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2017.03.30 - Mock Draft [2.0] CB-EDGE-RB
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CentralFC


Joined: 03 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject: 2017.03.30 - Mock Draft [2.0] CB-EDGE-RB Reply with quote

Green Bay Packers | 2017 Mock Offseason No. 2
03.30.2017

Depart:
T.J. Lang [29, OG]: with Detroit Lions
JC Tretter [26, OL]: with Cleveland Browns
Datone Jones [26, DL]: with Minnesota Vikings
Micah Hyde [26, CB]: with Buffalo Bills
Julius Peppers [36, EDGE]: with Carolina Panthers

*The above departures, minus Bennett’s signing, net us 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th round compensatory selections in 2018.

Retain:
Nick Perry [26, EDGE]
Don Barclay [27, OL]

Acquire:
Martellus Bennett [30, TE]
Lance Kendricks [28, TE]
Ricky Jean-Francois [30, DL]


Draft:
1.01 Cleveland: Myles Garrett | EDGE
1.02 San Francisco: Malik Hooker | FS
1.03 New York Jets: Deshaun Watson | QB (*NYJ sends 1st, 3rd, and 2018 3rd to Chicago for 1.03 & 7.222)

1.04 Jacksonville: Derek Barnett | EDGE
1.05 Tennessee: Solomon Thomas | DE
1.06 Chicago: Jamal Adams | SS
1.07 LA Chargers: Haason Reddick | LB
1.08 Carolina: Marshon Lattimore | CB
1.09 Cincinnati: Reuben Foster | LB
1.10 Buffalo: Marlon Humphrey | CB
1.11 New Orleans: Jonathan Allen | DL
1.12 Washington: Mitch Trubisky | QB (*Washington sends 1st, 3rd and 5th for 1.12 and the chance to take Trubisky ahead of ARI)

1.13 Arizona: Taco Charlton | DE
1.14 Philadelphia: Leonard Fournette | RB
1.15 Indianapolis: Cam Robinson | OT
1.16 Baltimore: O.J. Howard | TE
1.17 Cleveland: John Ross | WR
1.18 Tennessee: Mike Williams | WR
1.19 Tampa Bay: Corey Davis | WR
1.20 Denver: Evan Engram | TE
1.21 Detroit: Jabril Peppers | SS
1.22 Miami: Garrett Bolles | OL
1.23 NY Giants: Ryan Ramczyk | OT
1.24 Oakland: Joe Mixon | RB
1.25 Houston: DeShone Kizer | QB
1.26 Seattle: Antonio Garcia | OL
1.27 Kansas City: Patrick Mahomes | QB
1.28 Dallas: Tak McKinley | EDGE

1.29 Green Bay

1.30 Pittsburgh: Budda Baker | SS
1.31 Atlanta: Malik McDowell | DL
1.32 New Orleans: Tre'Davious White | CB

[1.29] KEVIN KING [Washington | CB | 6-3, 200]



Thompson taps into the Pacific Northwest pipeline once again nabbing the draft class’s preeminent athlete at the corner position. King has some extraordinarily quick hips for a guy his length. The numbers don’t lie, and the agility shows up in the 3-cone and shuttle times. Dude is 6-3, 200, runs a 4.4 with a 39.5" vertical. Arms are equal to Sherman, but King is ten pounds heavier coming out and his 3-cone and shuttle times rank in the 96th and 96th percentile of draft eligible cornerbacks.


I'm sure we all know of him by now, but he's got to go in the top-20, right? Or is this draft class so deep that he conceivably could fall to the late 1.20s? King seems like one of those “late risers” that comes on strong in mid to late April, ends up in the green room in Philadelphia and triggers “shock” from the “experts” when his name is announced ahead of other prominent guys.

Some team will fall in love with the measurables and [might] nab him before we have a shot. He's versatile, played four positions in the secondary, and checks off the character, upside and production boxes. TT loves his Pac-12 guys. King could be another gem.

Add him to the mix, and you have three long corners in House, Gunter, and King. Two shifty, more athletic corners in Randall and Rollins. King excels in zone, and his size and agility will play well in man.

If he adds strength over the next year or two and refines his press technique, which is a common criticism, he could be a top-15 corner in this league. He's not an overtly physical player but he's aggressive. His initial punch isn't great. And his makeup speed from all accounts I've read is questionable, whatever that means when the guy runs a 4.4 and has the hip flexibility and instinct to close.

His tackling is serviceable; he's willing and finishes. His long arms help him wrap up ball carriers, though he's undisciplined and lunges at times.

His ball skills are excellent; he often makes an effort to locate the ball, get his head around and do more than disrupt. Even when he's beat, he's around the ball to wrap up for short gains. Washington had a brilliant defense--probably two top-40 picks and a third who's first round caliber but may drop due to injury. But I think the lynch pin of that group was Kevin King. The guy made some jaw dropping plays.




