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What's the story with Jonathan Allen
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wukusimw


Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Posts: 710
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It didn't seem he was tasked with attacking the backfield from inside which combined with this medical stuff might result in him being underrated. Might be best as a 5t but we haven't really seen hi as an attacking 3T.
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BleedTheClock


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wukusimw wrote:
It didn't seem he was tasked with attacking the backfield from inside which combined with this medical stuff might result in him being underrated. Might be best as a 5t but we haven't really seen hi as an attacking 3T.


I've seen him attack as a 3-Tech plenty. I was the first and only guy on the "Jonathan Allen is overrated" train a few months ago, but he's now got Jabrill Peppers syndrome. He's underrated. His strengths and weaknesses have always been the same. I'm not worried about the shoulder, but maybe I should be.

Strengths: Powerful frame. Ridiculous hand movement for a big dude. Clubs dudes out of the way with ease. Controls OL with a punch. Great at getting skinny and sneaking through creases on the interior. Fundamentally sound. Scheme versatile and could play arguably any spot on your DL in a 4-3. Great gap integrity. Knows when to slow down his rush and when to come out firing with moves.

Weaknesses: Rarely faces double teams playing on that Alabama front. Plays a little high and tends to use raw power to hold the point rather than explode underneath the OL and push them back. Not very good in space. Misses tackles and sacks because he appears to be plagued with slow-twitch muscles.

Overall: I think he's the safest player in the draft before news of the shoulder injury. I tend to be way more lenient on injury-prone prospects for some reason, so I am not killing him over the shoulder thing. I love his power and I have no questions he can be your base 4-3 LDE and move inside as a 3-Tech on passing downs. Nightmarish swim/rip when matched up on guards. I see him becoming a top 15 DT, but never really being in the discussion for #1 DL in the league. Just a consistent worker that is worthy of the #2 overall pick in the draft IMO.

I like Allen over Solomon Thomas. My player comparison for Jonathan Allen is Trevor Pryce.
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Duffman57


Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BleedTheClock wrote:
wukusimw wrote:
It didn't seem he was tasked with attacking the backfield from inside which combined with this medical stuff might result in him being underrated. Might be best as a 5t but we haven't really seen hi as an attacking 3T.


I've seen him attack as a 3-Tech plenty. I was the first and only guy on the "Jonathan Allen is overrated" train a few months ago, but he's now got Jabrill Peppers syndrome. He's underrated. His strengths and weaknesses have always been the same. I'm not worried about the shoulder, but maybe I should be.

Strengths: Powerful frame. Ridiculous hand movement for a big dude. Clubs dudes out of the way with ease. Controls OL with a punch. Great at getting skinny and sneaking through creases on the interior. Fundamentally sound. Scheme versatile and could play arguably any spot on your DL in a 4-3. Great gap integrity. Knows when to slow down his rush and when to come out firing with moves.

Weaknesses: Rarely faces double teams playing on that Alabama front. Plays a little high and tends to use raw power to hold the point rather than explode underneath the OL and push them back. Not very good in space. Misses tackles and sacks because he appears to be plagued with slow-twitch muscles.

Overall: I think he's the safest player in the draft before news of the shoulder injury. I tend to be way more lenient on injury-prone prospects for some reason, so I am not killing him over the shoulder thing. I love his power and I have no questions he can be your base 4-3 LDE and move inside as a 3-Tech on passing downs. Nightmarish swim/rip when matched up on guards. I see him becoming a top 15 DT, but never really being in the discussion for #1 DL in the league. Just a consistent worker that is worthy of the #2 overall pick in the draft IMO.

I like Allen over Solomon Thomas. My player comparison for Jonathan Allen is Trevor Pryce.


