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What's the story with Jonathan Allen
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MSURacerDT55


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Finally, I'm not sure why you insist on comparing Allen to guys like Adrian Clayborn (who Allen is clearly much more skilled than) when he actually profiles more similarly to guys like Sheldon Richardson, Malik Jackson, and Gerald McCoy from a combine testing and skills standpoint. Super athletic or not, I'll be pretty damn happy if he is anywhere close to those guys when it comes to his production in the NFL.

I wasn't convinced of it until I got to this part, but you didn't actually read what I wrote, you've pretty clearly just skimmed it.

"Winning with quickness" isn't explosiveness off the line. Explosiveness is explosiveness. Quickness is ability to win in the finesse game, largely with lateral agility. Allen doesn't have a finesse game. And the athletic testing at the combine reinforced what was visible on the tape, that he lacks the athletic ability/agility to win in that aspect.

I said that he compared [i]athletically
to Clayborn, which he does. You can't just compared 40 times and jumps and say they're similar, you have to actually factor in when guys are doing while displacing more mass. which all the guys you listed did, save Jackson, who Allen simply doesn't win the same way he does (especially Jackson the prospect, who was winning - particularly when he was lined up inside - because Tennessee was stunting and scheming him to basically have an open gap and not have to worry about engaging and shedding).

These (Link 1 and Link 2) were what I was referring to. That's not a guy getting chipped or doubled, that's a guy coming straight up out of his stance, failing to win with his bull-rush, and not being able to do much of anything to affect the play because he's largely trying to avoid contact.

There's not a thing on the Mississippi State tape that disproves any contention I've made - it even shows an example of the push-pull move I complemented him on. He's not "winning with quickness and agility" on that tape. 2:03 wasn't winning with quickness, he shot the gap on a straight line vector and the lineman didn't get his hands on him.

The Michigan State play you cited, that's a bull rush. That's not a "quickness" play. You'd have at least have had a better argument with the sack he had earlier in the game, which was still a bull-rush (against the weakest component of that Sparty OL that year), but at least he won to a degree with hand-fighting (there wasn't any kind of setting up the guy with a jab to get him to commit and then beating him with speed though, it was just straight power). The LSU play you cited is the exact same thing... bull rush on an overload up the middle (how exactly is that supposed to demonstrate winning with quickness?). And moreover that LSU tape only further illustrates my point, one splash play in a sea of getting neutralized by single-blocks consistently otherwise.

The Tennessee play? Another bull rush. That Tennessee tape also illustrates his lack of finesse game to a "T." For a guy who has the clean hand-placement and technique that he has (it's a staple of Alabama DL), he makes no attempt to set his man up. He's not even really two-gapping on a lot of that tape... he's trying to shoot a gap. He left multiple plays on the field against Tennessee from what I can see because he just tried to storm in, rather than layering his moves. It's all blunt force and no subtlety - and that kind of stuff isn't going to fly at the next level. I'm not sure I saw Allen make one assessment of how the OL sets him and adjustment to counter in that entire cutaway. His best "quickness" play is at 8:32 and even that was a case of his poor pad-level preventing him from actually getting home before Dobbs gets the ball off.

And the A&M game... people always seem to conveniently ignore that he was playing against a true freshman OL. Outside of Gennessy and Eluemunor that Aggie OL was green as all get-out. And on a couple of those plays, Allen's lack of finesse game and willingness to overpursuit resulting therefrom actually costs Bama to put A&M in position for Knight's first TD throw. On Knight's second TD throw. And what exactly am I supposed to be seeing on the play at 6:30? Another instance of shooting a gap on a bull rush? Ripping the ball out of Knight's hand is impressive, but that wasn't a play where he won (against his blocker) with quickness. It's a nice play; it's not a quickness play.

Just going to have to agree to disagree. The athleticism that Allen does possess just doesn't translate well to the next level. He certainly could potentially be taught a finesse game, but he lacks the elite athletic upside (while lacking that technical/mental element to his game presently) to merit Top 5 selection.

