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DEE RAWL


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 6106
Location: Southern California
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The video on NFL has him running a 4.47



Again, Im the last... well... second to last one to focus on 40 times, but again he plays with that same 4.6 speed. Ill say it one more time though, I dont care because he is an outstanding player. I dont dislike him, theres just most physically gifted WRs that I think can have more success/be more beneficial to this team. Thats all.
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2017 Draft Priority for Pick 37

1. Corey Davis, WR, WMU
2. Forrest Lamp, G/C, WKU
3. Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss
4. JuJu Smith-Schuster, WR, USC
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 69131
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEE RAWL wrote:
The video on NFL has him running a 4.47



Again, Im the last... well... second to last one to focus on 40 times, but again he plays with that same 4.6 speed. Ill say it one more time though, I dont care because he is an outstanding player. I dont dislike him, theres just most physically gifted WRs that I think can have more success/be more beneficial to this team. Thats all.


http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=74466&draftyear=2010&genpos=WR

That 4.6 speed was enough to run by Marcus Peters and Bubba Baker. It was enough to torch every Pac-12 defense that he played. It was enough to give CB fits at the Senior Bowl. I don't care whether he plays with 4.6 speed or not. He understands how to create separation.

People said the exact same things about Keenan Allen and DeAndre Hopkins. Yet, they've both proven to be outstanding pro WRs. Kupp wins in the same sort of ways those two guys do.

Keep the more physically gifted guys. I want the guy who is the most mentally gifted and skilled. I'll go to the mat for this kid.
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DEE RAWL


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 6106
Location: Southern California
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But thats my point, both Keenan Allen and Nuk play faster and are more explosive. I was on the Tyler Boyd train last year and he was similar as those guys. Kupp is similar to those guys in how they win, but I think his physical limitations COULD cause him some issues in the NFL moreso than the others listed. I like him, Im rooting for him, and would have no issue if we took a chance on him to see if he has enough to succeed in the NFL, just not in round 2. I understand and respect that you are going to take him where you can get him, but to me he's not a top 50 guy.
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2017 Draft Priority for Pick 37

1. Corey Davis, WR, WMU
2. Forrest Lamp, G/C, WKU
3. Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss
4. JuJu Smith-Schuster, WR, USC
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Flatlyner


Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 6814
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no issue with him in 2nd, but I want to trade down a bit first. I'd be more then happy with him after that. I'd be elated with him in the 3rd, but I understand that is risky.
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Welcome to the LA Rams
Gerald Everett, TE
Cooper Kupp, WR
John Johnson, S/CB
Josh Reynolds, WR
Samson Ebukam, Edge
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 69131
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEE RAWL wrote:
But thats my point, both Keenan Allen and Nuk play faster and are more explosive. I was on the Tyler Boyd train last year and he was similar as those guys. Kupp is similar to those guys in how they win, but I think his physical limitations COULD cause him some issues in the NFL moreso than the others listed. I like him, Im rooting for him, and would have no issue if we took a chance on him to see if he has enough to succeed in the NFL, just not in round 2. I understand and respect that you are going to take him where you can get him, but to me he's not a top 50 guy.


Absolutely. They all play faster because they have been successful in the NFL. If either guy hadn't panned out, people would have claimed they were too slow. Same thing with Allen Robinson.

Here are some observations and facts from the Senior Bowl:
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2017/01/senior_bowl_2017_meet_senior_b.html
Quote:
Eastern Washington wide receiver Cooper Kupp has turned heads all week in Mobile, rising from largely unknown prospect to potential first-round selection in April's NFL draft. He's caught the eyes of everyone from NFL scouts and talent evaluators and TV analysts to North squad teammates and casual observers alike.

"He's had a fantastic week," Pro Football Focus analyst Gordon McGuinness said of Kupp in an interview on WNSP-FM 105.5. "Everything he's been asked to do this week, he's done incredibly well. He's been 1-on-1 with Michigan's Jourdan Lewis -- who is an incredibly good corner -- a lot of times this week, and he's gotten the better of him. On slant routes, he's been utterly dominant. I think the defensive backs are going to be seeing him catching slant passes in their sleep in front of them.

