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A Rams draft thread...remember these?
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tim199009


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris00cm wrote:
tim199009 wrote:
Im a little late to the party. But I think I like the draft. I was not as informed on most of the prospects this year than in past years but I like what ive seen from most of the guys. Particularly Everett, Kupp, and Reynolds. I read somewhere that we started to use more analytics in our scouting process. I can't help but think that this draft reminds me of the 2011 Seahawks draft where majority of the fan base was disappointed but they came away with a lot of starters.
Kupp is the ultimate "old-school thinking" prospect. I'm curious where you saw this.


There is an analytics team. I'm not sure if it's a hold over from Fisher or something Mcvay recently implemented. But they had some input in the drafting process.



http://www.therams.com/videos/videos/The_Nerds_Nest/b88c172f-fc34-49e4-b4d9-f542d02fcadb

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/04/26/when-it-comes-to-nfl-draft-day-the-nerds-increasingly-have-their-say/

Quote:
Les Snead

“The far right two computers — that’s where our nerds sit during the draft meetings. At the end of the day, the answer is yes. I think it’s another tool in the toolbox. There’s a lot of data that comes our way. I think they do a nice job of being able to analyze it, maybe put it in a form that we can understand. It basically helps us make decisions, take risk out of decisions and add better probability.”


Quote:
More and more, Snead is leaning on Temme and his team to deliver well-informed evaluations on college and pro players. And their roles likely will expand to include in-season functions with the addition of new coach Sean McVay, a 31-year-old product of the information age who embraces the growing trend of using data to develop more accurate profiles on NFL players and teams.

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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris00cm wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
Non-Issue wrote:
So dont be so quick to dismiss him just because of his 40.
Agreed. That would be foolish. Don't think anyone around here is doing that though.


I think it's more of a sticking point in people's minds that you're letting on.
The overall athletic profile is severely underwhelming. Not just the 40 time.


Height, weight, hand size, short shuttle, three cone drill, and 10 yard split are all solid to great. The only parts of his athletic profile that are "severely underwhelming" are his jumps and 40. Neither are important.
And let's also ignore the fact he's a redundant asset on this offense.


That's neither a "fact" nor true. If we had a sure-handed great route runner last year, he sure wasn't playing on offense.

There's nothing "redundant" about Kupp.

chris00cm wrote:
BStanRamFan wrote:
I saw a tidbit on NFL Network from Chris Wyche (i think that's his name) that the Rams mentality has changed it's focus from "We're going to make Pro Bowls and All Pro Teams" to "We're going to be a great football team".
Dumbest thing I've ever heard. Great players make great teams.


That's not really true.

chris00cm wrote:
tim199009 wrote:
Im a little late to the party. But I think I like the draft. I was not as informed on most of the prospects this year than in past years but I like what ive seen from most of the guys. Particularly Everett, Kupp, and Reynolds. I read somewhere that we started to use more analytics in our scouting process. I can't help but think that this draft reminds me of the 2011 Seahawks draft where majority of the fan base was disappointed but they came away with a lot of starters.
Kupp is the ultimate "old-school thinking" prospect. I'm curious where you saw this.


Laughing
No, he's not. Analytics extend further than 40 time, age, and jumps.
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BStanRamFan


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ctp2124 wrote:
BStanRamFan wrote:
I saw a tidbit on NFL Network from Chris Wyche (i think that's his name) that the Rams mentality has changed it's focus from "We're going to make Pro Bowls and All Pro Teams" to "We're going to be a great football team".


Is it corny and cliche'? Ofcourse. Can it have an impact on overall performance? OMG yes. There is talent on this team and there has been for the past 3-4 years or so. We let some go, mismanaged some of it, but we have 2 All Pro in Whitworth and Donald, we potential all Pro in Gurley. Pro bowl caliber in Tru, Ogletree, Quinn. The best special teams in the league...a mentality change could be what really turns this around.

I know I, like some of you, find an abundance of optimism this time of year with the new draft picks and FA's, but we cannot under value the importance of Coaching on a YOUNG football team. It truly can make the world of difference


It all comes down to Goff. We have shown under Fisher that we can put a top 10-15 defense on the field. That shouldn't change under Wade. The problem is under Fisher we were putting up the worst offensive numbers in the league. If Goff takes a step forward then so will the team.