Also, you probably ought to go back and look at the tape you linked to and where Allen lines up, then go review your second to last paragraph. Bama moved him all over - and you were linking to some 2015 tape too when he was playing the majority of his downs on the edge. You're seeing what you want to see - that's your prerogative, we're all guilty of it with players on our teams. But you're misrepresenting how much Allen lined up as an interior lineman (even Bama's depth chart lists him in their base as an end) and how much his assignment on a given play was to two-gap.



False, Allen does have a finesse game, and outstanding technique. You do know, you don't have to be an athletic freak to succeed in the NFL?

He has everything except explosion and a clean bill of health, but he has enough athleticism and technique to supplement his lack of explosion.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@PFF @2016 @TBBuccaneers

Quote:
DT Gerald McCoy recorded the most QB pressures by a defensive tackle in a game in Week 7 against San Francisco.


If Allen's comp is Gerald McCoy, I'll take it! Cool
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
@PFF @2016 @TBBuccaneers

Quote:
DT Gerald McCoy recorded the most QB pressures by a defensive tackle in a game in Week 7 against San Francisco.


If Allen's comp is Gerald McCoy, I'll take it! Cool


People keep saying this because they put up similar numbers. The fact is that McCoy was 10+ lbs heavier when he put those numbers up than Allen did.

Allen is a completely different player as well. Nobody penetrated and out athlete-ed (is that a phrase?) OG's in college better than McCoy. Despite similar numbers, he didn't have NEARLY the explosiveness and ability to get around OG's that McCoy showed, in fact he struggled pretty badly in that regard.

He's got a little bit of the same thing going that Deforrest Buckner had, but without nearly the length that Buckner has, that made him so valuable. He's a pure "throwback" base DE, that will probably struggle rushing the passer, even when kicked inside (which wasn't the case with Buckner IMO). There really isn't a great fit for him and he really doesn't have the kind of premium traits that teams covet, and will never be a true impact pass rusher.

If he didn't go to Alabama, I wouldn't have been shocked to see him treated extremely similar to the way Jonathan Bullard last year (with + handwork). I see a guy who's going to be very solid for a long time, but you're definitely not getting an elite player.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
@PFF @2016 @TBBuccaneers

Quote:
DT Gerald McCoy recorded the most QB pressures by a defensive tackle in a game in Week 7 against San Francisco.


If Allen's comp is Gerald McCoy, I'll take it! Cool


People keep saying this because they put up similar numbers. The fact is that McCoy was 10+ lbs heavier when he put those numbers up than Allen did.


9 pounds heavier actually. 286 vs 295.

He also put up similar numbers to Sheldon Richardson (only 8 pounds heavier) and Malik Jackson (2 pounds lighter).

Duffman57 wrote:
Allen is a completely different player as well. Nobody penetrated and out athlete-ed (is that a phrase?) OG's in college better than McCoy. Despite similar numbers, he didn't have NEARLY the explosiveness and ability to get around OG's that McCoy showed, in fact he struggled pretty badly in that regard.


I showed Allen's ability to get around OG's, without having to rely on superior hand usage, in several plays with video links on the previous page. His 2-gapping responsibilities in Bama's defense was a key reason he didn't do it more often.

Duffman57 wrote:
He's got a little bit of the same thing going that Deforrest Buckner had, but without nearly the length that Buckner has, that made him so valuable. He's a pure "throwback" base DE, that will probably struggle rushing the passer, even when kicked inside (which wasn't the case with Buckner IMO). There really isn't a great fit for him and he really doesn't have the kind of premium traits that teams covet, and will never be a true impact pass rusher.


This is interesting coming from a Joey Bosa fan. Bosa was knocked for a lot of the same things you're knocking Allen for. Obviously Bosa has better bend around the edge, as evidenced by his 3-cone time, but that isn't something Allen will be asked to do. Bosa is a great example of a player winning with superior hand usage and technical skills without having eye-popping athleticism.

To state that Allen will never be a true impact pass rusher is ignorant. Even players with horrible athleticism like Markus Golden have shown to be impact pass rushers at the NFL level, largely due to his technique, hands, and instincts/awareness.


Duffman57 wrote:
If he didn't go to Alabama, I wouldn't have been shocked to see him treated extremely similar to the way Jonathan Bullard last year (with + handwork). I see a guy who's going to be very solid for a long time, but you're definitely not getting an elite player.