I'm fine with that, I just see it differently. There's nothing you said that i completely disagree with, other than drafting a guy who's going to be an solid, above average player for 5-10 years is worth a top 5 pick, I honestly don't see it being worth a top 10 pick TBH. I'm not saying that he won't be good, but I feel as though you can replicate the value you're going to get out of him with other guys in the 2nd/3rd rounds. Not that he's a bad player, but I don't see the premium qualities that you need, and honestly, I'm not sure a good team would keep him on the field in pass rush situations, even at the 3T.
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
wukusimw wrote:
It didn't seem he was tasked with attacking the backfield from inside which combined with this medical stuff might result in him being underrated. Might be best as a 5t but we haven't really seen hi as an attacking 3T.


I've seen him attack as a 3-Tech plenty. I was the first and only guy on the "Jonathan Allen is overrated" train a few months ago, but he's now got Jabrill Peppers syndrome. He's underrated. His strengths and weaknesses have always been the same. I'm not worried about the shoulder, but maybe I should be.

Strengths: Powerful frame. Ridiculous hand movement for a big dude. Clubs dudes out of the way with ease. Controls OL with a punch. Great at getting skinny and sneaking through creases on the interior. Fundamentally sound. Scheme versatile and could play arguably any spot on your DL in a 4-3. Great gap integrity. Knows when to slow down his rush and when to come out firing with moves.

Weaknesses: Rarely faces double teams playing on that Alabama front. Plays a little high and tends to use raw power to hold the point rather than explode underneath the OL and push them back. Not very good in space. Misses tackles and sacks because he appears to be plagued with slow-twitch muscles.

Overall: I think he's the safest player in the draft before news of the shoulder injury. I tend to be way more lenient on injury-prone prospects for some reason, so I am not killing him over the shoulder thing. I love his power and I have no questions he can be your base 4-3 LDE and move inside as a 3-Tech on passing downs. Nightmarish swim/rip when matched up on guards. I see him becoming a top 15 DT, but never really being in the discussion for #1 DL in the league. Just a consistent worker that is worthy of the #2 overall pick in the draft IMO.

I like Allen over Solomon Thomas. My player comparison for Jonathan Allen is Trevor Pryce.


I'm fine with that, I just see it differently. There's nothing you said that i completely disagree with, other than drafting a guy who's going to be an solid, above average player for 5-10 years is worth a top 5 pick, I honestly don't see it being worth a top 10 pick TBH. I'm not saying that he won't be good, but I feel as though you can replicate the value you're going to get out of him with other guys in the 2nd/3rd rounds. Not that he's a bad player, but I don't see the premium qualities that you need, and honestly, I'm not sure a good team would keep him on the field in pass rush situations, even at the 3T.


I'm curious, if he ran a 4.80 flat, would you be signing a different tune?
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Duffman57


Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 9462
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
Duffman57 wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
wukusimw wrote:
It didn't seem he was tasked with attacking the backfield from inside which combined with this medical stuff might result in him being underrated. Might be best as a 5t but we haven't really seen hi as an attacking 3T.


I've seen him attack as a 3-Tech plenty. I was the first and only guy on the "Jonathan Allen is overrated" train a few months ago, but he's now got Jabrill Peppers syndrome. He's underrated. His strengths and weaknesses have always been the same. I'm not worried about the shoulder, but maybe I should be.

Strengths: Powerful frame. Ridiculous hand movement for a big dude. Clubs dudes out of the way with ease. Controls OL with a punch. Great at getting skinny and sneaking through creases on the interior. Fundamentally sound. Scheme versatile and could play arguably any spot on your DL in a 4-3. Great gap integrity. Knows when to slow down his rush and when to come out firing with moves.

Weaknesses: Rarely faces double teams playing on that Alabama front. Plays a little high and tends to use raw power to hold the point rather than explode underneath the OL and push them back. Not very good in space. Misses tackles and sacks because he appears to be plagued with slow-twitch muscles.

Overall: I think he's the safest player in the draft before news of the shoulder injury. I tend to be way more lenient on injury-prone prospects for some reason, so I am not killing him over the shoulder thing. I love his power and I have no questions he can be your base 4-3 LDE and move inside as a 3-Tech on passing downs. Nightmarish swim/rip when matched up on guards. I see him becoming a top 15 DT, but never really being in the discussion for #1 DL in the league. Just a consistent worker that is worthy of the #2 overall pick in the draft IMO.

