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DraftHobbyist's 2017 Prospect Positional Ranking Unveil
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DraftHobbyist


Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Posts: 349
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
Love to hear your thoughts on Connor McDermott and Adam Bisnowaty. With how bad this tackle class is, I am looking for some hope. Bisnowaty to me has horrible technique, but I am trying to decide if a lot of that is coaching. McDermott I worry about his leverage


On OT Conor McDermott UCLA, he has a good shuffle, plays with good upper body strength (which helps him recover), he uses his hands well, and I had in my notes that he has good zone/combo blocking. He does have some faults. An NFL scout apparently said he doesn't have the core strength to succeed in the NFL, but that can be improved IMO, and his feet/shuffle are very good. I see him as a good prospect, much better than most other people do. Oh, and he has long arms (34 3/4") and big hands (11"), too. Preferably I'd put him in a ZBS.
on OT Adam Bisnowaty PITT, he's a tough one. He has solid pass-blocking, but he whiffs a lot, especially at the 2nd level/open field blocking. With 33 7/8" arms and 11 3/8" hands (6'6" 304 lbs btw), he has the tools. PITT actually moved him around from LT to RT for important plays so they clearly viewed him as their best OL. I think he plays more athletically than his Combine numbers show. He's not dominant in the run game, and I think he also has some core strength issues (but not as bad), but overall there is something to work with here. I view these guys as pretty similar and would also like to see Bisnowaty in the ZBS.

EDIT: To address your comment about leverage, I do agree that he plays too high, which is partly a product of being 6'8". I think it really comes down to how much do you think he can improve that leverage and how much do you think his recovery ability can help him at the next level. I see a guy that might not get it done pretty, but I think he'll find ways to get it done.

And on Bisnowaty's technique, they moved him around and he was in and out with injuries, which probably lead to some of it. Overall, I usually lean towards technique can be improved so give me a body I can work with. Is your team a ZBS or MBS?
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DraftHobbyist


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just so everybody knows, when I did these rankings I didn't have any Foreman times. He'll move up considerably with his Pro Day results. Other players that didn't have Combine times may move up or down with their Pro Day results as well.
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Calvert28


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you get the chance. Might want to touch up your post with the spaces between positions. Bolded position names, underlined important info you think should be read. Its a great read, I just think it would help with the discussion your trying to generate with your opinions.
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GeneralDissaray wrote:
mozwanted wrote:
I don't agree with the pick.Bad teams pick rb's with a top 5 pick.
Moz, bad teams pick in the top 5.That's the way the draft works.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calvert28 wrote:
When you get the chance. Might want to touch up your post with the spaces between positions. Bolded position names, underlined important info you think should be read. Its a great read, I just think it would help with the discussion your trying to generate with your opinions.


I would agree. My first thought when i started was how difficult it was to read
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Calvert28


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:
Just so everybody knows, when I did these rankings I didn't have any Foreman times. He'll move up considerably with his Pro Day results. Other players that didn't have Combine times may move up or down with their Pro Day results as well.


I think Foreman might have the chance to move himself up into No.1 overall for RB's. Might be the surprise pick of the first day.

Nothing Fournette did blew anyone away. If anything he hurt his stock a little. There are still questions about McCafferys build in terms of being a 3 down back. Same with Cook and his off the field issues, each and every prospect looks to have different knocks on them. But Foreman seems to have done everything perfectly with the way he has set himself up.

Trimming 20 pounds to prove he was able to be a 3 down back, running an unbelievable 40 even if it was at a proday. Did excellent catching, had a very impressive last season that was Heisman contention worthy. I mean he has done absolutely nothing to give people pause on him for a 2nd look. He just keeps answering doubt with better and better performances and decisions this offseason.
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GeneralDissaray wrote:
mozwanted wrote:
I don't agree with the pick.Bad teams pick rb's with a top 5 pick.
Moz, bad teams pick in the top 5.That's the way the draft works.
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DraftHobbyist


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
Calvert28 wrote:
When you get the chance. Might want to touch up your post with the spaces between positions. Bolded position names, underlined important info you think should be read. Its a great read, I just think it would help with the discussion your trying to generate with your opinions.