Can I borrow your crystal ball?
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MWil23


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Allen's shoulders are healthy, he's still my favorite/safest player in the draft and it's an absolute steal for the Redskins. I'd still have loved to see Cleveland stay put and get BOTH Garrett and Allen instead of trading back and getting Peppers. Shocked

However, if Brantley pans out like they think he could, then the value is a steal as well and the extra 1st with Peppers makes a LOT of sense too.
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MWil23 wrote:
If Allen's shoulders are healthy, he's still my favorite/safest player in the draft and it's an absolute steal for the Redskins. I'd still have loved to see Cleveland stay put and get BOTH Garrett and Allen instead of trading back and getting Peppers. Shocked

However, if Brantley pans out like they think he could, then the value is a steal as well and the extra 1st with Peppers makes a LOT of sense too.


But that's the thing though. It doesn't seem like they are 100% fine
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arthritis is a nasty disease which only gets worse with time. It can be quite a load to carry and still play football at a high level.

I do not know how severe his case is, but it is definitely the reason he dropped in the draft. Just have to see how short a career he has before he cannot play any longer.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can someone give the number of NFL players that were forced to retire early due to arthritis? This is usually a prevalent issue for retired players, not active. From everything I have heard and read, this is a condition that will start becoming a big issue for Allen 15-20 years from now. Most teams cleared him medically.
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CalhounLambeau


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Can someone give the number of NFL players that were forced to retire early due to arthritis? This is usually a prevalent issue for retired players, not active. From everything I have heard and read, this is a condition that will start becoming a big issue for Allen 15-20 years from now. Most teams cleared him medically.

I haven't heard of anyone retiring early due to arthritis but unsurprisingly most NFL players aren't going to give you a list of reasons when they leave. It may happen but I doubt it's prevalent. I think the the issue related to Jonathan Allen is overblown. If he finds success and stays relatively healthy he'll stick around plenty long enough.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Can someone give the number of NFL players that were forced to retire early due to arthritis? This is usually a prevalent issue for retired players, not active. From everything I have heard and read, this is a condition that will start becoming a big issue for Allen 15-20 years from now. Most teams cleared him medically.


Look, the guy was an absolute guaranteed top 10 pick before his shoulders became an issue, so not all teams cleared him medically. He fell to #17 because he carries a certain degree of risk, because in cases like this, the doctors tell teams just how dangerous it is to draft this guy and GM's will usually leave it up to the doctors to decide if the team should draft him or not.

16 teams did not wish to take a chance on him based on previous experiences with this type of injury. It could significantly shorten his career. Football is tough enough to play at a top level without long term physical problems. For most people, 15 to 20 years from now, it becomes more serious, but they do not play pro football.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Can someone give the number of NFL players that were forced to retire early due to arthritis? This is usually a prevalent issue for retired players, not active. From everything I have heard and read, this is a condition that will start becoming a big issue for Allen 15-20 years from now. Most teams cleared him medically.


Look, the guy was an absolute guaranteed top 10 pick before his shoulders became an issue, so not all teams cleared him medically. He fell to #17 because he carries a certain degree of risk, because in cases like this, the doctors tell teams just how dangerous it is to draft this guy and GM's will usually leave it up to the doctors to decide if the team should draft him or not.

16 teams did not wish to take a chance on him based on previous experiences with this type of injury. It could significantly shorten his career. Football is tough enough to play at a top level without long term physical problems. For most people, 15 to 20 years from now, it becomes more serious, but they do not play pro football.


One of the most respected sport physicians and surgeons in the world, Dr. James Andrews, happens to be the team physician for both Alabama and the Redskins. The only opinion we needed was his. He cleared Allen, so I don't really care what other teams' physicians may have thought. Allen should have a relatively long and healthy career with the Redskins if he can avoid disastrous injuries.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
@PFF @2016 @TBBuccaneers

Quote:
DT Gerald McCoy recorded the most QB pressures by a defensive tackle in a game in Week 7 against San Francisco.


If Allen's comp is Gerald McCoy, I'll take it! Cool


People keep saying this because they put up similar numbers. The fact is that McCoy was 10+ lbs heavier when he put those numbers up than Allen did.