"He's also sure at making the catch and he can match guys down the field with speed. He's a guy who has definitely opened some eyes. If teams weren't properly focused on him before now, they definitely will be in the future."

NFL Network analysts Mike Mayock and Gil Brandt have also been effusive in their praise of the 6-foot-1 1/2, 198-pound Kupp.

"I like this kid," Mayock told NFL.com's Chase Goodbread. " ... He's fast. He won deep, he won shallow, he beat press coverage. He can win at all three levels. And he gets it. I think he's going to play and play well very early in his NFL career."

Brandt, the former Dallas Cowboys director of scouting, wrote on Twitter: "EWU WR Cooper Kupp really helping himself at Senior Bowl. If he runs well at combine, possible he sneaks into Round 1."


Quote:
When asked which NFL receivers he patterns himself after, Kupp listed some likely names among current standouts -- Larry Fitzgerald, Antonio Brown and A.J. Green. However, because he's white, Kupp often draws comparisons to the likes of Wes Welker and Julian Edelman.

That's not an apt comparison, if for no other reason than Kupp is much larger than those two. He's also fleeter of foot, with Catapult Sports -- which is tracking Senior Bowl players this week using "wearable GPS technology" -- clocking him as the fastest player on the North team at a max running velocity of 20.7 mph.


Quote:
And Peterman, who has been on the other end of several of the passes Kupp has caught during Senior Bowl week, said the proof of Kupp's ability has been evident.

"He's been running by guys all week," Peterman said. "Great in his routes, very disciplined. He understands what quarterbacks are looking for, so he does a good job out there."


Simply put, if Kupp turns into a very good or great NFL WR, people will say that he plays faster than he times. In fact, I'll say that now. As I've said a few times now, he played fast enough to burn Bubba Baker and Marcus Peters. That's actually only the tip of the iceberg.

I was also a big Tyler Boyd guy last year. I would have taken him in the top 50 picks. Kupp is a better prospect than Boyd.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 69131
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flatlyner wrote:
I have no issue with him in 2nd, but I want to trade down a bit first. I'd be more then happy with him after that. I'd be elated with him in the 3rd, but I understand that is risky.


As I said, I wasn't doing trade downs in this mock. There's no guarantee that we'll find a partner on draft day. However, let's say we trade down, what happens if that costs us Kupp? I'm sure y'all are okay with it because we can fall back on Godwin or Zay Jones or Juju Smith. Part of me feels the same way. Part of me feels that we shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.
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DEE RAWL


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 6106
Location: Southern California
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im aware hindsight is 20/20, Im saying Hopkins, Allen, and Boyd were more explosive in college. Budda Baker (why do you call him Bubba? Serious question) isnt known for covering vertically very well, but Peters is-- although Peters didnt time well at the combine either.


Bottom line is this, we both agree the kid can ball, I think we just have a different value set on him. For you hes a top 40 guy. For me hes not.
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2017 Draft Priority for Pick 37

1. Corey Davis, WR, WMU
2. Forrest Lamp, G/C, WKU
3. Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss
4. JuJu Smith-Schuster, WR, USC
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 69131
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEE RAWL wrote:
Im aware hindsight is 20/20, Im saying Hopkins, Allen, and Boyd were more explosive in college. Budda Baker (why do you call him Bubba? Serious question) isnt known for covering vertically very well, but Peters is-- although Peters didnt time well at the combine either.


Bottom line is this, we both agree the kid can ball, I think we just have a different value set on him. For you hes a top 40 guy. For me hes not.


Even before Allen ran his incredibly bad 40 times coming off his injury, the book on him was that he was slow. I had Allen as a first round pick based on film, but I bumped him down after his terrible 40. I'm not making the same mistake again here. Kupp has a skill-set that closely mirrors Allen's.

I also disagree on Boyd and Hopkins. They weren't considered fast or explosive either. That was the knock on both guys. Hopkins was a sure-handed crisp route runner who used his physicality to create separation. Boyd was smooth as hell with great cutting ability and body control but lacked vertical speed.

But I'd say that stat about max velocity from the Senior Bowl is pretty significant. It tends to undermine the argument that Kupp plays slow.

