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Giants Sign JPP to Multi-Year Contract
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HTTRG3Dynasty


Joined: 03 Apr 2012
Posts: 10605
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
minutemancl wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Wasn't the Giants defense at their best down the stretch, with JPP off the field? At the very least, it looked like the defense didn't miss a beat without him.


We missed him for sure. Okwara isn't the same player JPP is, especially against the run. There's a reason Zeke was only able to run for 50 yards in the first meeting but over 100 in the second. The defense hit it's stride a little bit before the midway point of the season and continued throughout the rest of the regular season.


The main reason for that I think was the Cowboys having La'el Collins in the lineup over Ronald Leary. Zeke really started to break out last year once Collins was replaced. The Redskins, who had one of the worst run defenses in the league last year, held Zeke to 83 yards, 1 TD, with a 4 YPC average in week 2 with Collins in the lineup. Later in the season, with Leary in the lineup, Zeke had 97 yards, 2 TDs, with a 4.8 YPC average.

You're obviously right that Okwara isn't the same player JPP is. But my question is, how much more value does JPP actually add? Is it worth $15.5M per season in exchange for the depth you could be building along the DL as a whole?


What depth? By that mean from where? The best away to address that is through the draft. Say we let JPP go, we pay Hankins? Problem is that in today's market edge players are expensive. I didn't see anybody out there in the market where we could've got great value for what we pay JPP.


Again, your defense showed down the stretch last year that it doesn't really need JPP to still be elite. You could have upgraded your OL, your RBs, your TEs, etc. and that money would have been better allocated IMO.


And down the stretch, replace Okwara with JPP and you'll see the difference. Does Houston not need JJ Watt because they were great without him? Is that contract a overpay because they were great without him?

Aside from Martellus, who can we really have gotten that would've added value? RBs, again who? Before we even address the RB position, we address the o-line first and we also have the draft for that. It's easy to say we could've gotten so and so but our issues on the OL lie on the edges not interior and the tackle market was weak. We'll wait and see whether he's worth the money.


JJ Watt takes his defense to another level. I haven't seen evidence that JPP does the same. There comes a point of diminishing returns when you're putting too much money towards one position group, and allocating some of that money to other groups helps the team become more balanced and gives it a better chance of winning it all.

The tackle class is weak in the draft as well, so it should be interesting to see how you guys address that. But it's more than just about what you could have done this off-season in FA if you didn't have to pay JPP. It's about JPP's contract limiting you in future off-seasons as well.

The bottom line is, I just didn't notice a big difference in your defensive performance with JPP off the field (it arguably looked slightly better), and it will be interesting to see if that money could have been better spent elsewhere.


JJ Watt takes that defense to another level? If I'm not mistaken Texans were the #1 ranked defense last year without him. There wasn't a discernible difference With or without him. They were still pretty great without him. But it's irresponsible for me to say they're as good or better without him. Let's be real. It really has no credibility. I don't know what numbers you're referring to that suggest so but correlation doesn't equal causation. A

Same applies to JPP we were great with him and great without him. But we also have a great secondary who were great in coverage. Every team has flaws and you can't address all those needs in the offseason. Every team has holes and no team is going to have 0 holes. What teams do is try to mask those holes as much as possible

We invested heavily in the d-line which is where you should invest your money. Saying it looked better without JPP is not only incorrect but quite short sighted.

At the end of the day 15.5 million it's difficult to gauge what value you can get with that in FA. I don't know what guys of good quality we could get that would trump what JPP brings.


Houston was the 8th ranked defense by weighted DVOA last year. They were still very good without Watt mainly because of Clowney's emergence last year, finally living up to his draft status, and the emergence of Bouye - becoming a top CB. It's likely Watt would have taken them to another level - from top 8 to top 2 or 3. I don't think JPP moves the needle anywhere near as much, so it's not a great comparison to begin with.
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 22849
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
minutemancl wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Wasn't the Giants defense at their best down the stretch, with JPP off the field? At the very least, it looked like the defense didn't miss a beat without him.


