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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
lavar703 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Drafting for immediate needs is a bad plan for the draft. I would love to draft a Dlineman at 17, unfortunately this draft doesn't have any worth taking there (that will be available).
Malik McDowell says hi. He has top 10 talent and most big boards have him around our selection within 5 picks - I know Drafttek does.

By the way, I couldn't sleep last night so I was flipping through the channels and ended up seeing that a Michigan State vs Indiana game was on tv at 1:00 am on the Big 10 network. Malik McDowell was healthy and played in the game. He was unblockable all game long from his LDT position. I'm not sure if Dan Freeney was the one trying to block him, but McDowell abused whomever it was all game long.
I think McDowell will bust and hope we don't select him.


I agree. I'd rather take my chances with Monty Adams in the second round than McDowell in the first.
I'm not sure how taking the less talented player a round later is a better alternative than taking a player with top 10 talent who could fall to us in round 1. Confused

Adams has the same consistently question marks as Mcdowell does, so does Brantley, Wormley and the other DT's slated to get drafted after McDowell. The difference between them and McDowell is that McDowell has top 10 talent and they don't.
McDowell is not a top 10 talent. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. You are seriously overrating him. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes in the 2nd round.
There's a difference between talent level and what he's shown. McDowell has top 10 talent meaning he's got that natural ability and pure talent and just based off of his natural talent you would say he's worthy of a top 10 pick. That's why before the season started it was projected he would go as high as top 5 in the draft.

He didn't have a good junior season for multiple reasons - including injury - and some scouts question his work ethic and love of the game. Because of those three reasons he has fallen from having a preseason top five projection to being likely a mid to late first draft pick, but that doesn't take away from his natural talent. His natural talent is on par with Johnathan Allen, McDowell just hasn't lived up to his talent level yet because of various reasons.

Put it this way, if this was the MLB, NHL or NBA draft he most certainly would go top 10 because in those drafts teams draft players more based on their projections on what the player will become in 2 or 3 years and not what they did last year during the college season or what they will do immediately.

Nothing has changed with McDowell's potential. His potential is still that of a top 10 player and as high as Johnathan Allen's. McDowell just got hurt and didn't have the junior year he expects to or what scouts expected him to which put into question worth ethic issues and his desire for football.
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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Posts: 18978
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
lavar703 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Drafting for immediate needs is a bad plan for the draft. I would love to draft a Dlineman at 17, unfortunately this draft doesn't have any worth taking there (that will be available).
Malik McDowell says hi. He has top 10 talent and most big boards have him around our selection within 5 picks - I know Drafttek does.

By the way, I couldn't sleep last night so I was flipping through the channels and ended up seeing that a Michigan State vs Indiana game was on tv at 1:00 am on the Big 10 network. Malik McDowell was healthy and played in the game. He was unblockable all game long from his LDT position. I'm not sure if Dan Freeney was the one trying to block him, but McDowell abused whomever it was all game long.
I think McDowell will bust and hope we don't select him.


I agree. I'd rather take my chances with Monty Adams in the second round than McDowell in the first.
I'm not sure how taking the less talented player a round later is a better alternative than taking a player with top 10 talent who could fall to us in round 1. Confused

Adams has the same consistently question marks as Mcdowell does, so does Brantley, Wormley and the other DT's slated to get drafted after McDowell. The difference between them and McDowell is that McDowell has top 10 talent and they don't.
McDowell is not a top 10 talent. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. You are seriously overrating him. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes in the 2nd round.
There's a difference between talent level and what he's shown. McDowell has top 10 talent meaning he's got that natural ability and pure talent and just based off of his natural talent you would say he's worthy of a top 10 pick. That's why before the season started it was projected he would go as high as top 5 in the draft.

He didn't have a good junior season for multiple reasons - including injury - and some scouts question his work ethic and love of the game. Because of those three reasons he has fallen from having a preseason top five projection to being likely a mid to late first draft pick, but that doesn't take away from his natural talent. His natural talent is on par with Johnathan Allen, McDowell just hasn't lived up to his talent level yet because of various reasons.

Put it this way, if this was the MLB, NHL or NBA draft he most certainly would go top 10 because in those drafts teams draft players more based on their projections on what the player will become in 2 or 3 years and not what they did last year during the college season or what they will do immediately.