It definitely falls on Goff's shoulders and I think he is going to be on a short leash this year. I was never a fan of the pick, but I see the potential and he has my support. If we are a 3-4 win team this year and are picking in the top 5, a QB will be a possibility because at the end of the day Goff is not McVay's guy. He may be able to do something with him, but coaches (especially offensive coaches) want *their* QB. So we shall see, but Goff definitely has the potential to be a top 10 QB in this league. It's whether he has it between the ears.
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Tano


Joined: 24 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ctp2124 wrote:
BStanRamFan wrote:
I saw a tidbit on NFL Network from Chris Wyche (i think that's his name) that the Rams mentality has changed it's focus from "We're going to make Pro Bowls and All Pro Teams" to "We're going to be a great football team".


Is it corny and cliche'? Ofcourse. Can it have an impact on overall performance? OMG yes. There is talent on this team and there has been for the past 3-4 years or so. We let some go, mismanaged some of it, but we have 2 All Pro in Whitworth and Donald, we potential all Pro in Gurley. Pro bowl caliber in Tru, Ogletree, Quinn. The best special teams in the league...a mentality change could be what really turns this around.

I know I, like some of you, find an abundance of optimism this time of year with the new draft picks and FA's, but we cannot under value the importance of Coaching on a YOUNG football team. It truly can make the world of difference


It all comes down to Goff. We have shown under Fisher that we can put a top 10-15 defense on the field. That shouldn't change under Wade. The problem is under Fisher we were putting up the worst offensive numbers in the league. If Goff takes a step forward then so will the team.


With all the questions being asked of Goff, I decided to re-watch some of his play. I just watched the first quarter of the Seattle game and I just can't believe just how awful Fisher and Boras offensive game plan was. Over half of the pass plays they ran, were plays where 5 guys would run short outs - not one of them ran farther than 8 yards. If I recall correctly, I believe most of the games with Goff had similar plays like that ran on a consistent basis. Worst play calling I have ever seen. You just can't succeed doing that. And then to make matters worse, the one play where they had a receiver run farther than 30 yards, a good pass to a wide open receiver gets dropped.

I definitely want to see Goff in a better offensive game plan before I make a judgment on his play.
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Flatlyner


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Goff had a multitude of drops last year, some of which may have been long TD completions and turned the game around. Add to that some pretty terrible blocking leading to nearly no time in the pocket and you have yourself a season like Goff had.

He now has an improved line, improved WR's, and an improved TE weapon. He also has the full off season as the starter and getting all starter reps in training.
Now is his time.
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chris00cm


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
That's neither a "fact" nor true. If we had a sure-handed great route runner last year, he sure wasn't playing on offense.

There's nothing "redundant" about Kupp.

Him, Woods, and Cooper are the same player. Now granted, I was never a Cooper fan in the begin with and he is not tied to this coach, but still.

Woods is best off in the slot, where players can be schemed open and don't have to worry about having adequate size + athleticism to beat an outside corner. Unfortunately, he will be forced to play outside with Tavon and Reynolds.

The same is even more true for Kupp. He will never be able to win outside at the NFL level. Period.

jrry32 wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
BStanRamFan wrote:
I saw a tidbit on NFL Network from Chris Wyche (i think that's his name) that the Rams mentality has changed it's focus from "We're going to make Pro Bowls and All Pro Teams" to "We're going to be a great football team".
Dumbest thing I've ever heard. Great players make great teams.


That's not really true.
So you would rather have a team of below average talents with "good" coaches I assume?

jrry32 wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
tim199009 wrote:
Im a little late to the party. But I think I like the draft. I was not as informed on most of the prospects this year than in past years but I like what ive seen from most of the guys. Particularly Everett, Kupp, and Reynolds. I read somewhere that we started to use more analytics in our scouting process. I can't help but think that this draft reminds me of the 2011 Seahawks draft where majority of the fan base was disappointed but they came away with a lot of starters.
Kupp is the ultimate "old-school thinking" prospect. I'm curious where you saw this.


Laughing
No, he's not. Analytics extend further than 40 time, age, and jumps.
Show me something that the analytics mind would like about Kupp?
Doesn't have the above average age-adjusted production AND has very low size-adjusted athleticism. What am I missing here?

All I hear about the guy is the "scrappy player" narrative. "Coach on the field." "First one in, last one out." yada yada yada. I understand the reason this staff seemed to target those kind of players throughout free agency and the draft. Doesn't mean I agree with it.
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chris00cm


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holt_bruce81 wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
Non-Issue wrote:
So dont be so quick to dismiss him just because of his 40.
Agreed. That would be foolish. Don't think anyone around here is doing that though.


I think it's more of a sticking point in people's minds that you're letting on.
The overall athletic profile is severely underwhelming. Not just the 40 time.


So was Jarvis Landry's...
Third best receiver on the team. Expect Kupp to be the same.

