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What's the story with Jonathan Allen
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see a little Justin Smith in his game, if anything he's maybe lacking some of the brute strength Smith played with at SF.

I'd be fine with him at #3.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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48 1/2ers


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a prospect, I dont see much difference between Allen and Barnett. Not saying theyre the same player but that they both are in the same tier for me when I add up their pros and cons.
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

48 1/2ers wrote:
As a prospect, I dont see much difference between Allen and Barnett. Not saying theyre the same player but that they both are in the same tier for me when I add up their pros and cons.


Yeah, I can agree with that.

Both kind of have that "dominated the college ranks because they preyed on the underdeveloped" and did it with polish type of thing. Neither really has the athleticism that typically translates to their respective positions, but both have certain traits that translate to the ability to play early. Both use their hands extremely well, and while he isn't explosive and isn't going to threaten the edge, Barnett's ability to bend the edge is very solid. Similarly Allen's strength is going to play and its a solid NFL attribute, that long with the ability to disengage is going to make him very appealing to teams needing a base DE to kick inside to the 3T rushing the passer.

But to be honest, I just don't really see it from Allen, and definitely not the top 3 lock of a pick that people have been talking about for a little bit now. His combine confirmed what he shows on tape, that he's not very explosive, and that he's real limited in what he's going to be able to do rushing the passer because of it. He's probably not going to out-athlete, even a lot of OG's in the NFL. But again, his strength is going to play, he has a decent bull rush, and knows how to disengage and make plays off of it. The problem is that he's a pure run stopper in the NFL that can line up at 2-3 positions on the DL, with extremely limited pass rush upside, in a league where Pass rushing is the premium quality. In college, he preyed on players who weren't as strong as him lunging at him to get the necessary force to stop him. He won't have that benefit in the pros. He seems like a similar player to Tyson Jackson coming out to me. I don't think you're going to get the high 1st round value that you are going to have to pay as of the rumors right now come the end of the season.
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
As a prospect, I dont see much difference between Allen and Barnett. Not saying theyre the same player but that they both are in the same tier for me when I add up their pros and cons.


Yeah, I can agree with that.

Both kind of have that "dominated the college ranks because they preyed on the underdeveloped" and did it with polish type of thing. Neither really has the athleticism that typically translates to their respective positions, but both have certain traits that translate to the ability to play early. Both use their hands extremely well, and while he isn't explosive and isn't going to threaten the edge, Barnett's ability to bend the edge is very solid. Similarly Allen's strength is going to play and its a solid NFL attribute, that long with the ability to disengage is going to make him very appealing to teams needing a base DE to kick inside to the 3T rushing the passer.

But to be honest, I just don't really see it from Allen, and definitely not the top 3 lock of a pick that people have been talking about for a little bit now. His combine confirmed what he shows on tape, that he's not very explosive, and that he's real limited in what he's going to be able to do rushing the passer because of it. He's probably not going to out-athlete, even a lot of OG's in the NFL. But again, his strength is going to play, he has a decent bull rush, and knows how to disengage and make plays off of it. The problem is that he's a pure run stopper in the NFL that can line up at 2-3 positions on the DL, with extremely limited pass rush upside, in a league where Pass rushing is the premium quality. In college, he preyed on players who weren't as strong as him lunging at him to get the necessary force to stop him. He won't have that benefit in the pros. He seems like a similar player to Tyson Jackson coming out to me. I don't think you're going to get the high 1st round value that you are going to have to pay as of the rumors right now come the end of the season.


Awfully similar combine results compared to Gerald McCoy.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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brownie man


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
Duffman57 wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
As a prospect, I dont see much difference between Allen and Barnett. Not saying theyre the same player but that they both are in the same tier for me when I add up their pros and cons.


Yeah, I can agree with that.