Since I tend to focus most on what a prospect can do, King is the most athletic, well-rounded, high ceiling option at 1.29. King isn’t just a big dude with speed to boot; he’s in tune with his body type and the opportunities his length affords him to disturb passing lanes and disrupt receivers’ routes. And he's only 22.The awareness is there, too. King doesn’t win on the boundary solely due to his legs and athletic profile. He excels because of instinct.


From NFL.com:
Quote:
STRENGTHS Rare height for the position. Solid job of restricting catch window on routes outside the numbers. Shoves receivers toward boundary and drifts into their running lane to decrease catch opportunity. Length creates challenge for receivers used to winning at the high point. Instinctive with good feel for finding football. Allowed just one touchdown over last 101 targets. Six career interceptions with hands to make the circus pick. Patient from press coverage. Quick to turn and locate once his back is to the quarterback. Saw increase in pass breakups in senior season. Willing to get physical with blocking receivers when it comes time to disengage and make a tackle. Has played all four spots in secondary and slot corner as well.


From CBS:
Quote:
With all due respect to Marcus Peters (No. 18 overall in 2015 by Kansas City), Sidney Jones IV and Budda Baker, the most versatile defender in Washington's talent-laden secondary the past few years was King, who reigned regardless of whether he was asked to line up at safety or cornerback.

Though he starred at cornerback in high school, King initially earned playing for the Huskies at safety, starting 14 (including 12 as a sophomore) games over his first two years with the program. He was asked to slide back to cornerback in 2015 after then-new head coach Chris Petersen booted Peters off the team and earned Honorable Mention All-Pac-12 honors with a career high three interceptions and eight passes defensed. While lining up at cornerback (on the perimeter and inside in nickel), King was again voted to the Honorable Mention squad in 2016, despite recording an eye-popping 15 passes defensed, tie for second best in the conference over the regular season.

STRENGTHS: Offers rare size at cornerback with a lean, tapered frame, including very long limbs. Surprisingly agile in coverage, showing the loose hips to turn and shadow receivers downfield when in press coverage. Will extend an arm but isn't reliant upon landing his initial jam. A cerebral, experienced player often slid inside to play nickel duties against three and four receiver sets. Very good awareness while in zone, anticipating underneath routes and closing quickly downhill to break up passes, often providing a physical pop on contact to jar the ball free. Good hand-eye coordination to sneak his mitt between those of the intended receiver to rip it away as it arrives and has shown good ball skills to record the interception (including a one-handed circus catch in the end zone against Arizona State). Generally a reliable open-field tackler, whose uses his long arms to lasso the legs of ball-carriers. High character player who earned Honorable Mention All-Academic honors as a senior as well as the team's community service award.


TRADE: Seeing quality players falling by the handful, Thompson sends 2.61 to Jacksonville for 3.68 & 5.148. Tom Coughlin’s new administration takes a quarterback to compete with Blake Bortles.



[3.68] JORDAN WILLIS [Kansas State | EDGE | 6-3, 265]
Brings energy, size and agility. Offers outstanding athleticism, if an unrefined set of pass rush moves. Hard charger with supreme effort. Willis immediately reinforces depth at outside linebacker and gives us another guy to rush inside on nickel downs. Needs a year or two to refine his technique. But the numbers are there, the production, and the coaches at Kansas State rave about him. Might be better suited for 4-3 schemes, but the staff in GB has shown a willingness to mold young talent whatever the shape it arrives in. Willis checks off several critical boxes.



Kansas City.com wrote:
In the past week, the senior Kansas State defensive end has been chosen Big 12 Defensive Player of the Year by coaches and media, second-team All-America by Sporting News and Pro Football Focus and third-team All-America by the Associated Press. He also received an invitation to play in the Senior Bowl, the nation’s most prestigious college all-star game.

“It’s been an honor to get all those things,” said Willis, from Rockhurst High and Kansas City. “It just shows what I was talking about at the beginning of the season, wanting to show how much I have improved. It’s always great to receive postseason honors. I am happy.”

And yet, none of it prepared him for the praise Bill Snyder threw his way Tuesday.

“Jordan is the epitome of what our program is all about,” said Snyder, K-State’s longtime coach, at a news conference. “He comes to practice exactly the same way he goes to a ballgame. If you were unaware of the setting you couldn’t tell the difference between what he does on the practice field and what he does on the game field.

“Like I have said so many times, he is a young guy who gives you his very best of every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week. He has learned the value of that and what it has meant to him. He has allowed that to carry over into every aspect of his life. He is going to be a highly successful young guy in a lot of ways, because he is that committed to doing the best that he can.



[3.93] MARLON MACK [South Florida | RB | 6-0, 215]
Home-run hitting back with some wiggle and decent enough size. Could be an excellent number two by the end of 2017. Low-level of competition raises concerns but Green Bay sees Mack’s skillset as conducive to a hurry-up tempo and a zone scheme that relies on vision and patience.