I like Allen over Solomon Thomas. My player comparison for Jonathan Allen is Trevor Pryce.


I'm fine with that, I just see it differently. There's nothing you said that i completely disagree with, other than drafting a guy who's going to be an solid, above average player for 5-10 years is worth a top 5 pick, I honestly don't see it being worth a top 10 pick TBH. I'm not saying that he won't be good, but I feel as though you can replicate the value you're going to get out of him with other guys in the 2nd/3rd rounds. Not that he's a bad player, but I don't see the premium qualities that you need, and honestly, I'm not sure a good team would keep him on the field in pass rush situations, even at the 3T.


I'm curious, if he ran a 4.80 flat, would you be signing a different tune?


Probably not. If his explosive numbers were really good or if he had a very good 3 cone it might make me go back and look at his tape again. But his explosive numbers are what you would expect from a guy 300+lbs or someone who's 6'7" (Campbell, Buckner and McDowell all have similar #'s, but with lengthened muscles, it makes the explosive jumps harder, but it doesn't really represent explosiveness properly). Generally you want more explosiveness out of a DL you're taking that early IMO.

And honestly, everything at the combine should relate back to the tape. And it absolutely does for Allen's #'s. He definitely shows a lack of explosion and really doesn't get up the field and penetrate, and really create on his own the way you want a top 10 DL to. His whole game is engaging and using technique/strength to disengage, and those types of guys' games don't translate as well as guys with plus athleticism with some developing to do.

And before you point out Bosa, Bosa had one of the most insane combo's of agility numbers I've seen. Only 3 guys in the past 15 years of the combine have similar #'s (sub 4.25 SS and sub 6.9s 3 cone at 270 (i'm giving Bosa the extra lb) or more), and those two other guys are Watt and David Pollak (who was a pure injury bust unfortunately). Solomon has a similar stat line to that, but is just off both numbers (like ~.02 on each IIRC). He's a freak, and I predict big success from Solomon Thomas, but I don't think you see it in the first year or two (similar to what you saw with Watt, slow year 1 and then an EXPLOSION of production all of a sudden, maybe not to the same extent, but similar pattern).
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DraftHobbyist


Joined: 17 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allen has a serious problem: He's undersized. If you want to take an undersized DL at the end of the 1st then okay, but taking one in the Top 5 is pretty risky. And I have a huge problem with his medical. Why would you take a guy who has arthritis in both shoulders in the Top 5 when you can get other great players? It's not like arthritis will develop at some point, he literally already has it. What you have an Allen is an undersized guy who is average athletically (7th at his position and in the 27 percentile in the NFL for SPARQ...27% meaning close to the bottom quarter) that has a long-term debilitating medical concern in both of his shoulders as a DL. To me, that is way too much risk for a Top 5 player. Even without the medical, I don't think he goes Top 5 tbh.
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know the combine was mediocre, but the tape is downright incredible at times.

I still think he is going to go top 6-8 if the medicals check out.


Him falling is probably more related to Solomon Thomas' rise pushing him down a little.
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Allen reminds me a lot of Timmy Jernigan in his size, hand use and power, and ability to literally play every DL spot and in a 3-4 and 4-3.

I know Jernigan went in the 2nd round, but if you re-drafted he would be a top 10 pick and is probably going to land a 10-11 million dollar deal next season.
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Jlash


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
John Allen reminds me a lot of Timmy Jernigan in his size, hand use and power, and ability to literally play every DL spot and in a 3-4 and 4-3.

I know Jernigan went in the 2nd round, but if you re-drafted he would be a top 10 pick and is probably going to land a 10-11 million dollar deal next season.



Strongly disagree, because that draft was ridiculous with skill players, but I get your point.
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dcarey20


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every time I watched him play for Bama he stood out.