I would agree. My first thought when i started was how difficult it was to read


Thanks for letting me know. For now, I just added a space between all of the positions. That should help quite a bit. Maybe I'll do more formatting later.
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DraftHobbyist


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what I don't get? Brad Kaaya used to be a 1st Round projection. Now, according to Mel Kiper, he's a 3rd Round guy that Kiper likes. Why not just keep him as a 1st-2nd Rounder instead of dropping him to the 3rd and then falling in love with the guy? I wouldn't be shocked if Kaaya went in the 1st, but there's certainly no guarantee. I'd be surprised if he fell out of Day 2.
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oldman9er


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

- I have Marcus Maye higher.
- Tankersley, White, A Jackson, and Q Wilson are way too low.
- Jarrad Davis >>> Cunningham
- I'd move Taco, Bowser and Hendrickson up some.

- I have Mack, McNichols, and Dayes higher.
- I'd swap Henderson up and Dupree down, and I'm a big LSU fan.
- Zay Jones >>> Darboh and Noah Brown.
- Evan Engram is too low.

I like that you give Ben Braden more love than most.

Some head scratchers for me, but all in all, it's not so bad. I like to compare, so thanks for posting this.
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DraftHobbyist


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldman9er wrote:
- I have Marcus Maye higher.
- Tankersley, White, A Jackson, and Q Wilson are way too low.
- Jarrad Davis >>> Cunningham
- I'd move Taco, Bowser and Hendrickson up some.

- I have Mack, McNichols, and Dayes higher.
- I'd swap Henderson up and Dupree down, and I'm a big LSU fan.
- Zay Jones >>> Darboh and Noah Brown.
- Evan Engram is too low.

I like that you give Ben Braden more love than most.

Some head scratchers for me, but all in all, it's not so bad. I like to compare, so thanks for posting this.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts. What is your reasoning behind these thoughts?

These are rankings of how I like guys, not how I think the NFL does, just to make that clear. I think that shows up with guys like Evan Engram. I'm not a big fan of those WR/TE hybrids. I do have him relatively highly, though, like a Day 2 pick.

On the CB's, I realized I forgot to drop Tabor due to his Combine/Pro Day results on this sheet, so I updated it. He went from 7th to 16th. The issue I have with what you're saying about CB is that you're telling me I have 4 CB's too way too low. I mean, if I move all of them up none of them are really moving up very much. Also consider that I didn't consider injuries or character concerns, and Sidney Jones, Fabian Moreau, and Desmond King are all dropped on a lot of rankings due to injury. I think when you consider all of that, our rankings probably aren't that far off. I guess I'd need to know why you want your CB's higher.

Jarrad Davis vs Zach Cunningham is very interesting. We don't have all of the numbers for Davis, but he's very athletic from what he produced. On tape, they are very close as well. Cunningham gets lost in coverage mentally, but Davis makes all sorts of mental mistakes with very stupid personal fouls. In the end, Cunningham shows more potential for upside to me despite the athletic numbers difference. I really don't have a problem with having Davis higher than Cunningham, though.

On Taco, I'm not a big fan of those 275 lb tweeners in general. Taco just didn't have enough bend for me. Bowser is put into coverage a lot, but I felt he also got beat a lot. He did have a good 3-cone, but I think he's raw and needs work as a football player. For Hendrickson, he needs a lot of work. His speed-rush and spin passing rushing moves were ineffective from what I saw.

McNichols is too small for me. On Mack, I actually like him, but how much do you like him? I was seeing him as probably a 3rd Rounder. Lots of good RB's this year.