Allen is a completely different player as well. Nobody penetrated and out athlete-ed (is that a phrase?) OG's in college better than McCoy. Despite similar numbers, he didn't have NEARLY the explosiveness and ability to get around OG's that McCoy showed, in fact he struggled pretty badly in that regard.

He's got a little bit of the same thing going that Deforrest Buckner had, but without nearly the length that Buckner has, that made him so valuable. He's a pure "throwback" base DE, that will probably struggle rushing the passer, even when kicked inside (which wasn't the case with Buckner IMO). There really isn't a great fit for him and he really doesn't have the kind of premium traits that teams covet, and will never be a true impact pass rusher.

If he didn't go to Alabama, I wouldn't have been shocked to see him treated extremely similar to the way Jonathan Bullard last year (with + handwork). I see a guy who's going to be very solid for a long time, but you're definitely not getting an elite player.



Ahh, the "if" game, you don't know what would have happened if he went to another school, he may have played 3 tech at another school and dominated. He could have gone to Auburn and been a stud 3 tech on the same line as Lawson and Adams.He would have been the top tackle in this years draft and all of this talk would be a moot point. I think him playing in an odd front was and is terrible for him individually (Though he was very successful and can be moving forward).
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Duffman57 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
@PFF @2016 @TBBuccaneers

Quote:
DT Gerald McCoy recorded the most QB pressures by a defensive tackle in a game in Week 7 against San Francisco.


If Allen's comp is Gerald McCoy, I'll take it! Cool


People keep saying this because they put up similar numbers. The fact is that McCoy was 10+ lbs heavier when he put those numbers up than Allen did.


9 pounds heavier actually. 286 vs 295.

He also put up similar numbers to Sheldon Richardson (only 8 pounds heavier) and Malik Jackson (2 pounds lighter).

Duffman57 wrote:
Allen is a completely different player as well. Nobody penetrated and out athlete-ed (is that a phrase?) OG's in college better than McCoy. Despite similar numbers, he didn't have NEARLY the explosiveness and ability to get around OG's that McCoy showed, in fact he struggled pretty badly in that regard.


I showed Allen's ability to get around OG's, without having to rely on superior hand usage, in several plays with video links on the previous page. His 2-gapping responsibilities in Bama's defense was a key reason he didn't do it more often.

Duffman57 wrote:
He's got a little bit of the same thing going that Deforrest Buckner had, but without nearly the length that Buckner has, that made him so valuable. He's a pure "throwback" base DE, that will probably struggle rushing the passer, even when kicked inside (which wasn't the case with Buckner IMO). There really isn't a great fit for him and he really doesn't have the kind of premium traits that teams covet, and will never be a true impact pass rusher.


This is interesting coming from a Joey Bosa fan. Bosa was knocked for a lot of the same things you're knocking Allen for. Obviously Bosa has better bend around the edge, as evidenced by his 3-cone time, but that isn't something Allen will be asked to do. Bosa is a great example of a player winning with superior hand usage and technical skills without having eye-popping athleticism.

To state that Allen will never be a true impact pass rusher is ignorant. Even players with horrible athleticism like Markus Golden have shown to be impact pass rushers at the NFL level, largely due to his technique, hands, and instincts/awareness.


Duffman57 wrote:
If he didn't go to Alabama, I wouldn't have been shocked to see him treated extremely similar to the way Jonathan Bullard last year (with + handwork). I see a guy who's going to be very solid for a long time, but you're definitely not getting an elite player.


Can I borrow your crystal ball?


1st, No need to be an A hole, I didn't say he won't be x or is going to suck. I just said I don't see him being elite. That's what the draft is about, projection. I could be wrong, you could be too...

Bosa is different though. Like Allen he was one of the most functionally strong guys i've ever watched for his size, but the separator for me was that Bosa has freakish agility. I went back (since I get caught up in numbers sometimes), and looked at players with similar agility numbers, and basically couldn't find anything. When I looked at the last 15 years, the only players i could find that were 270+ (i'm giving Bosa the extra 1lb from the combine weight) and had a similar combo of 3 cone/SS (my qualifications were sub 6.9 3 cone and sub 4.25 SS at 270+), were JJ Watt and David Pollack (one of the bigger injury busts of all time). And the next closest player to do that weight wise was 255. People who say he wasn't a great athlete are really just looking at his 40 time...because he's got some freakish athletic qualities of agility and flexibility.