[4.134] TREY HENDRICKSON [Florida Atlantic | EDGE | 6-4, 266]
Here’s another combine star with outstanding measurables. 22.5 sacks since 2015. His 3-cone, shuttle, 40 and vertical are extremely comparable to Solomon Thomas, a consensus top-10 choice this April. Competition level is a concern but the tools are there. Our pass rushing group receives an injection of youth and athleticism between Trey and Willis.


[5.148] TIM PATRICK [Utah | WR | 6-4, 210]
Credit to Cadmus for doing the leg work on this guy. An excellent mid-round addition to add to the receiver group. A different body type as well with eye-popping combine numbers and measurables. Might need a year to develop a la Davis and others, but could be a red zone, physical threat in time.


[5.172] DAMONTAE KAZEE [San Diego State | CB | 5-10, 190]
Aggressive, instinctual corner. Ton of ball skills to boot (see below). Kazee not only offers up the best name on our defense, he immediately shores up the cornerback position, giving us five serviceable corners (Gunter, Randall, Rollins, Lewis and Kazee) and a s- load of competition; with Hyde’s return and the drafting of two young corners, Rollins is in the unique position to either assume Hyde’s multipurpose responsibilities or become trade fodder. Adding King, Kazee and House to the mix gives Green Bay a set of six legitimate cornerbacks.


From CBS:
Quote:
STRENGTHS: Sports a compact, athletic build showing the light feet, balance and loose hips to easily change direction. Confident in press man coverage, showing a low, tight backpedal and smooth turning motion. Good route anticipation and understands angles, keeps his frame between the receiver and the quarterback. Peeks back toward the quarterback and isn't afraid to drop his primary coverage duties to break quickly back to the ball, showing impressive field vision.

Tracks the ball well, exhibiting the body control and concentration to make difficult over-the-shoulder grabs. [u]Excellent hand-eye coordination to punch at the ball (six forced fumbles over his career) and showed exciting development as an interceptor in 2015, turning eight of his career-high 15 passes breakups into interceptions after recording just one in 13 opportunities in 2014.[/u]

Competitive open-field tackler, who aggressively slithers his way past would-be blockers to get into the action. Not an imposing hitter but is a sure tackler who wraps his arms for the secure stop.



[5.182] CONOR McDERMOTT [UCLA | OT/OL | 6-8, 310]
McDermott offers a 6-8, 310 pound frame with tackle experience and a Pac 12 pedigree. His 3-cone (7.52, 80th percentile) and shuttle (4.58, 80) meet TT’s historical benchmarks. Played basketball, tight end and has the feet/agility to offer the pass set we demand from our linemen. Might not cut it out on the edge, but CM offers skills with which Green Bay can work and size/agility they can’t teach.


[6.212] PATRICK RICARD [Maine | DT | 6-3, 285]
Ran two 1.48 10 splits at his pro day. Quick, penetrative defensive linemen. Could be a nice rotational rusher if he adds a bit of weight.
_________________
Matts4313 wrote:
Those are the stats.


Last edited by CentralFC on Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cadmus


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could certainly get on board with the first 3 Picks.

King and Kazee would be quite the duo if we could manage to land both in the draft. I just wish Kazee was a little bit longer (sub 31" arms and 5102 isn't usually a combo for GB), but he has almost everything else they look for.

Who is this Tim Patrick fellow? Wink

Hendrickson is great, but that might be a little low especially after damn near every team in the NFL attended his PD today.

What's your plan with McDermott? Are you planning on Murphy being a full-time Guard moving forward?

I think you could bump Hendrickson up to the Magnuson slot and then take a Packers OL type in Hendrickson's old spot.

Also, don't forget your 7th!

Well done.
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CentralFC


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cadmus wrote:
I could certainly get on board with the first 3 Picks.

King and Kazee would be quite the duo if we could manage to land both in the draft. I just wish Kazee was a little bit longer (sub 31" arms and 5102 isn't usually a combo for GB), but he has almost everything else they look for.

Who is this Tim Patrick fellow? Wink

Hendrickson is great, but that might be a little low especially after damn near every team in the NFL attended his PD today.

What's your plan with McDermott? Are you planning on Murphy being a full-time Guard moving forward?

I think you could bump Hendrickson up to the Magnuson slot and then take a Packers OL type in Hendrickson's old spot.

Also, don't forget your 7th!

Well done.


Yeah I won't even try to guess Thompson's 7th rounders Laughing

I would move McDermott to guard before I move Murphy, but the competition, swing experience and the numbers puts CM in play at four positions. Not sure he's 6-8 (is he?) or if he'll have bend issues at guard.

Magnuson is probably off the board. Numbers aren't right like you suggested.
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Cadmus


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralFC wrote:
Cadmus wrote:
I could certainly get on board with the first 3 Picks.