On Henderson, I'm not a huge fan. Firstly, I think I put more value on height in general than you do. But secondly, if there is going to be a shorter guy, I want him to be quick and cut well. Henderson's 40 is really just okay for his size and his 3-cone is actually kind of bad. I want to see that at least under 7.0. And what really bothers me is he ran that bad 3-cone and he doesn't even try to improve it, which means that is really what he is. Dupre is just generally more athletic with more size to him.

On Noah Brown, I'm a lover. I know I'm going to be way higher on him than a lot of people. Most people don't seem to value WR blocking, but I really do, and Noah Brown is an absolute eraser. He could actually bulk up and play a hybrid TE role if you wanted him to, but he can be an absolutely devastating blocker from the outside as well. When a WR blocks as well as Brown does, CB's don't want to engage and long runs/quick passes can be sprung. I encourage everyone to go watch his tape exclusively for the blocking. He does possess good WR traits, though, so he's not just a blocker, and I think the Ohio St system/QB's hurt him. I was also satisfied with his 4.57 40 at 222 lbs. It's likely Brown isn't drafted lower than I like him, which means I really want the Packers to get him.

Darboh is a guy who does a lot of little things well. He fights back to the ball, he runs good routes, he uses his body well to block out defenders when making a catch. He doesn't need to be open to be open. He also tested in the mid-4.4's, which is actually a little faster than I expected.

Zay Jones, he isn't bad. I feel he needs some work making sharper cuts instead of rounding routes. That's an absolute killer at the next level. He also loses focus in traffic, and he was depended on to carry on the team at East Carolina, but he just couldn't. He racked up a lot of yards, but it didn't result in many wins. That's really a problem for me because it means a lot of his yards are schematically manufactured. And honestly, a lot of the teams East Carolina lost to weren't that good, but they still got blown out quite often with only 3 wins. He was a solid tester, didn't really wow in anything, has somewhat small hands but big enough, but yet I feel that his test numbers don't completely translate to the field because he's not refined enough. I'm talking about things like how he does round his routes. I don't hate him, though.

What are the real head-scratchers for you? I'm very interested in hearing those.
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Ragnarok


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Go Packers

2. Awesome work on this. Lot of effort put in. You should look into the BDL league in the Fantasy/Sim/GM subforum, I think you'd be into it.

3. A few questions regarding your rankings.
CB - Why so low on Humphrey, Adoree, and Jourdan Lewis? Lewis in particular I'm a big fan of. He's a slot guy only, but I think he has excellent instincts and Chris Harris, Jr-type potential.
Edge - I like Barnett more than you, but Taco is the one I'm surprised to see that low. He has a good chance to go top-15 due to his measurables. What on tape pushes him that far down?
DT - Why so high on Qualls and Ogunjobi? I don't think I've ever seen either of them ranked so high by anyone, so I'm curious as to the reasoning.
OT - I hate Roderick Johnson, but you already discussed him.
OG - Why Braden so high?
OL - There are multiple guys with the potential to play numerous positions on the OL. Which one do you think has the best flexibility? I think Dawkins or Moton, but curious as to your thoughts.
RB - I have Kamara and Foreman higher than Hunt, Connor, and Mack, but this RB class is so good it's anyone's guess.
QB - I disagree strongly on Kayaa and Kizer. But you explained that ranking which does make some sense.
TE - You explained your rankings, but I think Engram is a better blocker than people give him credit for. And his athleticism is insane. I have him #2 behind Howard. I think Njoku is more athlete than TE right now. That said, I love Butt, Hodges, and Kittle. All three will be great value in the draft.

Thanks!
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DraftHobbyist


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragnarok wrote:
1. Go Packers

2. Awesome work on this. Lot of effort put in. You should look into the BDL league in the Fantasy/Sim/GM subforum, I think you'd be into it.