Allen has none of those. He's a different player, sure, and will be used differently, but has absolutely none of those qualities that is exacly what made Bosa so successful on top of the elite technique and functional strength.

As for the other guys you threw out as comparisons. Body type and play style is very different for most of them. You're comparing him to penetrating 3T types and 1 guy who's a similar weight but 3" taller. But at least I could see him be somewhat similar to Malik Jackson. Again, I don't think he's an awful player. I think he's a very solid base LE for a long time. But I just don't see him eclipsing 5-6 sacks a season, even if he's playing with elite guys around him like Malik was in Denver. So if you want a comparison, I'd say he's a slightly lesser Malik Jackson because of the lesser length.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Duffman57 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
@PFF @2016 @TBBuccaneers

Quote:
DT Gerald McCoy recorded the most QB pressures by a defensive tackle in a game in Week 7 against San Francisco.


If Allen's comp is Gerald McCoy, I'll take it! Cool


People keep saying this because they put up similar numbers. The fact is that McCoy was 10+ lbs heavier when he put those numbers up than Allen did.


9 pounds heavier actually. 286 vs 295.

He also put up similar numbers to Sheldon Richardson (only 8 pounds heavier) and Malik Jackson (2 pounds lighter).

Duffman57 wrote:
Allen is a completely different player as well. Nobody penetrated and out athlete-ed (is that a phrase?) OG's in college better than McCoy. Despite similar numbers, he didn't have NEARLY the explosiveness and ability to get around OG's that McCoy showed, in fact he struggled pretty badly in that regard.


I showed Allen's ability to get around OG's, without having to rely on superior hand usage, in several plays with video links on the previous page. His 2-gapping responsibilities in Bama's defense was a key reason he didn't do it more often.

Duffman57 wrote:
He's got a little bit of the same thing going that Deforrest Buckner had, but without nearly the length that Buckner has, that made him so valuable. He's a pure "throwback" base DE, that will probably struggle rushing the passer, even when kicked inside (which wasn't the case with Buckner IMO). There really isn't a great fit for him and he really doesn't have the kind of premium traits that teams covet, and will never be a true impact pass rusher.


This is interesting coming from a Joey Bosa fan. Bosa was knocked for a lot of the same things you're knocking Allen for. Obviously Bosa has better bend around the edge, as evidenced by his 3-cone time, but that isn't something Allen will be asked to do. Bosa is a great example of a player winning with superior hand usage and technical skills without having eye-popping athleticism.

To state that Allen will never be a true impact pass rusher is ignorant. Even players with horrible athleticism like Markus Golden have shown to be impact pass rushers at the NFL level, largely due to his technique, hands, and instincts/awareness.


Duffman57 wrote:
If he didn't go to Alabama, I wouldn't have been shocked to see him treated extremely similar to the way Jonathan Bullard last year (with + handwork). I see a guy who's going to be very solid for a long time, but you're definitely not getting an elite player.


Can I borrow your crystal ball?


1st, No need to be an A hole, I didn't say he won't be x or is going to suck. I just said I don't see him being elite. That's what the draft is about, projection. I could be wrong, you could be too...

Bosa is different though. Like Allen he was one of the most functionally strong guys i've ever watched for his size, but the separator for me was that Bosa has freakish agility. I went back (since I get caught up in numbers sometimes), and looked at players with similar agility numbers, and basically couldn't find anything. When I looked at the last 15 years, the only players i could find that were 270+ (i'm giving Bosa the extra 1lb from the combine weight) and had a similar combo of 3 cone/SS (my qualifications were sub 6.9 3 cone and sub 4.25 SS at 270+), were JJ Watt and David Pollack (one of the bigger injury busts of all time). And the next closest player to do that weight wise was 255. People who say he wasn't a great athlete are really just looking at his 40 time...because he's got some freakish athletic qualities of agility and flexibility.

Allen has none of those. He's a different player, sure, and will be used differently, but has absolutely none of those qualities that is exacly what made Bosa so successful on top of the elite technique and functional strength.