The best part about Landry? Him and Woods are very comparable outside the 40 times, because they don't matter.
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stl4life07


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I crazy to think Tavon could produce like Brandin Cooks now that he is with a better offensive minded coach?

If you look at Tavon Austin, he is 5'9" 176lbs 4.34 40 time. Cooks is 5'10" 186lbs 4.33 40 time. Basically Cooks is only 1' taller and 10lbs heavier than Tavon. They are almost identical even with the 40 times. The biggest difference is Cooks played under Sean Payton (one of the best offensive minds in the NFL, if not the best) and Tavon played under Jeff Fisher (dont know a thing about offensive success and never hired an offensive coordinator who knew how to run a successful offense).

Under Sean Payton, the past two seasons Cooks managed to have over 1100 yards receiving despite not catching over 85 passes. So I ask that with McVay, who is regarded as one of young brightest offensive minds in the NFL, can Tavon produce like Brandin Cooks in the Rams offense moving forward?
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DEE RAWL


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stl4life07 wrote:
Am I crazy to think Tavon could produce like Brandin Cooks now that he is with a better offensive minded coach?

If you look at Tavon Austin, he is 5'9" 176lbs 4.34 40 time. Cooks is 5'10" 186lbs 4.33 40 time. Basically Cooks is only 1' taller and 10lbs heavier than Tavon. They are almost identical even with the 40 times. The biggest difference is Cooks played under Sean Payton (one of the best offensive minds in the NFL, if not the best) and Tavon played under Jeff Fisher (dont know a thing about offensive success and never hired an offensive coordinator who knew how to run a successful offense).

Under Sean Payton, the past two seasons Cooks managed to have over 1100 yards receiving despite not catching over 85 passes. So I ask that with McVay, who is regarded as one of young brightest offensive minds in the NFL, can Tavon produce like Brandin Cooks in the Rams offense moving forward?


Yes you are loco for thinking that because despite the similarities in size/speed, they are nothing alike in the way they play the game. I expect Tavon to do better now, but still dont expect Brandon Cooks-like performances.
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3. Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss
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DEE RAWL


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris00cm wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
That's neither a "fact" nor true. If we had a sure-handed great route runner last year, he sure wasn't playing on offense.

There's nothing "redundant" about Kupp.

Him, Woods, and Cooper are the same player. Now granted, I was never a Cooper fan in the begin with and he is not tied to this coach, but still.

Woods is best off in the slot, where players can be schemed open and don't have to worry about having adequate size + athleticism to beat an outside corner. Unfortunately, he will be forced to play outside with Tavon and Reynolds.

The same is even more true for Kupp. He will never be able to win outside at the NFL level. Period.

jrry32 wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
BStanRamFan wrote:
I saw a tidbit on NFL Network from Chris Wyche (i think that's his name) that the Rams mentality has changed it's focus from "We're going to make Pro Bowls and All Pro Teams" to "We're going to be a great football team".
Dumbest thing I've ever heard. Great players make great teams.


That's not really true.
So you would rather have a team of below average talents with "good" coaches I assume?

jrry32 wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
tim199009 wrote:
Im a little late to the party. But I think I like the draft. I was not as informed on most of the prospects this year than in past years but I like what ive seen from most of the guys. Particularly Everett, Kupp, and Reynolds. I read somewhere that we started to use more analytics in our scouting process. I can't help but think that this draft reminds me of the 2011 Seahawks draft where majority of the fan base was disappointed but they came away with a lot of starters.
Kupp is the ultimate "old-school thinking" prospect. I'm curious where you saw this.


Laughing
No, he's not. Analytics extend further than 40 time, age, and jumps.
Show me something that the analytics mind would like about Kupp?
Doesn't have the above average age-adjusted production AND has very low size-adjusted athleticism. What am I missing here?

All I hear about the guy is the "scrappy player" narrative. "Coach on the field." "First one in, last one out." yada yada yada. I understand the reason this staff seemed to target those kind of players throughout free agency and the draft. Doesn't mean I agree with it.



First of all, I was the one who said the Rams would be using more analytics from here on out because the scout I spoke with told me.


Second of all, analytics arent the only thing that is used. Its just a tool they have as quoted above. It becomes especially more true in the later rounds and UDFA's because you use it to seperate a large number of players that maybe rated similarly.


Finally, Kupp does show something in the analytics department such as being a top performer in agility drills like the 3-cone and 20 yard shuttle. Furthermore, his low drop rate, and numbers against pac-12 competition are certainly numbers that were considered. There are also things like wonderlic score (he scored a 37 if Im not mistaken), and hand size.