As for Peters timing kind of slow (4.53 40), doesn't that tend to back the point I'm making? He's still one of the NFL's best cover CBs.

We definitely do value him different. I'm simply pleading my case.

As for Baker, I always read his name as Bubba. I'm disappointed it isn't. Bubba is a much cooler name for a guy like him. Laughing
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DEE RAWL


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 6106
Location: Southern California
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that was the knock on them as well, but Im saying for me they had more explosiveness in college than Kupp. I didnt drop him for his 40 because it was about what I expected. Ive actually moved him up after I watched film on him before the combine when there was reports that the Rams might be interested.
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2017 Draft Priority for Pick 37

1. Corey Davis, WR, WMU
2. Forrest Lamp, G/C, WKU
3. Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss
4. JuJu Smith-Schuster, WR, USC
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RamPackFan


Joined: 06 Feb 2011
Posts: 727
Location: NW Washington
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
DEE RAWL wrote:
I mean... AB ran a 4.47 though...


Brown ran a 4.57 at the Combine. Pro Day 40s are notoriously inconsistent depending on the track. The Combine offers an even playing field to compare them on.

Quote:
I get it, its not all about numbers, but Kupp plays about the same as his timed speed. Don't get me wrong, I think hes a hell of a player with probably the best routes & hands in this class, but I think he could struggle to find seperation at the next level. Now, he doesnt need seperation to win as he can make catches in traffic and in tight windows, but he needs a QB that will trust him and fit it into those tight windows.


Antonio Brown - 4.57 40
Michael Thomas - 4.57 40
Brandon Marshall - 4.56 40
Jarvis Landry - 4.77 40
Wes Welker - 4.65 40
Danny Amendola - 4.70 40
Anquan Boldin - 4.71 40
Keenan Allen - 4.71 40
Kelvin Benjamin - 4.61 40
Allen Robinson - 4.60 40
Davante Adams - 4.56 40
DeAndre Hopkins - 4.57 40
Mohamed Sanu - 4.67 40
Rishard Matthews - 4.62 40
Stevie Johnson - 4.59 40
Brian Hartline - 4.58 40
Austin Collie - 4.63 40
Willie Snead - 4.62 40
Dwayne Bowe - 4.57 40

I'm going to stop there. I don't know why people fall into the same trap every year. This is a kid who burnt Bubba Baker and Marcus Peters on deep balls for TDs in the same game. This is a kid who broke pretty much every receiving record. This is a kid who dominated the Senior Bowl practice week. What more does he need to prove on the field?

As for off of it, that only bolsters his credentials. Read the articles on his approach. It sounds like Marshall Faulk. He learns the offense by learning what everybody else's role and responsibilities are on a given play, so he can execute his responsibilities to the fullest extent. He focuses on always improving his game and not getting static. He spent multiple years at the Manning Passing Academy learning from all the QBs there. Watch the youtube videos where he's asked to analyze film.

I'm completely sold on this kid. I'm head over heels for him. He gets it. He understands what it takes to be a great pro, and you already see the nuances in his game that he'll need to succeed at the next level. He's simply a consistent and reliable player.

We've tried swinging for the fences. It landed us athletes like Quick, Avery, Tavon (to this point), etc. who aren't good football players. I supported Tavon because I projected the skills to come. They haven't. You don't have to do much projecting with Kupp. It's all there. I'd consider him as close to a sure thing as you get. The hell with straight-line speed. There's a reason why the top teams like the Patriots focus so intently on the three cone drill and the short shuttle. They measure functional athleticism.

Quote:
In the 3rd/4th frame Im ok with it. In round 2, no way. However, thats my stance and I understand and respect yours as well.


I'm taking him where I know I can get him. Nobody will care that we got him in the 2nd instead of the 3rd when he's producing 1000 yard seasons.


I agree with your analysis on Kupp. He's my 2nd favorite WR on this class behind Corey Davis. I'm just trying to see if we could pull off a couple extra picks AND draft Kupp as well. If we were to move back 5-6 spots and draft Kupp while obtaining a few extra picks it would be pretty clever, imo.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 69131
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally agreed, RamPackFan.
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