King and Kazee would be quite the duo if we could manage to land both in the draft. I just wish Kazee was a little bit longer (sub 31" arms and 5102 isn't usually a combo for GB), but he has almost everything else they look for.

Who is this Tim Patrick fellow? Wink

Hendrickson is great, but that might be a little low especially after damn near every team in the NFL attended his PD today.

What's your plan with McDermott? Are you planning on Murphy being a full-time Guard moving forward?

I think you could bump Hendrickson up to the Magnuson slot and then take a Packers OL type in Hendrickson's old spot.

Also, don't forget your 7th!

Well done.


Yeah I won't even try to guess Thompson's 7th rounders Laughing

I would move McDermott to guard before I move Murphy, but the competition, swing experience and the numbers puts CM in play at four positions. Not sure he's 6-8 (is he?) or if he'll have bend issues at guard.

Magnuson is probably off the board. Numbers aren't right like you suggested.


Yeah,

McDermott is all of 6081. Safe to say he's probably not a candidate to move to Guard at that height.

Did you watch your 1st Rd Pick match-up against your 5th Rd Pick (Patrick)?

Patrick was able to get open against King, but that Utah QB has zero touch on 9/10 throws. All of Patrick's big plays in that game were against Jones.

Still think Patrick would have shredded Moreau this season if he had the opportunity.
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gizmo2012


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other than the WR being a head scratcher I love this mock. This year, I don't think the Packers need WR's more than they need OL or DL. Now, with that said, TT loves to pick a WR in his drafts but I'm still thinking not this year. First 4 picks outstanding.
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DraftHobbyist


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the Kevin King pick, but all this trading up and double dipping is way too needs-based and way too much of a panic for my liking. So we put a 1st and 2nd into our CB position two years ago, and now apparently we're putting our 1st and 5th into CB this year, and after re-signing Perry and getting blue-chip player Clay Matthews back as well as putting our 3rd last year into the EDGE, we now put another 3rd and 4th into the EDGE? And as a team with few needs, we're trading down in the 2nd? And then the 53-man roster comes and half these guys get cut because we don't have room for all the players at the positions we overloaded in the Draft on, and we'll be light on depth in other places we decided to pass over.

Sure, we spend a 1st, 1st, 2nd, and 5th on CB in two years, and then WR continues to be a serious long-term concern because we put a 3rd, 5th, and 5th in 3 years, and the 3rd converted to RB, all while our #1 WR is getting old, our #2 is inconsistent and can't carry the team without the #1, and our #3 hasn't been the same since his leg injury that almost ended his career. Oh yeah, and Offense is supposed to be our identity. People seem to forget that (including TT).

Basically, this mock is a very risky mock full of athletes that never put their athleticism together to become football players in college. Now we're hoping they do that in the NFL.
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cooters22


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I'm definitely in the minority here on my response. I hate this mock. If after 3 picks we only had King, Willis and Mack I'd be bitterly disappointed. I'm fine with King but I don't want 2 picks that in my mind are 3rd and 4th round guys. Trading a good 2nd rounder for 2 guys that aren't going to add anything this year isn't what we need to do. I think we need quality right now and not depth. If that all makes sense. I hate the trade. We just didn't get enough. I do appreciate you doing the mock. Love reading them.
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CentralFC


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:
I like the Kevin King pick, but all this trading up and double dipping is way too needs-based and way too much of a panic for my liking. So we put a 1st and 2nd into our CB position two years ago, and now apparently we're putting our 1st and 5th into CB this year, and after re-signing Perry and getting blue-chip player Clay Matthews back as well as putting our 3rd last year into the EDGE, we now put another 3rd and 4th into the EDGE? And as a team with few needs, we're trading down in the 2nd? And then the 53-man roster comes and half these guys get cut because we don't have room for all the players at the positions we overloaded in the Draft on, and we'll be light on depth in other places we decided to pass over.

Sure, we spend a 1st, 1st, 2nd, and 5th on CB in two years, and then WR continues to be a serious long-term concern because we put a 3rd, 5th, and 5th in 3 years, and the 3rd converted to RB, all while our #1 WR is getting old, our #2 is inconsistent and can't carry the team without the #1, and our #3 hasn't been the same since his leg injury that almost ended his career. Oh yeah, and Offense is supposed to be our identity. People seem to forget that (including TT).

Basically, this mock is a very risky mock full of athletes that never put their athleticism together to become football players in college. Now we're hoping they do that in the NFL.


Appreciate the thoughts. I don't disagree with many of the criticisms.

The real issue you're ignoring and I'm emphasizing happened in Jacksonville in September. Shields is gone.

We invested a 1st and 2nd in Randall and Rollins with Shields on the roster. That's how valuable cornerbacks are in a vertical, 11 personnel league. Ok, so Shields goes down. Now we've lost Hayward, Shields, and then our best glue guy leaves for Buffalo and an obscene amount of money. We're looking at an UDFA, Randall, Rollins, House, Goodson, Dorleant and other scraps. Aside from Randall and Rollins being on their extended rookie contracts, we don't really have a "future" at cornerback.