Analytics doesnt mean just combine numbers. Its a combination of any number of measureables and comparing them to players that have had success/failure in the past.
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1. Corey Davis, WR, WMU
2. Forrest Lamp, G/C, WKU
3. Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss
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stl4life07


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEE RAWL wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
Am I crazy to think Tavon could produce like Brandin Cooks now that he is with a better offensive minded coach?

If you look at Tavon Austin, he is 5'9" 176lbs 4.34 40 time. Cooks is 5'10" 186lbs 4.33 40 time. Basically Cooks is only 1' taller and 10lbs heavier than Tavon. They are almost identical even with the 40 times. The biggest difference is Cooks played under Sean Payton (one of the best offensive minds in the NFL, if not the best) and Tavon played under Jeff Fisher (dont know a thing about offensive success and never hired an offensive coordinator who knew how to run a successful offense).

Under Sean Payton, the past two seasons Cooks managed to have over 1100 yards receiving despite not catching over 85 passes. So I ask that with McVay, who is regarded as one of young brightest offensive minds in the NFL, can Tavon produce like Brandin Cooks in the Rams offense moving forward?


Yes you are loco for thinking that because despite the similarities in size/speed, they are nothing alike in the way they play the game. I expect Tavon to do better now, but still dont expect Brandon Cooks-like performances.


Give me your best guess expectations for Tavon now that he has a real offensive minded coach who will actually put him in situations to succeed? The last time Tavon had that was in WV where he was terrorize defenses.

I say that because according is reports, the Rams want to use Tavon like DeSean Jackson. Now I feel better when hearing that knowing McVay will have control of this offense than I did last season when Fisher said Tavon will catch 100 balls that season.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris00cm wrote:

Him, Woods, and Cooper are the same player. Now granted, I was never a Cooper fan in the begin with and he is not tied to this coach, but still.

Woods is best off in the slot, where players can be schemed open and don't have to worry about having adequate size + athleticism to beat an outside corner. Unfortunately, he will be forced to play outside with Tavon and Reynolds.

The same is even more true for Kupp. He will never be able to win outside at the NFL level. Period.


No, they're not the same player. That's such a silly criticism. Cooper is a tough, physical YAC guy. He's a slot-only guy. He's like Davone Bess.

Woods is a jack of all trades master of none type (except for his run blocking). Good technician, solid athlete, good hands, and great run blocker. He can play the X, Z, or S. He's like Hines Ward.

Kupp is incredibly quick, crisp in his cuts and movements, a master of the technical and mental sides of the game, and has outstanding hands. He's like Keenan Allen or Joe Horn. He can also play the X, Z, or S.

The only real comparisons between these three guys is that all three can play in the slot. Bu that's not saying anything. Larry Fitzgerald, Brandon Marshall, and Jordy Nelson all have seen significant number of snaps in the slot. That doesn't make them the same WRs as our three.

I also want to make clear that my comparisons are what they have the ability to be, not what they are now.(and Kupp is the only one of the three whom I'd bet reaches his potential)

Quote:
jrry32 wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
BStanRamFan wrote:
I saw a tidbit on NFL Network from Chris Wyche (i think that's his name) that the Rams mentality has changed it's focus from "We're going to make Pro Bowls and All Pro Teams" to "We're going to be a great football team".
Dumbest thing I've ever heard. Great players make great teams.


That's not really true.
So you would rather have a team of below average talents with "good" coaches I assume?


No. But the idea that great players make great teams is BS (in the sense that the only the players make the team). Great teams often make great players. It goes both ways. Look at all the guys that Bill Belichick has made productive after they were nothing special on other teams.

If I have to choose, yes, I'll take a team of below average talents with great coaches over a team of great talents with bad coaches. To get to the NFL, you have to be incredibly talented. There isn't a lot separating the great players from the average players. Coaching (player development), scheme, culture all factor in.

Great coaches will build great teams. Bad coaches will destroy great teams.

McVay has it right. It shouldn't be about the individuals. It should be about the team/system. The Patriots are great because they know how to find and plug players into their system. We need that.

Quote:
Show me something that the analytics mind would like about Kupp?
Doesn't have the above average age-adjusted production AND has very low size-adjusted athleticism. What am I missing here?

All I hear about the guy is the "scrappy player" narrative. "Coach on the field." "First one in, last one out." yada yada yada. I understand the reason this staff seemed to target those kind of players throughout free agency and the draft. Doesn't mean I agree with it.


Dee Rawl hits the nail on the head here:
DEE RAWL wrote:
First of all, I was the one who said the Rams would be using more analytics from here on out because the scout I spoke with told me.


Second of all, analytics arent the only thing that is used. Its just a tool they have as quoted above. It becomes especially more true in the later rounds and UDFA's because you use it to seperate a large number of players that maybe rated similarly.