As for the other guys you threw out as comparisons. Body type and play style is very different for most of them. You're comparing him to penetrating 3T types and 1 guy who's a similar weight but 3" taller. But at least I could see him be somewhat similar to Malik Jackson. Again, I don't think he's an awful player. I think he's a very solid base LE for a long time. But I just don't see him eclipsing 5-6 sacks a season, even if he's playing with elite guys around him like Malik was in Denver. So if you want a comparison, I'd say he's a slightly lesser Malik Jackson because of the lesser length.


I wasn't trying to be an A hole. The way you worded that last sentence made it sound like "you're definitely not getting an elite player" was a statement of fact.

I understand that Bosa is a better athlete than Allen when it comes to flexibility and agility. The point I was making though is that Allen won't be asked to bend and get around the edge; he will be playing inside in both base and nickel packages. And honestly, a lot of the big plays I saw from Bosa last year happened because of his elite technique, strength, hand usage, or effort, more-so than his flexibility or agility.

As I've already said, look at Markus Golden and the impact he's had without having anywhere close to NFL average athleticism. Look at Michael Bennet's combine performance vs. the impact he's had. There are guys in this league who win on a consistent basis with superior hand usage, technique, and instinct/awareness without having great athleticism. And Allen's athleticism is better than both the guys I named.

Allen will be our penetrating 3T in Nickel packages, and his body type isn't that far off to the guys I comped him to (who's the guy that is 3 inches taller?), and neither is his athleticism, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say at the end.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Duffman57 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Duffman57 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
@PFF @2016 @TBBuccaneers

Quote:
DT Gerald McCoy recorded the most QB pressures by a defensive tackle in a game in Week 7 against San Francisco.


If Allen's comp is Gerald McCoy, I'll take it! Cool


People keep saying this because they put up similar numbers. The fact is that McCoy was 10+ lbs heavier when he put those numbers up than Allen did.


9 pounds heavier actually. 286 vs 295.

He also put up similar numbers to Sheldon Richardson (only 8 pounds heavier) and Malik Jackson (2 pounds lighter).

Duffman57 wrote:
Allen is a completely different player as well. Nobody penetrated and out athlete-ed (is that a phrase?) OG's in college better than McCoy. Despite similar numbers, he didn't have NEARLY the explosiveness and ability to get around OG's that McCoy showed, in fact he struggled pretty badly in that regard.


I showed Allen's ability to get around OG's, without having to rely on superior hand usage, in several plays with video links on the previous page. His 2-gapping responsibilities in Bama's defense was a key reason he didn't do it more often.

Duffman57 wrote:
He's got a little bit of the same thing going that Deforrest Buckner had, but without nearly the length that Buckner has, that made him so valuable. He's a pure "throwback" base DE, that will probably struggle rushing the passer, even when kicked inside (which wasn't the case with Buckner IMO). There really isn't a great fit for him and he really doesn't have the kind of premium traits that teams covet, and will never be a true impact pass rusher.


This is interesting coming from a Joey Bosa fan. Bosa was knocked for a lot of the same things you're knocking Allen for. Obviously Bosa has better bend around the edge, as evidenced by his 3-cone time, but that isn't something Allen will be asked to do. Bosa is a great example of a player winning with superior hand usage and technical skills without having eye-popping athleticism.

To state that Allen will never be a true impact pass rusher is ignorant. Even players with horrible athleticism like Markus Golden have shown to be impact pass rushers at the NFL level, largely due to his technique, hands, and instincts/awareness.


Duffman57 wrote:
If he didn't go to Alabama, I wouldn't have been shocked to see him treated extremely similar to the way Jonathan Bullard last year (with + handwork). I see a guy who's going to be very solid for a long time, but you're definitely not getting an elite player.


Can I borrow your crystal ball?


1st, No need to be an A hole, I didn't say he won't be x or is going to suck. I just said I don't see him being elite. That's what the draft is about, projection. I could be wrong, you could be too...