We missed him for sure. Okwara isn't the same player JPP is, especially against the run. There's a reason Zeke was only able to run for 50 yards in the first meeting but over 100 in the second. The defense hit it's stride a little bit before the midway point of the season and continued throughout the rest of the regular season.


The main reason for that I think was the Cowboys having La'el Collins in the lineup over Ronald Leary. Zeke really started to break out last year once Collins was replaced. The Redskins, who had one of the worst run defenses in the league last year, held Zeke to 83 yards, 1 TD, with a 4 YPC average in week 2 with Collins in the lineup. Later in the season, with Leary in the lineup, Zeke had 97 yards, 2 TDs, with a 4.8 YPC average.

You're obviously right that Okwara isn't the same player JPP is. But my question is, how much more value does JPP actually add? Is it worth $15.5M per season in exchange for the depth you could be building along the DL as a whole?


What depth? By that mean from where? The best away to address that is through the draft. Say we let JPP go, we pay Hankins? Problem is that in today's market edge players are expensive. I didn't see anybody out there in the market where we could've got great value for what we pay JPP.


Again, your defense showed down the stretch last year that it doesn't really need JPP to still be elite. You could have upgraded your OL, your RBs, your TEs, etc. and that money would have been better allocated IMO.


And down the stretch, replace Okwara with JPP and you'll see the difference. Does Houston not need JJ Watt because they were great without him? Is that contract a overpay because they were great without him?

Aside from Martellus, who can we really have gotten that would've added value? RBs, again who? Before we even address the RB position, we address the o-line first and we also have the draft for that. It's easy to say we could've gotten so and so but our issues on the OL lie on the edges not interior and the tackle market was weak. We'll wait and see whether he's worth the money.


JJ Watt takes his defense to another level. I haven't seen evidence that JPP does the same. There comes a point of diminishing returns when you're putting too much money towards one position group, and allocating some of that money to other groups helps the team become more balanced and gives it a better chance of winning it all.

The tackle class is weak in the draft as well, so it should be interesting to see how you guys address that. But it's more than just about what you could have done this off-season in FA if you didn't have to pay JPP. It's about JPP's contract limiting you in future off-seasons as well.

The bottom line is, I just didn't notice a big difference in your defensive performance with JPP off the field (it arguably looked slightly better), and it will be interesting to see if that money could have been better spent elsewhere.


JJ Watt takes that defense to another level? If I'm not mistaken Texans were the #1 ranked defense last year without him. There wasn't a discernible difference With or without him. They were still pretty great without him. But it's irresponsible for me to say they're as good or better without him. Let's be real. It really has no credibility. I don't know what numbers you're referring to that suggest so but correlation doesn't equal causation. A

Same applies to JPP we were great with him and great without him. But we also have a great secondary who were great in coverage. Every team has flaws and you can't address all those needs in the offseason. Every team has holes and no team is going to have 0 holes. What teams do is try to mask those holes as much as possible

We invested heavily in the d-line which is where you should invest your money. Saying it looked better without JPP is not only incorrect but quite short sighted.

At the end of the day 15.5 million it's difficult to gauge what value you can get with that in FA. I don't know what guys of good quality we could get that would trump what JPP brings.


Houston was the 8th ranked defense by weighted DVOA last year. They were still very good without Watt mainly because of Clowney's emergence last year, finally living up to his draft status, and the emergence of Bouye - becoming a top CB. It's likely Watt would have taken them to another level - from top 8 to top 2 or 3. I don't think JPP moves the needle anywhere near as much, so it's not a great comparison to begin with.


Of course JPP is not better than JJ Watt. And his impact by virtue of that isn't gonna be as big. But you're very wrong if you think that without JPP this defense wouldn't miss a beat. I don't care what numbers you have to suggest it, they mean little to nothing truth be told.
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MrBurfict


Joined: 10 Jan 2016
Posts: 359
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a shade less than $7 million per finger/digit. Seems about right. Guaranteed $ is on the high end, though. Either way, good for him for capitalizing.
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