Nothing has changed with McDowell's potential. His potential is still that of a top 10 player and as high as Johnathan Allen's. McDowell just got hurt and didn't have the junior year he expects to or what scouts expected him to which put into question worth ethic issues and his desire for football.
His potential is not what you are claiming it to be. He doesn't have the stats to support what you are saying. And if you compare him to players that were "raw" athletes coming in, he doesn't compare in athleticism:

Ziggy Ansah:

6'5" 271 lbs, 35 & 1/8 arm length

40 yard - 4.63 sec
bench - 21 reps
vertical - 34.5 inches
broad jump - 118.0 inches
3 cone - 7.11 sec
20 yard shuttle - 4.26 sec


JJ Watt:

6'5" 290 lbs, 34 arm length

40 yard - 4.84 sec
bench - 34 reps
vertical - 37.0 inches
broad jump - 120.0 inches
3 cone - 6.88 sec
20 yard shuttle - 4.21 sec

Malik McDowell:

6'6" 295 lbs, 34 & 3/4 arm length

40 yard - 4.85 sec
bench - 23 reps
vertical - 28.5 inches
broad jump - 112.0 inches
3 cone - 7.69 sec
20 yard shuttle - 4.53 sec

So not only has McDowell not shown he can produce in college, he doesn't compare to top players athletically either. I don't think his 40 time matters at his size, and with his long arms it doesn't surprise me he didn't put up a but of bench reps. However, his vertical jump, which is the best measurement of a quick first step for pass rushers, really scares me. His 3 cone and 20 yard shuttle are also poor, which measure change in direction.

So not explosive athlete, mediocre college production, I don't think McDowell is worth a first round pick.
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comparing McDowell to Ziggy Ansah & JJ Watt who were edge pass rushers in college doesn't hold much water imo.

McDowell is a DT and has always been one. He'd be a DE in a 3-4, but a DT/3-Tech in a 4-3.

Again, preseason he was projected to go top 5. That didn't just come out of no where. He had a very impressive sophmore season as an interior DL.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


Joined: 03 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McDowell's numbers are similar to Gerald McCoy's:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=65843&draftyear=2010&genpos=DT

Also Deforest Buckner. I'm not worried about his combine performance.

The only legit knock I agree on with him is work ethic and character concerns. But I think Tomsula can make it work.
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Doc Draper


Joined: 18 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
lavar703 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Drafting for immediate needs is a bad plan for the draft. I would love to draft a Dlineman at 17, unfortunately this draft doesn't have any worth taking there (that will be available).
Malik McDowell says hi. He has top 10 talent and most big boards have him around our selection within 5 picks - I know Drafttek does.

By the way, I couldn't sleep last night so I was flipping through the channels and ended up seeing that a Michigan State vs Indiana game was on tv at 1:00 am on the Big 10 network. Malik McDowell was healthy and played in the game. He was unblockable all game long from his LDT position. I'm not sure if Dan Freeney was the one trying to block him, but McDowell abused whomever it was all game long.
I think McDowell will bust and hope we don't select him.


I agree. I'd rather take my chances with Monty Adams in the second round than McDowell in the first.
I'm not sure how taking the less talented player a round later is a better alternative than taking a player with top 10 talent who could fall to us in round 1. Confused

Adams has the same consistently question marks as Mcdowell does, so does Brantley, Wormley and the other DT's slated to get drafted after McDowell. The difference between them and McDowell is that McDowell has top 10 talent and they don't.
McDowell is not a top 10 talent. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. You are seriously overrating him. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes in the 2nd round.
There's a difference between talent level and what he's shown. McDowell has top 10 talent meaning he's got that natural ability and pure talent and just based off of his natural talent you would say he's worthy of a top 10 pick. That's why before the season started it was projected he would go as high as top 5 in the draft.

He didn't have a good junior season for multiple reasons - including injury - and some scouts question his work ethic and love of the game. Because of those three reasons he has fallen from having a preseason top five projection to being likely a mid to late first draft pick, but that doesn't take away from his natural talent. His natural talent is on par with Johnathan Allen, McDowell just hasn't lived up to his talent level yet because of various reasons.

Put it this way, if this was the MLB, NHL or NBA draft he most certainly would go top 10 because in those drafts teams draft players more based on their projections on what the player will become in 2 or 3 years and not what they did last year during the college season or what they will do immediately.