Bosa is different though. Like Allen he was one of the most functionally strong guys i've ever watched for his size, but the separator for me was that Bosa has freakish agility. I went back (since I get caught up in numbers sometimes), and looked at players with similar agility numbers, and basically couldn't find anything. When I looked at the last 15 years, the only players i could find that were 270+ (i'm giving Bosa the extra 1lb from the combine weight) and had a similar combo of 3 cone/SS (my qualifications were sub 6.9 3 cone and sub 4.25 SS at 270+), were JJ Watt and David Pollack (one of the bigger injury busts of all time). And the next closest player to do that weight wise was 255. People who say he wasn't a great athlete are really just looking at his 40 time...because he's got some freakish athletic qualities of agility and flexibility.

Allen has none of those. He's a different player, sure, and will be used differently, but has absolutely none of those qualities that is exacly what made Bosa so successful on top of the elite technique and functional strength.

As for the other guys you threw out as comparisons. Body type and play style is very different for most of them. You're comparing him to penetrating 3T types and 1 guy who's a similar weight but 3" taller. But at least I could see him be somewhat similar to Malik Jackson. Again, I don't think he's an awful player. I think he's a very solid base LE for a long time. But I just don't see him eclipsing 5-6 sacks a season, even if he's playing with elite guys around him like Malik was in Denver. So if you want a comparison, I'd say he's a slightly lesser Malik Jackson because of the lesser length.


I wasn't trying to be an A hole. The way you worded that last sentence made it sound like "you're definitely not getting an elite player" was a statement of fact.

I understand that Bosa is a better athlete than Allen when it comes to flexibility and agility. The point I was making though is that Allen won't be asked to bend and get around the edge; he will be playing inside in both base and nickel packages. And honestly, a lot of the big plays I saw from Bosa last year happened because of his elite technique, strength, hand usage, or effort, more-so than his flexibility or agility.

As I've already said, look at Markus Golden and the impact he's had without having anywhere close to NFL average athleticism. Look at Michael Bennet's combine performance vs. the impact he's had. There are guys in this league who win on a consistent basis with superior hand usage, technique, and instinct/awareness without having great athleticism. And Allen's athleticism is better than both the guys I named.

Allen will be our penetrating 3T in Nickel packages, and his body type isn't that far off to the guys I comped him to (who's the guy that is 3 inches taller?), and neither is his athleticism, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say at the end.


Gotcha, I was more trying to say I definitely don't see him being elite. Not that he's definitely not going to be elite, but I can see the misconception.

As for the difference in players. It's not so much the numbers, as it is the fact that all of the DT's that you mentioned dropped 10 or so lbs from their playing weight to perform better at the combine. Richardson played at nearly 310 in college and McCoy wasn't far from that (and plays around 305 now from what I've seen). Allen's playing weight was always around 285 (though he was listed at 294 this year, I've heard he didn't play at nearly that size, and I'd be concerned if any team wan't him to play at 300+ like Richardson/McCoy do).

I'm not sure what you were watching from bosa, but basically every sack he had was set up by his insane ability to engage OT's, and flip his hips to the QB while bending the edge all while disengaging. You don't see many guys that can get into the position where their upper body is strong enough to engage and disengage an OT with their hips pointed perpendicular to the OT. He got both Schraeder and Pastor on plays like that.

You don't NEED NFL average or better athleticism to succeed, but it's really, really hard to do it without it, and it's not like Goldon is lighting up the league with his sack production. 12.5 sacks is good, but he's getting sacks mostly because he's the "forgotten guy" on that team. I'd expect his sack #'s to go down without Campbell there (unless Nkemdiche can step up HUGE this year). Jones and Campbell took a LOT of attention off him.

Also while Bennett's numbers weren't great at the combine, he had a 37" vertical at 275 at his pro day, which is VERY good, and has some other very good numbers to compliment that (including a 1.62 10yd split). IIRC he was either hurt, or got hurt during his combine workout, and didn't finish.

I've seen a lot of places list Malik Jackson at 6'6" (and the rest at 6'5"), so I have him 3" taller than Allen, who was 6'2.5" at the combine).

I think he'll be a force vs the run, but i'd be surprised if you see him get more than 5-6 sacks on a consistent basis, and with that kind of production, for a DE, its hard to consider him an elite player. But I think the baseline for him is the kind of player that Jackson is. Great vs the run, and a meh pass rusher (unless he gets surrounded with talent, or literally nobody else even decent is on the DL, which isn't really the case in Washington.
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