of guys like Eli Apple and even Burns who get fans tend to be down on but teams seem to appreciate far more. Guys who obviously have room to grow. Both did pretty good as rookies to me, and neither was as good as Peppers was in college...while playing out of position.


He isn't elite.

Peppers: 5'11 213 4.46 in the 40, Vert 35.5, BJ 128
Josh Jones 6'1 220 4.41 in the 40, Vert 37.5, BJ 132
Samson Ebukam: 6'2 245 4.45 in the 40, Vert 39 BJ 130
Haason Reddick: 6'1 237 4.52 in the 40, Vert 36.5, BJ 133

Each one of those guys is bigger than Peppers and just as fast or faster. They also create turnovers. Peppers can impact a game but he isn't no special player. You say Projection, I say Production. I prefer the latter.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 10339
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Peppers: 5'11 213 4.46 in the 40, Vert 35.5, BJ 128
Josh Jones 6'1 220 4.41 in the 40, Vert 37.5, BJ 132
Samson Ebukam: 6'2 245 4.45 in the 40, Vert 39 BJ 130
Haason Reddick: 6'1 237 4.52 in the 40, Vert 36.5, BJ 133

Each one of those guys is bigger than Peppers and just as fast or faster. They also create turnovers. Peppers can impact a game but he isn't no special player. You say Projection, I say Production. I prefer the latter.


1. I said an elite athlete at his position. Compare Peppers to other safeties.
2. You are only looking at explosion/straight line speed rather than change of direction. There's a reason the Steelers don't use Ryan Shazier at safety.
3. Reddick - 4 year starter. Josh Jones - 3 year starter at safety. Ebukam - I don't know why I'm talking about a small school LB projected as a day 3 pick here. He's got nice work out numbers.
4. Jones, too, is a hell of an athlete. But it's funny that people are knocking Peppers for what he does in coverage and you're bringing him up.

Jones got his hands on three passes last year. 2 PBU and 1 INT. He lacks discipline in coverage and if you listen to most people, he's slow to react in zone coverage, and gives up big plays. Based on what he put on film and his production, he's not a first rounder.

It's also strange to then bring up a guy like Ebukam when he's the sort of guy who you draft as a project. He's all about projection. He's an athlete who hasn't faced the level of competition and who didn't dominate to such an extent that scouts love him. Or he'd go much higher than he will.

Quote:
Projection, I say Production. I prefer the latter.


I'll take the guy who played at one of the top football programs in the country, under perhaps the second best football coach in college or the pro's. A guy who did everything his team asked of him to include lining up in 15 different spots on the field, who is reportedly a film junkie and a quick learner on top of having the athletic traits. He was a team leader and he plays with a chip on his shoulder.

When I look at the guys you named, I'm left wondering where all the production is. Reddick didn't much of it until year 4, and he did it at...Temple. And even then, it's kind of dubious to call it production when you actually watch him play. His game has a lot of issues. And you are asking him to learn LB now when he barely has DE down. Reddick is almost entirely a projection guy. A great athlete and effort player, but you are hoping he becomes the guy you think. He certainly isn't it yet, especially as he's going to have to transition to play LB. I'm not trying to trash Reddick here. I'm just pointing out that he's hardly a "production" type pick.

You prefer them to Peppers? Well, obviously entitled to that opinion. But I don't think you are using the metrics you describe. Or I'm stuck questioning how you define production.

I also think Peppers put up plenty on paper last year with 72 tackles, 16 TFL, four sacks, and a pick (which was good enough to be an All-American, as he just recently pointed out). Despite moving to a new position. Which compliments the 7 TD's he had as a returner and an on offense. I'd also argue he's the best tackler of anyone you named and would probably be the best in the Steelers secondary as a rookie. Production is getting reduced to a single statistic (interceptions) when the guy was playing LB last season.

But Phil Simms agrees with you.

I can't help but wonder if some of the views of him aren't a backlash against media hype and the Michigan thing.
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Mike Tomlin, January 17, 2017 on the avoiding the Patriots in previous playoffs:
"They haven't had to go through us, either. Stay tuned!"
Final: 36-17
NFL.com-BELICHICK OUTCOACHES TOMLIN YET AGAIN
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler:

Everyone's issue with Peppers should be as easy as this - He tested great at the combine, but you wouldn't be able to tell based off watching him pay defense on tape.

Harbaugh said he studied? This wouldn't be the first time a coach talked up a player. I throw away coach talk this time of year from NCAA guys.

A guy that studies as much a Peppers should have more than 1 INT and 3 PD for his ENTIRE CAREER in college. Watching that tape he doesn't look like he's that athletic. He's a read and react type guy, not an anticipation type guy. He's playing safety the way Mitchell plays safety, not the way Polamalu played safety.

Him and Adoree Jackson are the same: Bad production defensively, great returnman.

So why take the defensive project who's a return man in round 1, when we could get the same thing in round 3?
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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jebrick


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he were a CB I would look at him differently as they are mostly read and react in college. A safety need to learn routes and anticipate. I think he is a great athlete who may have a great mind and attitude. The later two we fans can't see as we do not have the interviews.

If they take him at 30 I would not mind but he is a long way from being a starter. My guess is he would start in Late October or November.
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