3. A few questions regarding your rankings.
CB - Why so low on Humphrey, Adoree, and Jourdan Lewis? Lewis in particular I'm a big fan of. He's a slot guy only, but I think he has excellent instincts and Chris Harris, Jr-type potential.
Edge - I like Barnett more than you, but Taco is the one I'm surprised to see that low. He has a good chance to go top-15 due to his measurables. What on tape pushes him that far down?
DT - Why so high on Qualls and Ogunjobi? I don't think I've ever seen either of them ranked so high by anyone, so I'm curious as to the reasoning.
OT - I hate Roderick Johnson, but you already discussed him.
OG - Why Braden so high?
OL - There are multiple guys with the potential to play numerous positions on the OL. Which one do you think has the best flexibility? I think Dawkins or Moton, but curious as to your thoughts.
RB - I have Kamara and Foreman higher than Hunt, Connor, and Mack, but this RB class is so good it's anyone's guess.
QB - I disagree strongly on Kayaa and Kizer. But you explained that ranking which does make some sense.
TE - You explained your rankings, but I think Engram is a better blocker than people give him credit for. And his athleticism is insane. I have him #2 behind Howard. I think Njoku is more athlete than TE right now. That said, I love Butt, Hodges, and Kittle. All three will be great value in the draft.

Thanks!


Thanks for the great questions! I can tell you know your stuff but what you asked.

CB: With Lewis, he's short, light, and lacks great testing numbers. Being a slot is a limitation, and he got beat more than people make it out to be. Pretty much everybody above him has better size. I do agree with you that he has good instincts, though. Adoree same problem with the height and weight, and he didn't do all of his testing, which really bothered me. If I'm taking a guy that small, I want to know his 3-cone or at least his 20S. My guess is he didn't run the agility drills because he wouldn't do them well. Humphrey is the most interesting of the 3 to me, but I have some worries about his ability to fight for the ball in the air. I've seen him lose contain on the outside which can lead to big runs, strength looked like a bit of a weakness, and his 10 bench press isn't horrible, but is a sign that he probably does lack a little strength. I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt on much, either, because he didn't do the 20S or the VJ, and given that I have some concerns of his ability to fight for balls on the air, that worries me. His BJ wasn't that great. Humphrey is a good prospect and relatively high for me, but I think when you start nitpicking him, he's more of a Day 2 guy than a Day 1 guy.

EDGE: On Taco Charlton, basically I hate those 275 tweeners, and that's what Taco is. A lot of times they don't have the speed/bend to be a speed rusher and don't have the strength to be a dominant power rusher. Their athleticism tends to look better than it is but has a tough time translating to the NFL (but this isn't always true and sometimes these tweeners turn into versatile freaks). According to SPARQ, Taco is in the 40%-45% range at the EDGE position. If you move him to DL than it's closer to 65%, so he's really not an athletic freak. He's also mainly a one-year producer, which is a bit of a problem. If you're limiting me to the tape, I see exactly what I expect out of a highly-rated tweener. He lacked bend to be a speed-rusher and lacked strength to be a power rusher. I thought he was selling out and sacrificing his responsibilities at times and lacking play recognition on plays like screens. He had very good burst, but then he couldn't really do anything with it on most plays. I just re-watched a bit of the Penn St game and saw a lot of what I'm talking about early.

DT: With Ogunjobi, he has burst, play recognition, and he uses his hands well. Being from Charlotte he has some leverage stuff to work on, but I'm actually quite impressed with how he's trying to do a lot of the right things. Just in my experiences from following the Draft, guys who come from smaller schools tend to do worse in timing and are able to improve strength the most while having further to go on the mental side of the game. Well, he tested well athletically, he is a little weak but not too bad and I think it can be improved, and he the mental side of the game is not nearly as important for DL's as other positions. Ogunjobi has some good burst, but he has got to get his pad level down.
On Qualls, he's a stump that can move surprisingly well. His body type helps him with leverage and he has strength to go with it. He's not much of a threat on passing downs, but he can be dominant on stopping the run as a true NT, and I think these guys tend to get underrated. He can shed really well, too, so I think he could really be good along the goal line or 3rd/4th and short. Also, keep in mind that there aren't many very good interior DL's this year, so even if these guys go where I have them slotted, that might still not be very highly. I don't have them as 1st Rounders.