He doesn't jump off the page as a high athleticism type guy with a ton of potential, but I think he's just a really good football player.
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G08


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcarey20 wrote:
Every time I watched him play for Bama he stood out.

He doesn't jump off the page as a high athleticism type guy with a ton of potential, but I think he's just a really good football player.


That's where I am... he's 286 lbs so I'm not going to call him undersized at all. Especially for the Bears' defense, our GM likes our 5Ts around 280 lbs, give or take.

He doesn't have an elite burst or speed element to his game, but I see a ton of Gerald McCoy in how he plays. For me, he's a solid 5T that will improve our run defense in base downs, and he can play anywhere on the line in sub packages (although I'd prefer him at 3T or NT).

Is that a top 3-5 pick? I don't know... I'm on record saying I much prefer Thomas, but I'd "settle" for Allen.
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MookieMonster


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:
Allen has a serious problem: He's undersized. If you want to take an undersized DL at the end of the 1st then okay, but taking one in the Top 5 is pretty risky. And I have a huge problem with his medical. Why would you take a guy who has arthritis in both shoulders in the Top 5 when you can get other great players? It's not like arthritis will develop at some point, he literally already has it. What you have an Allen is an undersized guy who is average athletically (7th at his position and in the 27 percentile in the NFL for SPARQ...27% meaning close to the bottom quarter) that has a long-term debilitating medical concern in both of his shoulders as a DL. To me, that is way too much risk for a Top 5 player. Even without the medical, I don't think he goes Top 5 tbh.

You think people would drop the under sized myth after Aaron Donald and Geno Atkins lit the league on fire as "under sized" DTs.
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TheVillain112


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MookieMonster wrote:
DraftHobbyist wrote:
Allen has a serious problem: He's undersized. If you want to take an undersized DL at the end of the 1st then okay, but taking one in the Top 5 is pretty risky. And I have a huge problem with his medical. Why would you take a guy who has arthritis in both shoulders in the Top 5 when you can get other great players? It's not like arthritis will develop at some point, he literally already has it. What you have an Allen is an undersized guy who is average athletically (7th at his position and in the 27 percentile in the NFL for SPARQ...27% meaning close to the bottom quarter) that has a long-term debilitating medical concern in both of his shoulders as a DL. To me, that is way too much risk for a Top 5 player. Even without the medical, I don't think he goes Top 5 tbh.

You think people would drop the under sized myth after Aaron Donald and Geno Atkins lit the league on fire as "under sized" DTs.


Aaron Donald, Geno Atkins, Grady Jarrett, Malik Jackson, Timmy Jernigan, Tyrone Crawford, etc...

I wouldn't consider Allen undersized...
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
John Allen reminds me a lot of Timmy Jernigan in his size, hand use and power, and ability to literally play every DL spot and in a 3-4 and 4-3.

I know Jernigan went in the 2nd round, but if you re-drafted he would be a top 10 pick and is probably going to land a 10-11 million dollar deal next season.


Why do people keep comparing Allen to guys that outweigh him by 15-20lbs and had really similar athletic numbers. I get it he's strong, but he's not the same athlete that McCoy or even Jernigan are, and he isn't big enough to play the NT and 2T like Jernigan can. You're comparing 2 guys who are 2/3 Tech DT's to a guy who's a perfect 4T DE, who might be able to kick inside to the 3T once in a while, and definitely needs to to rush the passer.

He's a dirty work guy, but I think he's going to lack the sand in his pants to play that role consistently in the NFL. He's much mroe in the mold of Tyson Jackson.
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Everything about Rivers is Awkward, reminiscent of a Giraffe with Down's Syndrome
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silus


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've watched the tape and i've listened to a ton of interviews. This guy sounds like a polished veteran. Easily one of the safest pick in the draft, imo. Myles Garrett is an admitted introvert with great measurables and a great combine. I just don't see how he compares game tape wise to some others, including Derek Barnett. And he's not a guy that will ever be a leader on your football team.
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