Nothing has changed with McDowell's potential. His potential is still that of a top 10 player and as high as Johnathan Allen's. McDowell just got hurt and didn't have the junior year he expects to or what scouts expected him to which put into question worth ethic issues and his desire for football.
His potential is not what you are claiming it to be. He doesn't have the stats to support what you are saying. And if you compare him to players that were "raw" athletes coming in, he doesn't compare in athleticism:

Ziggy Ansah:

6'5" 271 lbs, 35 & 1/8 arm length

40 yard - 4.63 sec
bench - 21 reps
vertical - 34.5 inches
broad jump - 118.0 inches
3 cone - 7.11 sec
20 yard shuttle - 4.26 sec


JJ Watt:

6'5" 290 lbs, 34 arm length

40 yard - 4.84 sec
bench - 34 reps
vertical - 37.0 inches
broad jump - 120.0 inches
3 cone - 6.88 sec
20 yard shuttle - 4.21 sec

Malik McDowell:

6'6" 295 lbs, 34 & 3/4 arm length

40 yard - 4.85 sec
bench - 23 reps
vertical - 28.5 inches
broad jump - 112.0 inches
3 cone - 7.69 sec
20 yard shuttle - 4.53 sec

So not only has McDowell not shown he can produce in college, he doesn't compare to top players athletically either. I don't think his 40 time matters at his size, and with his long arms it doesn't surprise me he didn't put up a but of bench reps. However, his vertical jump, which is the best measurement of a quick first step for pass rushers, really scares me. His 3 cone and 20 yard shuttle are also poor, which measure change in direction.

So not explosive athlete, mediocre college production, I don't think McDowell is worth a first round pick.


hes this years andrew billings that baylor NT last year dropping way farther than anyone thought.
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
McDowell's numbers are similar to Gerald McCoy's:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=65843&draftyear=2010&genpos=DT

Also Deforest Buckner. I'm not worried about his combine performance.

The only legit knock I agree on with him is work ethic and character concerns. But I think Tomsula can make it work.
Same here and I think those concerns are a bit overblown. All it takes is one scout to say something and then it becomes a "thing." Remember the same things were said about Trent Williams in 2010. I guess the off the concerns were legitimate but not the work ethic and leadership issues.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doc Draper wrote:
He's this years andrew billings that baylor NT last year dropping way farther than anyone thought.
Billings had concerns with his knee, McDowell doesn't have any medical red flags.
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taylormade


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Posts: 697
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMH, Didn't you all learn with Nkemdiche last year? Laughing

We ain't picking McDowell, nor should we. Brantley either. We need grown men, not boys. (Wormley)
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

taylormade wrote:
SMH, Didn't you all learn with Nkemdiche last year? Laughing

We ain't picking McDowell, nor should we. Brantley either. We need grown men, not boys. (Wormley)
We shouldn't take Wormley in round 1, his talent doesn't warrant that selection.

As for Nkemdiche, I think he is going to break out this year. He's taking Calais Campbell's spot, it will be interesting to see how well he does. I do know this much, I haven't heard of him getting in trouble since the Cardinals drafted him.
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taylormade


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:

We shouldn't take Wormley in round 1, his talent doesn't warrant that selection.

As for Nkemdiche, I think he is going to break out this year. He's taking Calais Campbell's spot, it will be interesting to see how well he does. I do know this much, I haven't heard of him getting in trouble since the Cardinals drafted him.


Maybe you should do some more research on Nkemdiche then, he was in Arians doghouse all year Laughing

& Agreed with Wormley. More Round 2 Player.
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lavar703


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

taylormade wrote:
SMH, Didn't you all learn with Nkemdiche last year? Laughing

We ain't picking McDowell, nor should we. Brantley either. We need grown men, not boys. (Wormley)


So we need a less talented JAG with our pick instead? Wormley is the most overrated prospect in this draft.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

taylormade wrote:
turtle28 wrote:

We shouldn't take Wormley in round 1, his talent doesn't warrant that selection.

As for Nkemdiche, I think he is going to break out this year. He's taking Calais Campbell's spot, it will be interesting to see how well he does. I do know this much, I haven't heard of him getting in trouble since the Cardinals drafted him.


Maybe you should do some more research on Nkemdiche then, he was in Arians doghouse all year Laughing

& Agreed with Wormley. More Round 2 Player.
I meant off the field trouble, which is the reason he fell to the end of the first round. Arians had him in his dog house because he said he needed to learn how to be a pro. I took that as he needed to learn how to study better and practice better before he got more playing time. Basically, he needed to grow up and act like a pro in every way and realize that he's not in college anymore.