Both kind of have that "dominated the college ranks because they preyed on the underdeveloped" and did it with polish type of thing. Neither really has the athleticism that typically translates to their respective positions, but both have certain traits that translate to the ability to play early. Both use their hands extremely well, and while he isn't explosive and isn't going to threaten the edge, Barnett's ability to bend the edge is very solid. Similarly Allen's strength is going to play and its a solid NFL attribute, that long with the ability to disengage is going to make him very appealing to teams needing a base DE to kick inside to the 3T rushing the passer.

But to be honest, I just don't really see it from Allen, and definitely not the top 3 lock of a pick that people have been talking about for a little bit now. His combine confirmed what he shows on tape, that he's not very explosive, and that he's real limited in what he's going to be able to do rushing the passer because of it. He's probably not going to out-athlete, even a lot of OG's in the NFL. But again, his strength is going to play, he has a decent bull rush, and knows how to disengage and make plays off of it. The problem is that he's a pure run stopper in the NFL that can line up at 2-3 positions on the DL, with extremely limited pass rush upside, in a league where Pass rushing is the premium quality. In college, he preyed on players who weren't as strong as him lunging at him to get the necessary force to stop him. He won't have that benefit in the pros. He seems like a similar player to Tyson Jackson coming out to me. I don't think you're going to get the high 1st round value that you are going to have to pay as of the rumors right now come the end of the season.


Awfully similar combine results compared to Gerald McCoy.


I do think his best position would be a 43 UT.

I was looking at combine results too he is basically the same exact athlete Jonathan Babineaux is.
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
Duffman57 wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
As a prospect, I dont see much difference between Allen and Barnett. Not saying theyre the same player but that they both are in the same tier for me when I add up their pros and cons.


Yeah, I can agree with that.

Both kind of have that "dominated the college ranks because they preyed on the underdeveloped" and did it with polish type of thing. Neither really has the athleticism that typically translates to their respective positions, but both have certain traits that translate to the ability to play early. Both use their hands extremely well, and while he isn't explosive and isn't going to threaten the edge, Barnett's ability to bend the edge is very solid. Similarly Allen's strength is going to play and its a solid NFL attribute, that long with the ability to disengage is going to make him very appealing to teams needing a base DE to kick inside to the 3T rushing the passer.

But to be honest, I just don't really see it from Allen, and definitely not the top 3 lock of a pick that people have been talking about for a little bit now. His combine confirmed what he shows on tape, that he's not very explosive, and that he's real limited in what he's going to be able to do rushing the passer because of it. He's probably not going to out-athlete, even a lot of OG's in the NFL. But again, his strength is going to play, he has a decent bull rush, and knows how to disengage and make plays off of it. The problem is that he's a pure run stopper in the NFL that can line up at 2-3 positions on the DL, with extremely limited pass rush upside, in a league where Pass rushing is the premium quality. In college, he preyed on players who weren't as strong as him lunging at him to get the necessary force to stop him. He won't have that benefit in the pros. He seems like a similar player to Tyson Jackson coming out to me. I don't think you're going to get the high 1st round value that you are going to have to pay as of the rumors right now come the end of the season.


Awfully similar combine results compared to Gerald McCoy.


Similar, with 1 or 2 significantly different drills, and Allen is 10lbs lighter. That's not good....and honestly McCoy tested well below average, Allen doesn't have near the quickness off the snap and penetration ability that McCoy had. They're not close as players IMO.
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G08


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
G08 wrote:
Duffman57 wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
As a prospect, I dont see much difference between Allen and Barnett. Not saying theyre the same player but that they both are in the same tier for me when I add up their pros and cons.


Yeah, I can agree with that.

Both kind of have that "dominated the college ranks because they preyed on the underdeveloped" and did it with polish type of thing. Neither really has the athleticism that typically translates to their respective positions, but both have certain traits that translate to the ability to play early. Both use their hands extremely well, and while he isn't explosive and isn't going to threaten the edge, Barnett's ability to bend the edge is very solid. Similarly Allen's strength is going to play and its a solid NFL attribute, that long with the ability to disengage is going to make him very appealing to teams needing a base DE to kick inside to the 3T rushing the passer.