Finally, Kupp does show something in the analytics department such as being a top performer in agility drills like the 3-cone and 20 yard shuttle. Furthermore, his low drop rate, and numbers against pac-12 competition are certainly numbers that were considered. There are also things like wonderlic score (he scored a 37 if Im not mistaken), and hand size.


Analytics doesnt mean just combine numbers. Its a combination of any number of measureables and comparing them to players that have had success/failure in the past.


It all depends on what our analytics guys value. You assume they value what you do. It's a faulty assumption.

I'll also point out that your age-adjusted production point is total BS. Kupp posted 93 receptions, 1691 receiving yards, and 21 receiving TDs as a 20-year old freshman redshirt. I call BS on any claims that production is below average for his age.

You have no production argument beyond him being older his last two years at EWU. Who gives a flying eff? He put up elite production in each of his four years as a starter. It's asinine to claim he lacks age-adjusted production because he stayed in college. That's idiotic.

If that metric punishes players for staying in college, it's a crappy metric and needs to be reevaluated. It should actually look at their production by a certain age, not punish guys for posting elite production at 20, 21, 22, and 23 years old.
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Flatlyner


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stl4life07 wrote:
Am I crazy to think Tavon could produce like Brandin Cooks now that he is with a better offensive minded coach?

If you look at Tavon Austin, he is 5'9" 176lbs 4.34 40 time. Cooks is 5'10" 186lbs 4.33 40 time. Basically Cooks is only 1' taller and 10lbs heavier than Tavon. They are almost identical even with the 40 times. The biggest difference is Cooks played under Sean Payton (one of the best offensive minds in the NFL, if not the best) and Tavon played under Jeff Fisher (dont know a thing about offensive success and never hired an offensive coordinator who knew how to run a successful offense).

Under Sean Payton, the past two seasons Cooks managed to have over 1100 yards receiving despite not catching over 85 passes. So I ask that with McVay, who is regarded as one of young brightest offensive minds in the NFL, can Tavon produce like Brandin Cooks in the Rams offense moving forward?


The most important piece of the puzzle here is that Goff is not playing at a Drew Brees level. If he was, I could see Tavon have a much more productive season. Its certainly more then the coach and scheme involved in this outcome, he has to have a good QB. Goff could be that, but isn't yet.
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yoinesh123


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't realize that we had signed Jon Toth as a udfa. I saw he is on our rookie minicamp roster.
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stl4life07


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flatlyner wrote:
stl4life07 wrote:
Am I crazy to think Tavon could produce like Brandin Cooks now that he is with a better offensive minded coach?

If you look at Tavon Austin, he is 5'9" 176lbs 4.34 40 time. Cooks is 5'10" 186lbs 4.33 40 time. Basically Cooks is only 1' taller and 10lbs heavier than Tavon. They are almost identical even with the 40 times. The biggest difference is Cooks played under Sean Payton (one of the best offensive minds in the NFL, if not the best) and Tavon played under Jeff Fisher (dont know a thing about offensive success and never hired an offensive coordinator who knew how to run a successful offense).

Under Sean Payton, the past two seasons Cooks managed to have over 1100 yards receiving despite not catching over 85 passes. So I ask that with McVay, who is regarded as one of young brightest offensive minds in the NFL, can Tavon produce like Brandin Cooks in the Rams offense moving forward?


The most important piece of the puzzle here is that Goff is not playing at a Drew Brees level. If he was, I could see Tavon have a much more productive season. Its certainly more then the coach and scheme involved in this outcome, he has to have a good QB. Goff could be that, but isn't yet.


You are right. I just mention scheme and having a creative offensive mind in McVay because by that notion Goff should be better too. Now the question is how much better? I think even in the case of Brees, his best move in 2006 was to end up with Payton than to go to Miami with Saban. I know his first choice was Miami but they turned him down due to medical concerns but it all worked out. In my mind Payton was in the same situation as McVay, except older. He was a 43 year old assistant head coach/QB coach in Dallas under Bill Parcells that was promoted to passing game coordinator in 2005 in Dallas before being hired by the Saints in 2006 as head coach. He never had a head coaching job but many looked at him as a bright offensive mind coming from a very good coaching tree in Jim Fassel and Bill Parcells. Same things can be said about McVay except he is a lot younger. Now there was the unknown With Payton just like there is the unknown with McVay. I don't about anyone but that's just how I see it just in terms of the type of coach the Rams are getting. I think at the very least Goff shouldn't bust under McVay. At the very best Goff should be a top 10 QB in the NFL under McVay.
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