Call it the David Anderson syndrome! Laughing

From everything I've read, Nkemdiche got message and is taking everything more seriously this offseason. I think he's going to be a steal for them.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lavar703 wrote:
taylormade wrote:
SMH, Didn't you all learn with Nkemdiche last year? Laughing

We ain't picking McDowell, nor should we. Brantley either. We need grown men, not boys. (Wormley)


So we need a less talented JAG with our pick instead? Wormley is the most overrated prospect in this draft.
I think he's only be overrated if people say he should be taken in round 1, which is what Taylormade is suggesting.

In round 2, Wormley could be a steal. What I heard on NFL Sirius this morning from Greg Cosell is that Wormley will be a great pro. He is very strong, stout and consistent at the point of attack. He's also versatile and can play DE in a 3-4 or 4-3 and 3 technique in a 4-3.

He's not an overwhelmingly great athlete but he is one of the most consistent and reliable players in the draft. His versatility and consistency will get him drafted at some point in round 2.

Cosell summed it all up by saying that Wormley will be a starter in the NFL for 7 to 10 years and probably never be a pro bowler but he will be known as a good defensive lineman for his entire career. So, I guess he would be described in the "very good" class but not great.

Getting him in round 2 would be a steal imo if we don't take McDowell in round 1 and still need a starting DL. I really think Wormley has starring potential day 1 given the current make up of our DL. I guessthe competition to start at the 5 technique would be between Hood, Wormely and Lanier if we drafted Wormley, replace Wormley with McDowell if we take McDowell in round 1.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
It just doesn't make much sense to me at this point. If Breeland is gone next year then Fuller can start and we can draft a corner in the 2018 draft. That seems like the smarter route to take to me.


I hate to be a broken record, but I'll say it again: you do not want to put yourself in a position where you have to take a player at a given position. That only leads to either overpaying free agent talent or reaching in the draft for guys of lesser talent because you have a hole that must be filled.

A quality GM would survey what their team strengths and weaknesses are not just in the upcoming year but in the year or two to follow. This is why drafting Doctson was not a bad idea; it allowed us to absorb losing both Jackson and Garçon. Had we not wasted time and money on McGee and McClain, we would have a pair of extra picks next year.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
I'll repost this part of my 3rd to last post again because in not sure if you saw it because I was editing that post while you were writing your next post.

The reason I think taking a safety at some point has more value than corner is because:


And I'll admit I just stopped here after reading the bolded part.

Assuming the talent levels to be equal or near to equal, there is no scenario where that is a good decision.

Now, if we're talking about taking Malik Hooker or Jamal Adams over say Gareon Conley or Kevin King, then sure okay. That's because the talent level is unequal. But say a Budda Baker versus Tre'Darious White? You take the corner. Why? Because if they cannot cover, you can move them to safety. It is really hard to move a safety to corner.

Quote:
1. We have less talent at safety - especially depth - and we have questiomarks still at the position besides Swearinger and you could even argue he's a questiomark because he only had one good year and that was in a contract year.


There is a difference in talking about depth at safety and looking to replace our #2 corner (a starting position) or our #3 corner (a heavily used non-starting position).

I'm also surprised you of all people just discounted Cravens, Blackmon, Hall and Everett. Usually, you are one of the biggest boosters of guys on the roster.

Quote:
2. As you and everyone always says, the NFL is a passing league now and because of that many safeties are playing nickel/dime ILB so, getting another talented guy who could do that would really help out our defensive coverage against slot corners and tight ends. It would also improve the speed, range and tackling of our defense when we are in those looks.


Well, yes, but a slot corner is going to be worth more than a safety/nickel LB.

Quote:
So to me, where we have an issue is more at ILB/S in the nickel/dime look rather than corner. We have talent, coverage ability and speed issues when we go into our nickel/dime defense from the ILB & S positions. Drafting a safety whether that be Peppers, Baker, Williams, King, Maye, Evans, or Jones in rounds 1 through 4 will help our nickel/dime defense out immensely which, is the defense we spend 3/4 of the game playing.


Arguably, that ILB/S is filled in Cravens. Unless you believe we should be giving up on our 2nd round pick from last year? Again, that would be surprising coming from you.

Now, I'm not saying that we should discard all safety prospects. Could we use talent there? Sure because we need talent all over the defense. However, picking the best talent at positions that could assist the team the most would be a better strategy.
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