But to be honest, I just don't really see it from Allen, and definitely not the top 3 lock of a pick that people have been talking about for a little bit now. His combine confirmed what he shows on tape, that he's not very explosive, and that he's real limited in what he's going to be able to do rushing the passer because of it. He's probably not going to out-athlete, even a lot of OG's in the NFL. But again, his strength is going to play, he has a decent bull rush, and knows how to disengage and make plays off of it. The problem is that he's a pure run stopper in the NFL that can line up at 2-3 positions on the DL, with extremely limited pass rush upside, in a league where Pass rushing is the premium quality. In college, he preyed on players who weren't as strong as him lunging at him to get the necessary force to stop him. He won't have that benefit in the pros. He seems like a similar player to Tyson Jackson coming out to me. I don't think you're going to get the high 1st round value that you are going to have to pay as of the rumors right now come the end of the season.


Awfully similar combine results compared to Gerald McCoy.


Similar, with 1 or 2 significantly different drills, and Allen is 10lbs lighter. That's not good....and honestly McCoy tested well below average, Allen doesn't have near the quickness off the snap and penetration ability that McCoy had. They're not close as players IMO.


6" on the broad jump and .17 on the cone... other than that pretty much identical in athletic testing. Yeah Allen was 10 lbs lighter and I'll argue his athleticism doesn't flash on tape, but he is just such a skilled technician and knows how to use the violence in his hands to keep offensive linemen off guard.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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gah112


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure the combine does a good job measuring these athletes' upper body violence and that's one area where Allen excels. While he's not exceptionally quick on his feet, I think he has upper body strength/explosiveness that helps him defeat blocks with ease.
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G08


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gah112 wrote:
I'm not sure the combine does a good job measuring these athletes' upper body violence and that's one area where Allen excels. While he's not exceptionally quick on his feet, I think he has upper body strength/explosiveness that helps him defeat blocks with ease.


His bull/jerk consistently put linemen on their rear ends in college; it was beautiful to watch. He's so quick to counter that I really think he can have a seamless transition to the NFL. Just needs to get stronger and, ideally, develop more burst/quickness if possible.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
gah112 wrote:
I'm not sure the combine does a good job measuring these athletes' upper body violence and that's one area where Allen excels. While he's not exceptionally quick on his feet, I think he has upper body strength/explosiveness that helps him defeat blocks with ease.


His bull/jerk consistently put linemen on their rear ends in college; it was beautiful to watch. He's so quick to counter that I really think he can have a seamless transition to the NFL. Just needs to get stronger and, ideally, develop more burst/quickness if possible.


But that's what I mean, the Bull/Jerk is a move built to take his strength and force OG's to lean on him, and then he can make the easy move when he's off balanced. I think he has plus strength, but I think its something most good NFL OG's can handle, which means you don't get them off balance/lunging in order to keep up with the bull rush, and therefore the jerk move is useless. I'm sure he'll get by some OG's with it every now and again, or just catch one slipping a few times, but I don't see that as a move that's going to consistently win in the NFL.

Honestly, I see him as a pure (and very good) NFL run stopper that is getting sub-5 sacks a year, and that, to me, isn't a guy even close to worthy of a top 10 pick.
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G08


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
G08 wrote:
gah112 wrote:
I'm not sure the combine does a good job measuring these athletes' upper body violence and that's one area where Allen excels. While he's not exceptionally quick on his feet, I think he has upper body strength/explosiveness that helps him defeat blocks with ease.


His bull/jerk consistently put linemen on their rear ends in college; it was beautiful to watch. He's so quick to counter that I really think he can have a seamless transition to the NFL. Just needs to get stronger and, ideally, develop more burst/quickness if possible.


But that's what I mean, the Bull/Jerk is a move built to take his strength and force OG's to lean on him, and then he can make the easy move when he's off balanced. I think he has plus strength, but I think its something most good NFL OG's can handle, which means you don't get them off balance/lunging in order to keep up with the bull rush, and therefore the jerk move is useless. I'm sure he'll get by some OG's with it every now and again, or just catch one slipping a few times, but I don't see that as a move that's going to consistently win in the NFL.