Now I'm in the camp that Randall develops into a fine, if erratic, boundary corner. He's versatile enough to play in the slot if needed. He's a playmaker. But the rest are shaky.

So I don't see an additional first on a premium position in a pass-dominated league as an unreasonable investment. Thompson's proven he can unearth receiving gems on day 2 and 3. I don't see our offense as being in dire straits, either. Nelson has another four years left of high caliber play; he'll move to the slot more frequently but his game will age extremely well and I doubt he leaves for another organization. Cobb might be unreliable but we need another year to judge whether he's part of our future. Adams is a legitimate talent. Top-15/20 potential. He's long-term. Then you have Bennett under contract for three years (likely), Davis, Allison, Janis and Patrick.

I'd much rather balance our offense with a day 2 running back that would probably be a second round pick any other year and then fill out our secondary.

I also disagree about "not putting it together." Willis was the Big 12 DPOY and King excelled with two different coaching staffs and at four different positions. Mack played in a fairly inept offense but flashed big play ability. These guys are more than athletes.

At EDGE, you're acting as if Perry-Matthews-Elliot-Fackrell is sufficient moving forward. What? We rush two on any given play. A season is 16 games. Matthews is 30+ years old, Elliot has a low ceiling and is a focal point of our teams units, and Fackrell is an unproven bag of measurables. We can only really count on Perry at this point, and even that's an issue given his injury history. You add Willis to the mix and you give the defensive coaching staff some breathing room. If any one of those above four go down, and we don't have a day 1 or 2 pick to reinforce depth, play 30-40 snaps in a few games and make a couple of plays, we're f-. Period.

Basically your criticism boils down to adding too many players to two premium positions where you need a rotation or stable of guys for your unit to thrive. Cornerback and EDGE are crucial. We're thin at both, slow and lumbering at both (for the most part), and the guys have questionable ceilings save Perry and Randall. Willis and King offer our staff a lot of athleticism and pop for a defense that missed it sorely in 2016.

Edit: I also think we might see more wheeling and dealing than usual because of the compensatory picks being in play. That, coupled with next year's coming crop of compensatory rewards makes this year far more enigmatic than normal. Given the absence of talent at OL and QB, I also see some teams moving up to grab guys as talented EDGE/CB prospects fall (for whatever reason--it happens every year).
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DavidatMIZZOU


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gizmo2012 wrote:
Other than the WR being a head scratcher I love this mock. This year, I don't think the Packers need WR's more than they need OL or DL. Now, with that said, TT loves to pick a WR in his drafts but I'm still thinking not this year. First 4 picks outstanding.


Adams, Janis, Allison, Goodley, and Waters are free agents in 2018. Nelson and Cobb are free agents in 2019, and have huge cap hits. A later WR with some potential is not a bad idea.
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My god it must be so terrible to have three teams that consistently make the playoffs

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gizmo2012


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidatMIZZOU wrote:
gizmo2012 wrote:
Other than the WR being a head scratcher I love this mock. This year, I don't think the Packers need WR's more than they need OL or DL. Now, with that said, TT loves to pick a WR in his drafts but I'm still thinking not this year. First 4 picks outstanding.


Adams, Janis, Allison, Goodley, and Waters are free agents in 2018. Nelson and Cobb are free agents in 2019, and have huge cap hits. A later WR with some potential is not a bad idea.


I think turnover every few years or re-signings are always there. I am just saying after losing 3 key OL's since last off season that TT might want to draft more then 1 OL in this draft, and my thinking is TT may forego drafting a WR this year. You might be right.
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CentralFC


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gizmo2012 wrote:
DavidatMIZZOU wrote:
gizmo2012 wrote:
Other than the WR being a head scratcher I love this mock. This year, I don't think the Packers need WR's more than they need OL or DL. Now, with that said, TT loves to pick a WR in his drafts but I'm still thinking not this year. First 4 picks outstanding.


Adams, Janis, Allison, Goodley, and Waters are free agents in 2018. Nelson and Cobb are free agents in 2019, and have huge cap hits. A later WR with some potential is not a bad idea.


I think turnover every few years or re-signings are always there. I am just saying after losing 3 key OL's since last off season that TT might want to draft more then 1 OL in this draft, and my thinking is TT may forego drafting a WR this year. You might be right.


Problem is, a lot of the top-tier OL in this class are going in round one and two, and that's probably too high for us to even consider. Maybe Lamp is a dark horse in the early second round but we have more pressing needs.

Listen, we put up 560 points in 2011 with Marshall Newhouse starting 13 games. I imagine we'll survive with slightly worse guard play as long as we have our book-end guys.
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DraftHobbyist


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralFC wrote:
Appreciate the thoughts. I don't disagree with many of the criticisms.

The real issue you're ignoring and I'm emphasizing happened in Jacksonville in September. Shields is gone.