OG: Ben Braden is strong and uses his hands well. I really like his run-blocking, but I think his pass-blocking needs a little work. The main thing is I question his shuffle, which is probably why he's projected as an OG (I didn't choose positions for these guys I went with projections from elsewhere). I'd like to see a team try him at RT because he does have a solid first step that might help him make up enough for that lack of shuffle, but if it doesn't work out, if he can go to a team where they like those oversized interior OL's then Braden would be a great fit. He does have those 34" arms for OT. And Braden was Michigan's LT which often signifies they think he's the best OL on their team, and that's despite being a better run-blocker than pass-blocker, so that gives some hope.

OL: For OL versatility, how about a guy like Isaac Asiata? I think he needs development to block at the 2nd level better and stop whiffing so much, but he's 6'3" with 33 3/4" arms. That might be tall and long enough enough to get it done on the outside without being so tall that he loses leverage inside. He also has great strength. His feet aren't fantastic but might be good enough to get it done. I mean, he out-tested a bunch of guys who were 20-30 lbs lighter than him. He has some bloodlines, too, being the cousin of RB Matt Asiata. He would probably be more versatile in a MBS than a ZBS, though, so it depends on the scheme. The problem with choosing Asiata is usually versatile guys aren't OG's in college, they are OT's in college. There's 2 guys I'm going to try to watch tonight or tomorrow that might fit the bill more for a ZBS. If they do, I'll let you know. I like your choices, though, especially Dawkins. In general, I don't think there is a lot in terms of OL versatility in this class, and I think that's why people are searching so hard to find some.

RB: Foreman threw me for a loop with his smaller size and great athleticism. Trimming down could really help him as a player, but it's hard because he played so much bigger and looked pretty sluggish and unathletic to me. I also wonder if he has weight issues long-term. He's a tough one. Kamara is tough, too, because of his lack of production. That's why I'm keeping him down. I'd rather pass and miss on a good prospect than take him and miss on a bad prospect. I never really thought he was dominant on film, I actually think his hands are a little overrated (saw him double catching quite a few balls), and I also felt his times were good-but-not-elite. If I'm taking a RB/WR hybrid I want him to be elite athletically. And how many teams really want the hybrid when Samuel is probably better than Kamara (although Kamara can block better I think)? Both these guys are tough.

QB: I want to address QB a bit. A lot of people really value, and IMO overvalue, arm strength. I value things like ball placement and having some mechanics already in place to work with. So I think what creates a major gap in my rankings and that of others is the difference in valuing arm strength. Oh, and a lot of people think arm strength is a trait that you either have or don't, but I think it's something that can be improved with weightlifting and mechanics.

TE: On Njoku, I got cold on him after the Combine, but then he improved at his Pro Day so I'm back on board with him going highly. Apparently, Eric Saubert of Drake performed pretty well at the Iowa St Pro Day and he was actually hoping for better than the 4.65 40 he put up. He has pretty nice all-around numbers: http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/sports/college/drake/drake-bulldogs/2017/03/28/nfl-draft-2017-tight-ends-eric-saubert-drake-football/99743482/ Overall, I think Butt has been forgotten about and Leggett is underrated. He's not an athletic beast, but he does a lot very well that isn't on the stopwatch. It's important to note that Leggett is very polished while many of these athletes are small school guys like Saubert, Shaheen or even guys like Jonnu Smith, Gerald Everett, and Michael Roberts. These smaller school athletes carry lots of risk.
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Ragnarok


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:

Thanks for the great questions! I can tell you know your stuff but what you asked.


Thanks man! We have our BDL draft starting Monday and we all tend to watch plenty of tape.

And I cut out your answers as I responded to not have a massively long post.

CB - I know Lewis is short and light, but I don't see purely a slot guy as as much of a limitation as they are essentially starters anyways. But valid points. You do make very good points on Adoree and Humphrey. Not knowing their agility scores is a bit worrisome. If a CB isn't agile, he'll get crushed in the NFL.