Honestly, I see him as a pure (and very good) NFL run stopper that is getting sub-5 sacks a year, and that, to me, isn't a guy even close to worthy of a top 10 pick.


It's one move in his arsenal; I've seen him generate pressure with myriad moves/hand fighting. I don't think he's going to be like Aaron Donald where he can beat you with pure speed/twitch, but I think a 5-8 sack guy isn't out of the question.

I like him quite a bit at 5T in base and 3T in sub. Is it worth a top 3-4 pick? Eh... tough call there (I like more "juice" out of my linemen picking that high) but it is what it is.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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VanS


Joined: 21 Apr 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SilverNBlackFan wrote:
G08 wrote:
I just wish I saw more burst out of him. He's a great technician, I love his hand usage and his bull jerk but I just wish he had a little more juice to his game.


I feel you.

I feel like he's destined to be like an 89 Overall rating type guy in the pros, which is good. But if I'm drafting you top 5, I want 90+


I'm thinking more like 79 overall.

Jonathan Allen has always looked like an average player to me. Even before the concerns over his arthritic shoulders or the poor combine, his film never impressed me. He was always rather ordinary. And also looked like a sub-par athlete.

My favorite player on that Alabama d-line the last 2 years has been sophomore DT Da'Ron Payne. Now this is a guy who I think he can be really good at the next level.
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VanS


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
As a prospect, I dont see much difference between Allen and Barnett. Not saying theyre the same player but that they both are in the same tier for me when I add up their pros and cons.


Yeah, I can agree with that.

Both kind of have that "dominated the college ranks because they preyed on the underdeveloped" and did it with polish type of thing. Neither really has the athleticism that typically translates to their respective positions, but both have certain traits that translate to the ability to play early. Both use their hands extremely well, and while he isn't explosive and isn't going to threaten the edge, Barnett's ability to bend the edge is very solid. Similarly Allen's strength is going to play and its a solid NFL attribute, that long with the ability to disengage is going to make him very appealing to teams needing a base DE to kick inside to the 3T rushing the passer.

But to be honest, I just don't really see it from Allen, and definitely not the top 3 lock of a pick that people have been talking about for a little bit now. His combine confirmed what he shows on tape, that he's not very explosive, and that he's real limited in what he's going to be able to do rushing the passer because of it. He's probably not going to out-athlete, even a lot of OG's in the NFL. But again, his strength is going to play, he has a decent bull rush, and knows how to disengage and make plays off of it. The problem is that he's a pure run stopper in the NFL that can line up at 2-3 positions on the DL, with extremely limited pass rush upside, in a league where Pass rushing is the premium quality. In college, he preyed on players who weren't as strong as him lunging at him to get the necessary force to stop him. He won't have that benefit in the pros. He seems like a similar player to Tyson Jackson coming out to me. I don't think you're going to get the high 1st round value that you are going to have to pay as of the rumors right now come the end of the season.


Wow. Great post. Total co-sign on everything.

I've also been very down on Allen and Barnett compared to most. They can be solid NFL players. Especially Barnett. But they are not top 10 type players. Neither is the type of freak athlete that dominates at the NFL level.

Barnett is a late first round value IMO. While I would rate Allen more in the 2nd-3rd round.
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Ragnarok


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In terms of value, I'd rather draft Tomlinson in the 3rd or 4th than Allen in the 1st. Or a number of the other 3rd-4th round DTs. I don't think Allen is that much better of a prospect than a lot of those guys. I wouldn't be surprised if Godchaux, Walker, Adams, Watkins, Tomlinson...any number of those guys...ended up with more productive careers. Most are twitchier athletes that need technique work. Higher ceiling there than a technician with limited athleticism.
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G08


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think his issue in that 40 was he didn't have that additional gear, I'm okay with a 1.74 ten yard split out of a ~290 lbs dude. Not to keep making the comp but Gerald McCoy had the same split.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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