We invested a 1st and 2nd in Randall and Rollins with Shields on the roster. That's how valuable cornerbacks are in a vertical, 11 personnel league. Ok, so Shields goes down. Now we've lost Hayward, Shields, and then our best glue guy leaves for Buffalo and an obscene amount of money. We're looking at an UDFA, Randall, Rollins, House, Goodson, Dorleant and other scraps. Aside from Randall and Rollins being on their extended rookie contracts, we don't really have a "future" at cornerback.

Now I'm in the camp that Randall develops into a fine, if erratic, boundary corner. He's versatile enough to play in the slot if needed. He's a playmaker. But the rest are shaky.

So I don't see an additional first on a premium position in a pass-dominated league as an unreasonable investment. Thompson's proven he can unearth receiving gems on day 2 and 3. I don't see our offense as being in dire straits, either. Nelson has another four years left of high caliber play; he'll move to the slot more frequently but his game will age extremely well and I doubt he leaves for another organization. Cobb might be unreliable but we need another year to judge whether he's part of our future. Adams is a legitimate talent. Top-15/20 potential. He's long-term. Then you have Bennett under contract for three years (likely), Davis, Allison, Janis and Patrick.

I'd much rather balance our offense with a day 2 running back that would probably be a second round pick any other year and then fill out our secondary.

I also disagree about "not putting it together." Willis was the Big 12 DPOY and King excelled with two different coaching staffs and at four different positions. Mack played in a fairly inept offense but flashed big play ability. These guys are more than athletes.

At EDGE, you're acting as if Perry-Matthews-Elliot-Fackrell is sufficient moving forward. What? We rush two on any given play. A season is 16 games. Matthews is 30+ years old, Elliot has a low ceiling and is a focal point of our teams units, and Fackrell is an unproven bag of measurables. We can only really count on Perry at this point, and even that's an issue given his injury history. You add Willis to the mix and you give the defensive coaching staff some breathing room. If any one of those above four go down, and we don't have a day 1 or 2 pick to reinforce depth, play 30-40 snaps in a few games and make a couple of plays, we're f-. Period.

Basically your criticism boils down to adding too many players to two premium positions where you need a rotation or stable of guys for your unit to thrive. Cornerback and EDGE are crucial. We're thin at both, slow and lumbering at both (for the most part), and the guys have questionable ceilings save Perry and Randall. Willis and King offer our staff a lot of athleticism and pop for a defense that missed it sorely in 2016.

Edit: I also think we might see more wheeling and dealing than usual because of the compensatory picks being in play. That, coupled with next year's coming crop of compensatory rewards makes this year far more enigmatic than normal. Given the absence of talent at OL and QB, I also see some teams moving up to grab guys as talented EDGE/CB prospects fall (for whatever reason--it happens every year).


No, I'm not ignoring Shields being gone at all. We lost Shields, brought in House. Randall will likely be our #1, House our #2, and Rollins our #3 with two pretty dang good S's in HHCD and Burnett. Beyond that is deep depth. So you bring in a 1st Rounder, which I don't think it's necessary to bring in a guy in the 1st but we it's not overkill either, and then it's really the double dip later that I think is the overkill. I'm not sure where you got the idea I was ignoring the loss of Shields. But come on, you mention Dorleant and Goodson but ignore Gunter? Also, Hawkins is an athletic guy who is developing as well. I understand why you wouldn't rely on Hawkins, but Gunter has some real experience now going up against some of the best WR's in the NFL. He can't handle them, but some day I think he could be a #2 CB. And btw, Gunter, Randall, Rollins, House, Hawkins, Goodson, and Dorleant is 7 names. Your 1st and 5th make 9. So how many of these guys are we keeping? Last year we kept 6 and in 2015 we kept 7, so lets say 7, and cut 2 of those guys. So maybe we cut Dorleant and Hawkins and put in your 5th Rounder and I'm not really sure how we got better.

I'm also surprised you overlook the WR need to such an extent. Moving Nelson to the slot more is a big, big problem. Cobb is only effective in the slot. Adams, while you say he has Top 15-20 potential, all he has shown is that he is a #2 that can't carry the team as the #1 WR. Nelson is also more likely to have injuries as he gets older, and WR is a position you can play 5 at a time if you have the talent and desire to. And again, these WR's are becoming overpaid where we need leverage against them to get their cost down or possibly cut them, while Adams has a contract coming up somewhat soon. It really seems like you are applying one standard to CB's and another to WR's, where you aren't considering a guy like Evans or even Gunter to be anything more than the scrap heap, but then you consider guys like Davis, Janis, etc. to be potential long-term answers. I'm even a fan of Davis, but it's too early to rely on him as the answer, and Janis has actually proven that he can't ever be a WR.

Being the Big 12 DPOY is meaningless. The Big 12 sucks at Defense, and awards do not project well. Look at how many Heisman winners fail. Those awards are about college, not the pros, and they are given out in highly questionable fashion.