Edge - That also makes sense. However, I think his length and initial burst are two things that can't be taught. He can get stronger and improve his pass rush moves, so I'm not as worried about those. However, one year of production and not following responsibilities are much higher concerns for me.

DL - I haven't really watched Ogunjobi, so that's very insightful. Qualls is about what I thought with him being more of a NT. I personally like Watkins, Walker, and Godchaux more as those mid-round DTs because I think they have higher ceilings despite not being as good as Qualls against the run. But a stud NT does still have a place, even a guy that gets subbed out on passing downs.

OG - Interesting take on Braden. Seems similar to Lamp in how you described him. But I love OL that can play multiple positions. Especially ones with long arms. As with Taco, there are certain things you just can't teach. Such as nastiness in the run game.

OL - Going back to the things you can't teach, I just don't know if Asiata has the feet to play OT. Length and feet are two things you really can't improve past a certain point. But I could very well be wrong, he's a good guy to keep an eye on.

RB - The thing I always liked about Foreman is that I thought he had very good feet for a guy his size. Enough wiggle to make a guy miss despite his size. And I was impressed with his catching skills at his pro day. As a Vols fan, I really like Kamara's vision(but I'll admit some fan bias). He didn't get as much time cause we kept giving Hurd the ball, but Kamara always looked like the better runner. Even when our OL sucked, Kamara could get something due to vision. Imo, that was the main reason he averaged over 2 YPC more than Hurd. And once again, that's hard to teach.(Notice a theme?)

QB - While arm strength can be improved, some guys are maxed out physically. For instance, I doubt Webb's arm will get any better. I want a guy that can make that outside-the-hash throw on a rope. For Mahomes, probably my biggest issue was that he has a tendency to try to make something happen on every play even when he should throw it away. And that led to a lot of his poor plays. Trying too hard leads to sloppy footwork which leads to bad ball placement. But I love that competitive attitude. All that said, if he can get with a coach like Arians that can get him to not try and do everything himself, he could be great. I just never saw Kaaya or Kizer show me enough to take either before the 3rd-4th. Especially in how they see the field and makes decisions. I guess that's the difference, I view those two as making bad decisions due to lack of seeing the field and Mahomes making bad decisions due to trying to force plays he does see and still thinks he can get away with.

TE - I like Leggett a lot as well. For instance, in BDL last year I drafted Hunter Henry because he is that well-rounded TE that can do everything. I prefer guys like that, but we've seen the impact those hybrid TEs can have. If Engram can improve his blocking technique, I think he will be a serviceable blocker which ups his value. I haven't watched those small school guys, so I'll have to check them out.

Thanks again for the answers! You definitely know what you're talking about.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you think of BC FS John Johnson? When I watched a little bit of him I saw potential as a NCB/FS hybrid player who could be a better NFL player than college player
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
What do you think of BC FS John Johnson? When I watched a little bit of him I saw potential as a NCB/FS hybrid player who could be a better NFL player than college player


What I saw on tape really showed up in the testing for Johnson. He was slow and it was a problem on tape (4.61 40), and he had good hips (6.72 3C and 4.18 20S). He didn't try to improve his 40 at his Pro Day, and his 2nd 40 at the Combine was in the high 4.6's. That's a bit worrisome.

Overall, I think he does a lot well on tape. He reads the play well and takes great angles. I think he's more of a football player than an athlete, but that 40 time is really limiting, especially because it seems to show up so heavily on tape. I see him projected in the 5th Round some places and I think that's about right. If he ran faster I would definitely move him up a round or two.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a question for others: I am really low on guys like Harris and McKinnley compared to others. Why aren't others more worried about the stiffness that shows up on tape as well as the 3-cone time to corroborate the tape? Tim Williams gets dinged for his lack of bend, but he can bend better than both Harris and McKinnley, with a 3-cone about a tenth faster. I just see this as such a limiting factor that these guys shouldn't be going in the 1st Round, especially not the middle-top of the 1st Round.
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