On Edge, I think Perry, Matthews, Fackrell, and Elliott absolutely is sufficient for our 1st and 2nd string EDGE guys. Then add in Draft pick and have some UDFA's fight to keep a 6th spot, if nobody steps up, you go with 5 (as we did in 2015). But you add a 3rd and 4th Round pick while we have no 2nd Rounder to add this depth. These guys are not likely to see the field much. I'd much rather add a guy this year and a guy next year. You keep acting like I have a problem with adding an EDGE or adding a CB and that was never the case. My problem is your double dipping while ignoring other positions. Notice how you'll talk about Willis who you must like a lot, but you don't talk about Hendrickson.

The other thing about your mock, is you make a lot of double dipping picks, but you don't get any "other" positions I'll call them. You aren't grabbing that FB or that P or K or QB. We like to grab one of those a year, and I think it's a great year to grab a QB to start training them up for the eventual loss of Hundley and to give Callahan some competition. There's always more QB depth than people realize, because the media and Draft Twitter doesn't concentrate on the deep QB depth for the most part.
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Shanedorf


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:

The other thing about your mock, is you make a lot of double dipping picks


The Packers have a history of double dipping their picks so Central's mock is harmonized with the Packers' past performances in the draft.
Thompson is all about competition and he uttered this phrase to describe his philosophy: " Quantity begets Quality through competition"
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CentralFC


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:
CentralFC wrote:
Appreciate the thoughts. I don't disagree with many of the criticisms.

The real issue you're ignoring and I'm emphasizing happened in Jacksonville in September. Shields is gone.

We invested a 1st and 2nd in Randall and Rollins with Shields on the roster. That's how valuable cornerbacks are in a vertical, 11 personnel league. Ok, so Shields goes down. Now we've lost Hayward, Shields, and then our best glue guy leaves for Buffalo and an obscene amount of money. We're looking at an UDFA, Randall, Rollins, House, Goodson, Dorleant and other scraps. Aside from Randall and Rollins being on their extended rookie contracts, we don't really have a "future" at cornerback.

Now I'm in the camp that Randall develops into a fine, if erratic, boundary corner. He's versatile enough to play in the slot if needed. He's a playmaker. But the rest are shaky.

So I don't see an additional first on a premium position in a pass-dominated league as an unreasonable investment. Thompson's proven he can unearth receiving gems on day 2 and 3. I don't see our offense as being in dire straits, either. Nelson has another four years left of high caliber play; he'll move to the slot more frequently but his game will age extremely well and I doubt he leaves for another organization. Cobb might be unreliable but we need another year to judge whether he's part of our future. Adams is a legitimate talent. Top-15/20 potential. He's long-term. Then you have Bennett under contract for three years (likely), Davis, Allison, Janis and Patrick.

I'd much rather balance our offense with a day 2 running back that would probably be a second round pick any other year and then fill out our secondary.

I also disagree about "not putting it together." Willis was the Big 12 DPOY and King excelled with two different coaching staffs and at four different positions. Mack played in a fairly inept offense but flashed big play ability. These guys are more than athletes.

At EDGE, you're acting as if Perry-Matthews-Elliot-Fackrell is sufficient moving forward. What? We rush two on any given play. A season is 16 games. Matthews is 30+ years old, Elliot has a low ceiling and is a focal point of our teams units, and Fackrell is an unproven bag of measurables. We can only really count on Perry at this point, and even that's an issue given his injury history. You add Willis to the mix and you give the defensive coaching staff some breathing room. If any one of those above four go down, and we don't have a day 1 or 2 pick to reinforce depth, play 30-40 snaps in a few games and make a couple of plays, we're f-. Period.

Basically your criticism boils down to adding too many players to two premium positions where you need a rotation or stable of guys for your unit to thrive. Cornerback and EDGE are crucial. We're thin at both, slow and lumbering at both (for the most part), and the guys have questionable ceilings save Perry and Randall. Willis and King offer our staff a lot of athleticism and pop for a defense that missed it sorely in 2016.

Edit: I also think we might see more wheeling and dealing than usual because of the compensatory picks being in play. That, coupled with next year's coming crop of compensatory rewards makes this year far more enigmatic than normal. Given the absence of talent at OL and QB, I also see some teams moving up to grab guys as talented EDGE/CB prospects fall (for whatever reason--it happens every year).


No, I'm not ignoring Shields being gone at all. We lost Shields, brought in House. Randall will likely be our #1, House our #2, and Rollins our #3 with two pretty dang good S's in HHCD and Burnett. Beyond that is deep depth. So you bring in a 1st Rounder, which I don't think it's necessary to bring in a guy in the 1st but we it's not overkill either, and then it's really the double dip later that I think is the overkill. I'm not sure where you got the idea I was ignoring the loss of Shields. But come on, you mention Dorleant and Goodson but ignore Gunter? Also, Hawkins is an athletic guy who is developing as well. I understand why you wouldn't rely on Hawkins, but Gunter has some real experience now going up against some of the best WR's in the NFL. He can't handle them, but some day I think he could be a #2 CB. And btw, Gunter, Randall, Rollins, House, Hawkins, Goodson, and Dorleant is 7 names. Your 1st and 5th make 9. So how many of these guys are we keeping? Last year we kept 6 and in 2015 we kept 7, so lets say 7, and cut 2 of those guys. So maybe we cut Dorleant and Hawkins and put in your 5th Rounder and I'm not really sure how we got better.

I'm also surprised you overlook the WR need to such an extent. Moving Nelson to the slot more is a big, big problem. Cobb is only effective in the slot. Adams, while you say he has Top 15-20 potential, all he has shown is that he is a #2 that can't carry the team as the #1 WR. Nelson is also more likely to have injuries as he gets older, and WR is a position you can play 5 at a time if you have the talent and desire to. And again, these WR's are becoming overpaid where we need leverage against them to get their cost down or possibly cut them, while Adams has a contract coming up somewhat soon. It really seems like you are applying one standard to CB's and another to WR's, where you aren't considering a guy like Evans or even Gunter to be anything more than the scrap heap, but then you consider guys like Davis, Janis, etc. to be potential long-term answers. I'm even a fan of Davis, but it's too early to rely on him as the answer, and Janis has actually proven that he can't ever be a WR.

Being the Big 12 DPOY is meaningless. The Big 12 sucks at Defense, and awards do not project well. Look at how many Heisman winners fail. Those awards are about college, not the pros, and they are given out in highly questionable fashion.

On Edge, I think Perry, Matthews, Fackrell, and Elliott absolutely is sufficient for our 1st and 2nd string EDGE guys. Then add in Draft pick and have some UDFA's fight to keep a 6th spot, if nobody steps up, you go with 5 (as we did in 2015). But you add a 3rd and 4th Round pick while we have no 2nd Rounder to add this depth. These guys are not likely to see the field much. I'd much rather add a guy this year and a guy next year. You keep acting like I have a problem with adding an EDGE or adding a CB and that was never the case. My problem is your double dipping while ignoring other positions. Notice how you'll talk about Willis who you must like a lot, but you don't talk about Hendrickson.

The other thing about your mock, is you make a lot of double dipping picks, but you don't get any "other" positions I'll call them. You aren't grabbing that FB or that P or K or QB. We like to grab one of those a year, and I think it's a great year to grab a QB to start training them up for the eventual loss of Hundley and to give Callahan some competition. There's always more QB depth than people realize, because the media and Draft Twitter doesn't concentrate on the deep QB depth for the most part.


I didn't "ignore" anyone. I listed an UDFA--that would be Gunter.

Double dipping is the way to go when it's a premium and you have serious inexperience.

No, I'm not grabbing a FB. I'm definitely not grabbing a P or K. QB might be a possibility but I highly doubt it since we have Hundley for two years and Callahan earning Mac's praise.

Willis-Hendrickson-Perry-Fackrell gives us four rushers with upside. Elliot is a teams guy with a low ceiling, so I don't count him in that stable of rushers. Matthews is likely to be playing inside and outside, and he's 30+ years old. We lost Peppers, we lost Jones and Perry's frequently on the injury report. The above isn't overkill whatsoever.

All Adams has shown is he can't carry the team? That's all? Nothing else? Hasn't shown one positive thing--just that he can't "carry" the team on a severely sprained ankle as a second year player without a legitimate threat on the opposite side? Ok. Good to know.

You're not sure how we get better at cornerback by adding King/Kazee to House, Randall, Gunter, and Rollins (and likely one or two of Hawkins/Dorleant/Goodson)? I fail to see how we don't get better.

Rollins or Brice or Hawkins will see snaps at safety. You can guarantee that. Especially with Burnett taking more of a rover role.

How can you say with a straight face "we might play five receivers, so more receivers are necessary," but base your criticism on "double-dipping" at a position that would have to cover those receivers you mention playing five of at a time? Doesn't that seem a little odd to you, especially when our CB depth is atrocious compared to our receiving talent?

You add talent where you can. Adding two stud CBs in a class that's oozing cornerback play is a smart investment. It's a passing league. We don't have a legitimate no. 1. Push comes to shove and we trot out Randall-House-King with Rollins, Gunter, and Kazee/Goodson/Hawkins pushing the envelope.

Lastly, you do realize, right, that these guys will play special teams, too? And adding someone with speed (CB) is a good thing for the team whether he starts or not. The above group makes our team better. Adding a third quarterback to challenge Joe Freaking Callahan or a punter/kicker or a fifth/sixth receiver makes no sense.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:

No, I'm not ignoring Shields being gone at all. We lost Shields, brought in House.


Also, this is a gigantic problem, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know that.
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